Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Rashad Khalifa never claimed that the Qur'aan was out of sync. Rather, he showed mathematical evidence that the Qur'aan has actually been preserved throughout the ages...
So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
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So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
TheJoker, the thread police police
just 'joking' laugh
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So preserved that he had to delete verses from it.
Anyways, you might notice that this thread is about Ramadan, not RK...
Oh, here we go with another guy who speaks about what he doesn't understand...
Rashad Khalifa didn't delete anything from the Qur'aan. Period. Stop making false accusations. Besides, I didn't turn this conversation into a discussion about Rashad Khalifa, your buddy Anthony did. You might notice that... For future reference, if you have something to say about Rashad Khalifa, alleging that he deleted verses from the scripture, then post your concerns in the Submitters' section, and I'm sure somebody can answer your questions...
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Peace,
Dear all, Peace,
I did some research on 01/01/01 AH, with the classical Hijri/Gregorian date convertor which you can find here http//www.islamicfinder.org/dateConversion.php?mode=hij-ger&day=1&month=1&year=1&date_result=1
result is Friday 16 July 622 C.Esearching summer solstice for that year 622
result 20 Jun
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/seasons.html?year=600&n=0searching the new moon for that year 622 after summer solstice
first new moon is 14 july
http//www.timeanddate.com/calendar/moonphases.html?year=622&n=0By this we can conclude the start of the new hijri calendar started exactly 2 days after new moon (when new moon was visible=mashud) after the summer solstice (hot month/Ramadan).
That's strange, isn't it?
Exactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
New Moon Date
1/17/622
16-Feb
18-Mar
16-Apr
16-May
14-Jun
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar begins 8/14 - Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) Hijra
11-Sep 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-Oct 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-Nov 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Dec 6. Jumada al-thani
1/6/623 7. Rajab
5-Feb 8. Sha'aban
7-Mar 9. Ramadan
5-Apr 10. Shawwal
5-May 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Jun 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
3-Jul 1. Muharram 2 AH
2-Aug 2. Safar
31-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Dec 7. Rajab
1/25/624 8. Sha'aban
24-Feb 9. Ramadan begins 2/27 March 17, 624 (17 Ramadan 2 AH) Badr Battle
24-Mar 10. Shawwal
23-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
23-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
21-Jun 1. Muharram 3 AH
21-Jul 2. Safar
20-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
18-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
18-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
16-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
16-Dec 7. Rajab
1/14/625 8. Sha'aban
13-Feb 9. Ramadan
14-Mar 10. Shawwal begins 3/16 - March 19, 625 (3 Shawwal 3 AH) Battle of Uhud
12-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
12-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
10-Jun 1. Muharram 4 AH
10-Jul 2. Safar
9-Aug 3. Rabi' al-awwal
7-Sep 4. Rabi' al-thani
7-Oct 5. Jumada al-awwal
6-Nov 6. Jumada al-thani
5-Dec 7. Rajab
1/4/626 8. Sha'aban
2-Feb 9. Ramadan
4-Mar 10. Shawwal
2-Apr 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1-May 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
31-May 1. Muharram 5 AH
29-Jun 2. Safar
29-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
27-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
26-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Nov 7. Rajab
24-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/23/627 9. Ramadan
21-Feb 10. Shawwal
23-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
21-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
20-May 1. Muharram 6 AH
19-Jun 2. Safar
18-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
16-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
15-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Nov 7. Rajab
13-Dec 8. Sha'aban
1/12/628 9. Ramadan
11-Feb 10. Shawwal
11-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
10-Apr 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
9-May 1. Muharram 7 AH
7-Jun 2. Safar
7-Jul 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Aug 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Sep 5. Jumada al-awwal
3-Oct 6. Jumada al-thani
2-Nov 7. Rajab
1-Dec 8. Sha'aban
31-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/30/629 10. Shawwal
1-Mar 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
29-Apr 1. Muharram 8 AH
28-May 2. Safar
26-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
26-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
24-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
22-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
22-Oct 7. Rajab
20-Nov 8. Sha'aban
20-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/19/630 10. Shawwal
18-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Apr 1. Muharram 9 AH
17-May 2. Safar
16-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
15-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
14-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
12-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
11-Oct 7. Rajab
10-Nov 8. Sha'aban
9-Dec 9. Ramadan
1/8/631 10. Shawwal
7-Feb 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Mar 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
7-Apr 1. Muharram 10 AH
7-May 2. Safar
5-Jun 3. Rabi' al-awwal
5-Jul 4. Rabi' al-thani
3-Aug 5. Jumada al-awwal
2-Sep 6. Jumada al-thani
1-Oct 7. Rajab
30-Oct 8. Sha'aban
29-Nov 9. Ramadan
28-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/27/632 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
25-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
26-Mar 1. Muharram 11 AH
25-Apr 2. Safar
24-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal begins 5/26 - 8 June (12 of Rabi? al-Awwal, 11 AH) prophet left (pbuh)
23-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
23-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
21-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
20-Sep 7. Rajab
19-Oct 8. Sha'aban
17-Nov 9. Ramadan
17-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/15/633 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
14-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
15-Mar 1. Muharram 12 AH
14-Apr 2. Safar
13-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
12-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
12-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
10-Aug 6. Jumada al-thani
9-Sep 7. Rajab
9-Oct 8. Sha'aban
7-Nov 9. Ramadan
7-Dec 10. Shawwal
1/5/634 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
4-Feb 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
5-Mar 1. Muharram 13 AH
3-Apr 2. Safar
3-May 3. Rabi' al-awwal
1-Jun 4. Rabi' al-thani
1-Jul 5. Jumada al-awwal
30-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
29-Aug 7. Rajab
28-Sep 8. Sha'aban
27-Oct 9. Ramadan
26-Nov 10. Shawwal
26-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/24/635 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
23-Feb 1. Muharram 14 AH
24-Mar 2. Safar
22-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
22-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
20-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
19-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
18-Aug 7. Rajab
17-Sep 8. Sha'aban
17-Oct 9. Ramadan
15-Nov 10. Shawwal
15-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/14/636 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
12-Feb 1. Muharram 15 AH
13-Mar 2. Safar
11-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
10-May 4. Rabi' al-thani
9-Jun 5. Jumada al-awwal
8-Jul 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Aug 7. Rajab
5-Sep 8. Sha'aban
5-Oct 9. Ramadan
3-Nov 10. Shawwal
3-Dec 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
1/2/637 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1-Feb 1. Muharram 16 AH
2-Mar 2. Safar
1-Apr 3. Rabi' al-awwal
30-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
29-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
28-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
27-Jul 7. Rajab
25-Aug 8. Sha'aban
24-Sep 9. Ramadan
23-Oct 10. Shawwal
22-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
22-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/21/638 1. Muharram 17 AH
19-Feb 2. Safar
21-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
20-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
19-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
17-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
17-Jul 7. Rajab
15-Aug 8. Sha'aban
13-Sep 9. Ramadan
13-Oct 10. Shawwal
11-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
11-Dec 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
1/10/639 1. Muharram 18 AH
8-Feb 2. Safar
10-Mar 3. Rabi' al-awwal
9-Apr 4. Rabi' al-thani
8-May 5. Jumada al-awwal
7-Jun 6. Jumada al-thani
6-Jul 7. Rajab
5-Aug 8. Sha'aban
3-Sep 9. Ramadan
2-Oct 10. Shawwal
1-Nov 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
30-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
30-Dec 1. Muharram 19 AH
1/28/640 2. Safar
27-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
28-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
27-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
26-May 6. Jumada al-thani
25-Jun 7. Rajab
24-Jul 8. Sha'aban
23-Aug 9. Ramadan
21-Sep 10. Shawwal
20-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
19-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
18-Dec 1. Muharram 20 AH
1/17/641 2. Safar
15-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
17-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
16-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
15-May 6. Jumada al-thani
14-Jun 7. Rajab
13-Jul 8. Sha'aban
12-Aug 9. Ramadan
11-Sep 10. Shawwal
10-Oct 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
8-Nov 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
8-Dec 1. Muharram 21 AH
1/6/642 2. Safar
5-Feb 3. Rabi' al-awwal
6-Mar 4. Rabi' al-thani
5-Apr 5. Jumada al-awwal
4-May 6. Jumada al-thani
3-Jun 7. Rajab
3-Jul 8. Sha'aban
1-Aug 9. Ramadan
31-Aug 10. Shawwal
29-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
29-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
27-Dec 2. Safar
1/25/643 3. Rabi' al-awwal
24-Feb 4. Rabi' al-thani
25-Mar 5. Jumada al-awwal PERF 558 last day of Jumada al-awwal 4/25
24-Apr 6. Jumada al-thani begins 4/26
23-May 7. Rajab
22-Jun 8. Sha'aban
21-Jul 9. Ramadan
20-Aug 10. Shawwal
19-Sep 11. Dhu al-Qi'dah
18-Oct 12. Dhu al-Hijjah
17-Nov 1. Muharram
17-Dec 2. SafarIt is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 105
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Peace,
Exactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
...It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 105
Salaam Brother
I had this feeling that you would come back with detailed calculations for us. I was waiting to hear from you and I thought you would be busy calculating to come back with solid evidence. hmm
Thank you so much and Ramadan Mubarik
Jazakh Allah Kheir -
Peace Rex/Pseudo/Eid/Nun,
Exactly date of PERF 558 can be used to rollback calculate and verify date of events.
New Moon Date
1/17/622
16-Feb
18-Mar
16-Apr
16-May
14-Jun
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
12-Aug 2. Safar begins 8/14 - Sept 9 (26 Safar AH 1) HijraAs you found out, the starting date of the new era has nothing to do with the supposed date of the Hijra. The Hijri era month 1 actually started about 56 days earlier. So the start date of this new era is a big lie that in reality has nothing to do with the event it claims to be based on. Had month 1 been based on the actual supposed date of Hijra or the closest new moon to it, then the entire era would have been pushed 2 months and this year's Ramadan would be in two months.
Moreover, your entire calculation is erroneous because it ignores that according to the same sectarian sources that you used to conjecture the dates of the various events, the intercalary month was abolished in the year when the prophet died. If you factor this then the 26 Safar date would occur about 89 days (three lunar months) earlier and your dates will be off. So you are essentially implying that the prophet always fasted on the wrong dates.
Again it is an indisputable fact that the present so-called Ramadan is 100% arbitrary and it depends on when some guy decided the era was to start and with which month it started and on the 100% manmade order of the months.
It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out for it stages that you might know (the) number (of) the years and the counting/calculating. God did not create this but in truth. He explains the verses in detail for people who have knowledge. 105
Yet you completely ignore the sun as if 105 didn't mention it. This also results in you completely ignoring 1712 as if the verse didn't exist.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam all,
I was reading this thread for 2 weeks now, and i successfully finished reading all posts (it's not that easy , 76 pages !!! ) and finally decided to post.
in my seekin of the truth, i was told that the best way to find the truth is to "reset" your ''traditional" knowledge and "free your mind" to be able to understand the signs from the great reading only.
I tell it right now, i fully agree with ayman's theory because hes posts were always so logical and so clear and whether you like it or not , all his statement and arguments have a strictly quranic basis, what is not the case for many many of you.. i don't know why you keep asking the same questions on and on.... had you understood from the very first pages, this thread wouldn't have been so long and so difficult to read for all of us ...
Also, that's why many of you skipped reading 80% of this thread, and asked the very questions discussed in 2008 topics...making this thread longer and longer and forcing ayman repeating his posts on and on..and he did it very patiently...
I think Ayman's theory would be irrelevant only if you attack it from a biased way of thinking due to traditional impact...So if you really claim that you are in this site because you follow God alone ( it means that your only source is the great reading) then you should find anything illogical to what Ayman claims. In the other hand Ayman has succefully answerd logically all of your questions without avoiding anyone. Congrats...
Last , i wanna thank you all for contributing to help me understand better than i did before..
May god help us all to find the true way and never deviate from it..P.S i'm not an english educated person because in my country (morocco) , english is not the mother tongue neither the first foreign language. So excuse my typing and grammar mistakes...
Peace all ...
"Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
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There are only two naturally occurring timers which are fixed and accurate
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Earth rotation on its axis, and hence the creation of the unit which we call day. This is the basic important calculating unit for life.
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Earth's orbit around sun, and the resulting unit of a year. Due to natural tilt in rotating axis, this provides us with seasons and important markers like summer and winter solstices. And hence, a significant event.
As these two are far apart for calculation in reference to life on earth , so He also recommended increasing /decreasing moon shapes for splitting the above bigger unit. How?
Recurrence of a similar moon shape would aproximate 30 day units.
And would approximately divide the bigger year unit into 12 intermediary units. but there is a problem,
The third reference provider (moon) has its independent celestial properties, so the info help that it provides , does not properly dove tail, and hence cannot equally divide the other basic units, from visible reference point of view As this would occur sometimes in 29 ,and another in 30 days, so God does not use this unit as a month, but uses it as a marker.
To understand , imagine, if some one tells you to complete a certain task, in a day from now That would always mean fixed 24 hours , or one complete rotation of earth on its axis where ever you are on the globe. same way unit of year would also remain fixed , one complete orbit of earth around sun from that instant.
But if it was a month , with the help of moon, It can not be inherently a fixed period of time, because there would be an error of complete one day.
This is most likely why God does not use and call the intermediary unit as A MONTH, but tells us "to take reference from one complete visible cycle of the moon" ,He means, may it be 29, or 30 , do it in what ever moon gives you in your geographical location.
He uses shahar , the full moon, which is brightest and longest duration wise, for most of his commands as a marker , ensuring "a least chance for ambiguity"
Shahar as a Month, is most probably an evolved meaning. "When people saw full moon, and again saw the full moon they mentally realised that a certain number of days have elapsed, and hence started identifying "coming of the full moon" with a certain duration passed (Month)
I sincerely hope that this effort of mine helps some one.
peace
siki
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Salam all,
I was reading this thread for 2 weeks now, and i successfully finished reading all posts (it's not that easy , 76 pages !!! ) and finally decided to post.
in my seekin of the truth, i was told that the best way to find the truth is to "reset" your ''traditional" knowledge and "free your mind" to be able to understand the signs from the great reading only.
I tell it right now, i fully agree with ayman's theory because hes posts were always so logical and so clear and whether you like it or not , all his statement and arguments have a strictly quranic basis, what is not the case for many many of you.. i don't know why you keep asking the same questions on and on.... had you understood from the very first pages, this thread wouldn't have been so long and so difficult to read for all of us ...
Also, that's why many of you skipped reading 80% of this thread, and asked the very questions discussed in 2008 topics...making this thread longer and longer and forcing ayman repeating his posts on and on..and he did it very patiently...
I think Ayman's theory would be irrelevant only if you attack it from a biased way of thinking due to traditional impact...So if you really claim that you are in this site because you follow God alone ( it means that your only source is the great reading) then you should find anything illogical to what Ayman claims. In the other hand Ayman has succefully answerd logically all of your questions without avoiding anyone. Congrats...
Last , i wanna thank you all for contributing to help me understand better than i did before..
May god help us all to find the true way and never deviate from it..P.S i'm not an english educated person because in my country (morocco) , english is not the mother tongue neither the first foreign language. So excuse my typing and grammar mistakes...
Peace all ...
"Two things are infinite the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
A very logical , well written and badly needed sum up.
welcome aboard.
handshake
siki
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This is most likely why God does not use and call the intermediary unit as A MONTH, but tells us "to take reference from one complete visible cycle of the moon" ,He means, may it be 29, or 30 , do it in what ever moon gives you in your geographical location.
Salaam
God explains a complete visible cycle from child to old age not from full strength. nope Here are the stages clearly explained
Free_Minds
40; 67. He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in stages, until it returns to being like an old curved sheath- From Crescent ? To Crescent .
Also
The Hellenic calendars, the Hebrew Lunisolar calendar and the Islamic Lunar calendar started the month with the first appearance of the thin crescent of the new moon http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonthHe uses shahar , the full moon, which is brightest and longest duration wise, for most of his commands as a marker , ensuring "a least chance for ambiguity"
Full Moon ??? Please do not use English term tell us in your own language what word do you use for full moon?
Shahar as a Month, is most probably an evolved meaning. "When people saw full moon, and again saw the full moon they mentally realised that a certain number of days have elapsed, and hence started identifying "coming of the full moon" with a certain duration passed (Month)
Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mna? < Proto-Germanic *mn?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include Ancient Greek (mn), Armenian (amis), German Monat, Old High German mnd, Middle High German mnt, Old Irish m?, and Old Slavic (msncĭ.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthI sincerely hope that this effort of mine helps some one.
peace
siki
Someone ) You mean Ayman!
yes -
A very logical , well written and badly needed sum up.
welcome aboard.
handshake
siki
Yehh welcome aboard.
handshake quickduck sun
In the past we used to get responses in support of Ayman from the eloquent ones now it?s been switched a different category. yeah
Maybe you can sum up this for quickduck that The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth .... Provided humans understand
It does not matter what hemisphere they are in. All they have to do is wait for summer.-
At summer solstice the sun is at the highest point in the sky at noon and this can be determined by measuring the length of the shadow of a tall vertical object. At summer solstice this shadow will be the shortest vertically.
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At summer solstice the sun rises at the most northern point on the horizon. During spring the sun will rise at a further northern point every day. The day when the sun rises at the most northern point will be summer solstice. Over the next days the sun will start rising more and more south from that point on the horizon. This can also be determined from the shadow of the tall vertical object. The shadow will keep moving horizontally further and further with each successive day as the summer solstice approaches. On the day of the summer solstice the shadow will be at the most extreme horizontal point and then over the next few days the shadow will start moving in the other direction horizontally with each successive day.
OR
On the other hand, the summer solstice is easily determined using a natural sundial cut from a coconut to keep track of time of day and the length of the shadow. .....It is easy to see when the summer solstice occurs because just before the summer solstice the shadow is decreasing while right after it the shadow is increasing. So it is the day when the transition happens. Afterwards you start looking for the full-moon. This full-moon will also be special because it will take a very low path accross the horizon and for the first few hours after it rises will appear reddish in color
A sundial or a gnomon or any tall vertical object can be used for the solstice determination
However if for any handicap one is unable follow the above procedure then he is a worthless human his fast is not acceptable to God he is discarded. ignore
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Moon to month Etymology
Middle English < Old English mna? < Proto-Germanic *mn?- < Proto-Indo-European *me(n)ses- (moon, month), probably from PIE base *m?- (to measure), referring to the moon?s phases as the measure of time. Cognate with moon.
? Cognates include Ancient Greek (mn), Armenian (amis), German Monat, Old High German mnd, Middle High German mnt, Old Irish m?, and Old Slavic (msncĭ.
http//en.wiktionary.org/wiki/monthSomeone ) You mean Ayman!
yesPeace Sister Farida
Speaking of German, Salat means "Salad" here ;D
rotfl -
Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 4067 and 3639.
- He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i know, 4067 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 3639 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage . THAT's a Big difference .2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 4067, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 3639 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it
Peace all
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Peace Farida, siki
Thank you for your warm welcome.to Farida, i think you, Once again , have made at least one mistake trying to find similitudes between 4067 and 3639.
- He is the One who created you from dust, then from a seed, then from an embryo, then He brings you out as a child, then He lets you reach your maturity, then you become old (person) ; and some of will have their lives terminated before this; and so that you may reach an appointed term, and perhaps so you may understand.
3639 And the moon We have measured it to appear in (descending) stages, until it returns to being like an old (ancient) curved sheath.
1 - As far as i understand, 4067 talks about the DEVELOPPMENT STAGES of a human being, as opposite to 3639 talking about a CYCLE STAGES of the moon.
None of us return to an "embryo" stage , but the moon always return to the "old curve sheet" stage .2 - as far as i understand arabic ( my mother tongue ) i can say that the the world "old" that you used in both verses, is in fact different in arabic version.
in 4067, God tells us that we may became "chuyukhan" (old person ) if not died before.
in 3639 god describes the crescent to be like an "qadeem" ( ancient ) curve sheet.i think both meaning cannot be interchanged, because the curve sheet never dies, and if you treat an old person as being "ancient" , she won't be happy with it o
Peace all
Salaam
wow your English is good you know the difference between "ancient" and old bravo
Me in development stages understand nothing brickwall -
ASA to all,
I'm visiting FM after a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have posted except that I got into an argument with my family about Fasting. Suffice to say, it didn't end well for any of us, and I've put my family into a lot of stress because of my lack of clarity about my beliefs. I have been meaning to get guidance from the Book about how to go through life in light of Allah's commandments, but I'm ashamed to say that I realised today that I have been putting off the duties of a Believer, behind the excuse of actually understanding those commandments before implementing them in my life, a definite indicator of procrastination and, worse, hypocrisy.
I guess that's why, more out of desperation than anything else, I came back to FM and searched topics about Ramadan and came across this one. I read Br. Ayman's article and whatever I could in this thread, and tried to get an understanding of all viewpoints. Before I really get into my questions and all, I'll summarize the status of Quran in my eyes at present.
I believe that the Quran is explained in detail (6114), has all explanations for a believer (1689) and contains the complete Shariah of God (Koran 4518 and 4213), as against man-made Shariah (Koran 4221).
Please understand that I have no intention to belittle anybody else's belief's or impose mine on anybody. I admit here and now, that I'm still learning and just hoping and praying that I don't go astray. Having said that, let me post my observations and questions.
(1) The meaning of the word "Shahar" has been debated about a lot in the discussion. Some say it means "Full Moon", others contend that it means "Month". Don't know if there are other meanings which have been attributed to the word, but these seem to enjoy most popularity. So, I looked up the root word used throughout the Book to see the context that it's been used in different places, namely 2185, 2194, 2197, 2217, 2226, 2234, 492, 52, 597, 92, 95, 936, 3412, 4615, 584, 654 & 973, and used both "Full Moon" and "Month" to translate. In all instances, it gave me the impression of a time frame, although in some verses, a significance was attached to these time frames, i.e. "Shahru Ramadana" (2185) and "Alshahra Alharam" (2194, 2217, 52, 597, 95). "Shahar" could very well be a time frame between two markers (e.g. two consecutive full/new moons), which would make sense, for the sake of continuing consistency and giving structure to time measurement. Whatever markers are used (Two consecutive full moons or two consecutive new moons), the time frame between them would be the same, I believe. Correct me, if I'm mistaken.
However, for the significant time frames, like "Shahru Ramadan" and "Alshahra Alharam", the starting marker will be important and understandably so. So, the real question in my mind is, what would that marker be? The New Moon? The Full Moon? The Half Cresent Moon?
The Full Moon Marker, to me, makes more "sense", mainly because it somehow incorporates all the usages of "Shahar" in one word, without skewing the context or understanding of the verses.
(2) The next issue that was discussed was the year. Two verses are used, 105 & 1712. Both mention the sun and the moon, so we can know about the number of years and the count. I personally didn't infer anything concrete from the verse which suggested that the year is either solar or lunar. From what I understand, they're both complementary.
The rising and setting of the sun helps us move from day to day. The phases of the moon give us the count from Shahar to Shahar. The seasonal cycle gives us the reference point for the start of a new year, and help us count the number of years between same seasons, e.g. 3 summers ago = 3 years ago, etc.
Don't really know how the years are consequent to the understanding of Fasting or Ramadan, but I thought I should post what I understood at present.
(3) The word "Myqat" has been discussed as well, attributing the meaning, "timing" to it. Two verses are quoted, 2189 (which has the plural, "Mawaqit" & 7142 (which has the singular, "Myqat". The translations used in the article are as follows
They ask you regarding the crescent moons, Say "They are timings for the people as well as for the debate." And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of the God that you may succeed.
And We appointed for Moussa thirty nights, and We completed with ten thus was completed the timing of his Lord, forty nights...
While looking for all instances of the word, "Myqat", I found another verse which contained the word
- And they used to Say "After we die and turn to dust and bones, we will get resurrected?"
- "As well as our forefathers?"
- Say "The people of old and the later generations,"
- "Will be summoned to an appointed meeting on a predetermined Day."
Substituting "timing" in place of "an appointed meeting" doesn't really lend itself well to the meaning of the verse. However, on the flip side, insert "appointed meeting(s)" in place of "timing(s)" in 2189 & 7142, and it still makes... sense.
Now I guess I should get to the point. I don't think that the frequency of "10 nights/days" appearing throughout the Quran necessarily means it relates to Ramadan, or at least I don't see any compelling evidence for it. God's "appointed meeting" with Prophet Musa was completed counting 30 + 10 = 40 nights. So the "completed count" was 40 nights, no? Similarly, 10 days of Hajj are quoted, and Prophet Moses agreement to complete either 8 or 10 years (2827). Note that the next verse (282 mentions him saying, whichever of the two "counts" he accomplishes, there'll be no hard feelings from the employer. So, for all we know he may have "completed" the 8-year count and left. (I'm not sure of any verse in the Book that mentions how much time he was in service before he left. If anyone know, kindly point out my mistake.)
I guess the crux is, even if one occurences in the which display various similarities, it doesn't automatically mean that they are related. Verse 37 comes to mind which mentions the danger of seeking to derive interpretations from verses similar to each other. I'm sorry if I'm out of context there, but that is my real concern.
In essence, if I believe that "Shahar Ramadan" represents a particular time frame from one Full Moon to the next and if we witness the First Full Moon which marks the start of the Shahar, then we should complete the count of the "Shahar" with the Fasting. Occam's Razor, I guess.
(4) The bone of contention, "Ramadan". Two views. Proper Noun or Common Noun?
If it is a proper noun, then it's very reasonable to assume that Ramadan was an identifiable word/month in Pre-quranic era of Arabia. Otherwise, no one would know what was being addressed, when the Message was sent down. So, now the question is, "Is there evidence of presence of the word/month of Ramadan in the Pre-quranic era and if so, is it acceptable to anybody who believes that all explanations are in the Book?"
4144 comes to mind,
And had We made it a non-Arabic Quran, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, Say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
I think If "Shahar Ramadan" was not a widely understood and used terminology in Arabia in those days, the signs would still have been unclear which would have contradicted this verse.
But, even this doesn't answer the question, "How do we know if Shahrah Ramadan then is the same Shahrah Ramadan now?" This is part I'm struggling with. Maybe I'm trying to overthink it, I don't know. But something feels missing. I guess I'm expecting a clearer distinction than this.
I look at the convention of naming in general. Everything is given a name which, more often than not, is indicative of its attributes. Take Allah's names in the Quran, for example. Every name takes root from certain attibutes, e.g. Ar-Razzaq (The Ever-Providing) takes root from Rizq (Bounty/Supply/Provisions). It would not surprise me if months, seasons and years were named in the same fashion in early Arabian times. The Gregorian Calender's September and December, for example, take root from "Septa" meaning 7 and "Deca" meaning 10 respectively. Similarly, "Shahra Ramadan" may well have taken cue from it's root "Ra-Miim-Dad", meaning "Scorching Heat", signifying the hottest month.
So, basically, even if "Shahra Ramadan" is a proper noun, it's root might indicate the nature of the time frame itself. In this case, Br. Ayman's Summer Solitice Moon "Marker" seems logical and doesn't seem to create any contradiction in the Book.
Those are my thoughts on the matter. Thanks for having the patience to read through them.
Peace
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
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"Month" does not define an accurate time period, even in existing solar calendar, If i tell you to carry out something for a month, i will have to clarify , weather 30 or 31 days. I think we could have caused less confusion by assigning 30 days to all months and making Feb, (or any month) of 35 days. But probably people back then wanted to equally distribute the shock of a single long month.
But the lunar month can not be humanly adjusted, It would never be a fixed period , and hence would keep us guessing, 29, or 30? So God can not use this term, He has to tell us start and end markers, and when ever he actually wanted to use the period a "lunar month", He used the term fasayamm shahreen. The days between two markers. what ever they turn out to be, 29 or 30.
siki
You should have explained this to God to make luner months according to your requirement so that you could adjust it as you wish, when you wish !
BTW whats the world for full moon in Urdu?
peace -
The orbit of the Earth is slowing down by a fraction of a second every year. The rotation of the Earth is also slowing each year, so they cannot be considered fixed or constant. Also, as the moon is receding from the Earth, it's orbit around the Earth is slowing.