Hot/"ramadan" Answer

ayman

Peace Eid,

In all likelihood, Umar and all the so-called Sahaba never met the prophet.

False! Read history, PERF 558, and inscription in 24 AH
http//dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18/islamic-inscription.html

Once again you ignore to read the very links that you provide

Where does it say in PERF558 or the inscription that the year is AH? Can you copy and paste the transcription and underline the word "hijri"?
Where does it say that Umar met the prophet?
Where does it say when the prophet was born or when he died?

It is obvious that you are only seeing what is in your head and not what is actually in PERF558 or the inscription.

This has ZERO to with it; summer solstice happened in the 12th month Dhu al-Hijjah in that year which was the year of the migration and the 1st month Muharram happened on July 16 that year.

Are you seriously that clueless? Why do you think the next summer solstice happened 12 months later? What is the new moon crescent on July 16? Is it the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice? YES or NO.

It has already been shown you that if you roll back PERF 558 only 10 years after the prophet (pbuh) left using new moon data the precise date of the start of new era which aligns perfectly with historical dates.

As I showed you before, this is a circular argument but you are too ignorant to see it and I am not going to repeat what I said. Go read my previous reply on this.

They knew the months (well known)

What months ?well known?? Please provide any evidence. If they were well known prior to 1 AH then please show a single manuscript or inscription dating to prior to 1AH which shows those months names. On the other hand, read the following pre 1AH inscriptions and see the well-known months mentioned

552CE (just 18 years before traditions claim the prophet was born)
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month name Zu A'allan (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but ?warkh?)

326CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month name Kaslul.

267CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month name Tammouz (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but consistent with the 552CE inscription ?yarkh?)

and could have chosen the 1st month in any year to start the era; e.g. if they picked the year of PERF 558 then our friend would have written year 1 AH instead of year 22 which shows they used a lunar calendar at the time and obliterates the hot moon...
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
...
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
The above data cannot be denied and no need to lie about receiving sheep at the end of the month.

No the dates of the lunar calendar get pushed back by 1 month every three years. If they picked the year of PERF558 as 1AH for starting a purely lunar calendar then the 22 years difference would result in Ramadhan coming 7 months later and it would have been in what is now the month of Rabii Al-Thani in the spring and Farida and you wouldn?t be so cranky. )

I hope that you can now appreciate the complete arbitrariness of your manmade calendar.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,
You keep using the translation that uses "fast therein" to justify that "shahr" means a month.
I don't mind repeat it again
original arabic verse reads falyasumhu (fast IT ), not falyasum feehi (Fast therein)..
You are free to believe that this is a small useless detail, but sorry, it makes all the difference.

"IT" links to an EVENT (shahr) while THEREIN links to a periode (month)

We are so close to find the truth if only you admit this simple Fact. Unfortunatly, ....hopeless.

Salam

Peace

Please lodge your complaint with these people,

Free_MindsA month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

noble

Peace Ayman,
we are off-topic, but i will not readily jump to conclusion regarding the close companions of Mohammed having met him if I were you.
Unless you have hard factual evidence, that is, and by the way 20 years is not such a long period.
So it is acceptable that the reporters like Bukhari & co are as easy to rule out as John, Mark, Luke and Paul in the case of Jesus, but
I will be careful with regards to Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Zeyd.
As for Abraha's stone, one single piece of evidence is not enough in my view.
Sometimes, we get blessed with "accidental" discoveries such as the Qumran caves where a lot of artifacts and scrolls were found, but alas hijacked by the Israelis (which is very strange as a good deal of those caves where on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea), and so a lot of the discoveries (most probably the most controversial ones, as they include writings of the Pentateuch at least 1000 years older than the oldest records we have) are now off limits.
So until either there is archaeological and forensic historical works being systematically done on these matters, we are currently condemned to rely on crumbs we may find that transpire as side lines from research done on subjects of older studies not always very pertinent to our interest.
Peace
Nabil

Samia

Salaam farida

So seeking Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather.

Read again word for word and you will find that Ramadan is only mentioned with regard to the revelation of the Qur?an2185 ?A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion

Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.......? this section is about the month that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birthmonth) The complete count is from crescent to crescent from birth to death that is the most natural cycle and there is no other explanation what so ever.

So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.

one day you may be able to come up with substantial evidence to prove us wrong in following the order of the months firmly established by the Prophet during his stay with us (previous generation)..

Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous has always been associated with something like the birth of a child, or death or the beginning of married life, so the middle moon, 1/2 moon cannot mean Shahra.

Once the new moon is witnessed we have arrived in that month/moon/shahr. Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 4120, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)

You missed one important definition volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope nope

"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" from (2185)

Hajj is an obligation only for those who can afford it and it requires travelling to a certain destination. There is no requirement to start it from the crescent because Allah(swt) did not want to cause hardship for those who needed time to travel to a far off place.

If Hajj was to start straight away after sighting the crescent, based on the same principle of witnessing the moon, as in Ramadan, then imagine the difficulty and chaos caused for those who must travel from far off places.

You plan your holidays and travel well in advance, but when it comes to pushing your desire over logic you overlook the most obvious.

Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.

Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.

quickduck

Peace

Please lodge your complaint with these people,

Free_MindsA month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.

Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

Here comes the grown beard imam again, hallelujah !!

P.S if only the quran was revealed in URDU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Salam

farida

No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.

Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .

Salam

Peace
You do your own dirty work.
peace

quickduck

Peace
@ Farida

Peace
You do your own dirty work.
peace

Correcting mistranslated verses are now dirty work ? i'll dare do it . And proud of it.

farida

Salaam farida

So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.
Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?
You missed one important definition volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope nope
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting
Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.

Salaam Samia
Enough of dirty tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not babble like your friend we need solid evidence not your tarnished interpretation.

However I asked you one simple Question in my post above; Reply #1436 on

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

peace
Ps Take a deep breath and read again I said fast every year only night of power 33yrs.Pay attention at two differnt situation in 2185

quickduck

Go do your own DIRTY Work

Enough of DIRTY tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not BABBLE like your friend we need solid evidence not your TARNISHED interpretation.

peace

We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.

farida

We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

belH

Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established

105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.

Peace

noble

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
rely on others or other means anyways...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
rotfl
Peace

farida

Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
rotfl
Peace

Salaam,

Of course there is no compulsion in religion.

As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
really on others or other means anyways

Exactly but Ayman theory excludes all those who have not literally seen the scorching moon so if its cloudy no fasting, if you happen to be indoor while SS moon was out there ..No Fasting
However if a toddler happens to physically witness than technically he is suppose to fast rotfl

Also ) Ayamn ...Reply #229 on September 07, 2008 Page 16
If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres rotfl rotfl rotfl
For more funny ideas please read from Page 13 onward of this very thread. laugh laugh laugh

God bless

Samia

Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established

105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.

Peace

Salaam belH
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker for time. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per
1712

We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail

Which should make you re-read verse 105 in the following way to avoid any contradiction
105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

farida

Peace Farida, all

As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
rely on others or other means anyways...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
rotfl
Peace

Salaam again brother

You can see on 16 where I argued

One can witness a month simply by being present in that month, as the skin is in touch with the atoms/molecules , water vapor mixture of gases, temperature etc., present at such a time. In this world one?s finger prints and DNA can also testify against a person, but just imagine a blind one saying to God, on the Day of Judgement, ?I did not witness the month of Ramadan?. His skin will then speak out against him

I said in my post above Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 4120, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)
But NOOOO as you can see Samia above replied

Salaam farida

As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope nope
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?

Now what can I say to the illogicality of their logic brickwall

Good night and God bless

ayman

Peace Farida,

So guest was right in his Reply #968 on page 65;
The order of the months was established firmly by the Prophet during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Umar changed the order of the months without any valid evidence. Umar is the one who fought with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon the Islam religion like you suggest using the example ?he changed the order of months?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that

This only proves that Guest and you suffer from hero-worship fetish. The same exact thing can be said about Christianity and its hero Paul
Jesus as the son of god was established firmly by the Prophet Jesus during his stay with was (previous generation) which we still follow. You are making a false accusation that Paul invented that Jesus is the son of god without any valid evidence. Paul is the one who was a desciple with the Prophet and not you. My innermost thoughts tell me that he didn?t abandon Christianity religion like you suggest using the example ?he claimed that Jesus is the son of god?. Judging your logic from the contents of your posts, I would most certainly conclude it is you who we should be careful about. Suggesting such a drastic change during the time in question would be equivalent to asking for extreme punishment. Even a sane disbeliever wouldn?t dare do that
If a much more drastic lie such as the one about Jesus can be invented, then the order of the months in an arbitrary calendar is the simplest thing to invent.

Peace,

Ayman

belH

Salaam belH
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker for time. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per
1712

We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail

Which should make you re-read verse 105 in the following way to avoid any contradiction
105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?

Samia

Salaam Samia
Enough of dirty tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not babble like your friend we need solid evidence not your tarnished interpretation.

However I asked you one simple Question in my post above; Reply #1436 on

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

peace
Ps Take a deep breath and read again I said fast every year only night of power 33yrs.Pay attention at two differnt situation in 2185

You are reverting to foul language ...and to the old bankrupt farida we know, but you seem to have forgotten that you could not then, and cannot now frighten anybody in the hope of shutting them up.You are the one who is frightened.

You really lost your nerves when you protest why I am not answering a question which is on a later post of yours, not the one I was responding to.
My post was answering yours paragraph by paragraph. If you think it was going into circles, look at yourself, not at me.
Night of power? What on earth is that? rotfl
You are the one who is need of a deep breath... and some manners.
Good bye.

ayman

Peace Guest,

Perhaps you forgot to take a good look at the picture of December 2008 full moon I cited. You will find it reddish in color. Enough said.

You sound like you think that the moon rocks actually turn reddish. Why does the moon appear reddish? If you knew then you wouldn't make such silly comment.

No, I am asking you good and intelligent questions. But you are the one who is asking irrelevant and poor questions. You have created a fictitious problem and an imaginary solution. The house you created is worst than that of the spider house.
I am in agreement with the 8th Dhu Al-Hijj. The point I was trying to make with the new moon crescent is the front door vs. the back door. The new moon looks like this ----) which is easily mapped to main entrance (welcome) or front of a house. As opposed to your crescent which looks like this -------- ( showing the back entrance.

Let's be clear. So you are in agreement that the 8th of Dhu Al-Hijjah is an arbitrary false time for "hajj" that blatantly violates 2189? So when will you perform your "hajj", please tell us?

Here is the definition of crescent A moon that is between a half moon and a new moon.
http//www.go-astronomy.com/glossary/astronomy-glossary-c.htm
That?s why I said hajj start and end in crescent moon. I am using your translation "crescent" to defeat your theory. Per the definition you don?t get 25 days of hajj. You are totally confused.
Your mapping of full moon to front door is irrelevant because it violates the definition of crescent.

The definition of the crescent is clearly given in 3639

3639

And the moon We have measured it in descending stages, until it becomes like an old curved sheath.

Doesn't sound like a half-moon since the half moon is not like an old curved sheath. As I said, the only way the crescent can be used to time the 10 day period of "hajj" is if the starting point was the full-moon and the end point was the crescent.

This off-topic. Please open another thread if you want to discuss hajj.

It is off-topic because you are clueless about the connection between "hajj" and "alash-hur al-haram" and "al-hajj" and 2189 because the arbitrary sectarian calendar has nothing to do with the real "hajj" or 2189.

The God already told us that ?The sun is never to catch up with the moon - the night and the day never deviate - each of them is floating in its own orbit (3640). You are the one who is disobeying Him.

Floating in its own orbit doesn't mean that we should ignore the sun and ignore 1712 which indicates that the year is solar. You are clearly hanging at straws and as I said, whether you like it or not, you follow a solar calendar for all practical purposes. So either stop being a hypocrite or start planting crops and wearing heavy clothes according to the purely lunar calendar.

Peace,

Ayman

Samia

peace,
therefore, we should use the Sun Phases, Day Light and Night, and the Moon Phases, the moon cycle, to measure the Year.
Now, the year consists of DAYS and 12 Months.
Is it logic to say that the Day would be measured by the Sun Phases, Day light and Night, and the Month phases to measure the month boundaries?
If you think we should use the Sun Phases to measure the Month and the Moon to measure the Day, please explain of how this could happend?

And what are the sun phases? God did not mention such a thing.

We have to agree that the year is mainly measured by the sun when the sign of the night is obsecured, i.e not apparent. We cannot speak of a full moon being (obsecured) and a crescent being apparent.
The only way to keep the moon and the sun for the measure of years is to use the "apparent" scorching moon to start the year (since this is the only moon mentioned as a marker) and the cycle of the sun to measure the length of the year.