Hot/"ramadan" Answer

Samia

Salaam Samia,

No, put it all together, both are a remembrance...

7431... she/it is not except a remembrance to the human

Salaam Eid

(7431... she/it is not except)
What does "she/it is" refer to? It cannot refer to since it precedes it. This is against universal grammar of linguistics.
is not exclusively linked to the qur'aan. It's mentioned in the quraan several times with no relation to it

verse 3843

And We gave him his people, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who have Understanding.

Now give us your honest opinion of Ayman's assertion which lead to the above off topic...

2183 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanookutiba AAalaykumu alssiyamu
O you those who believe, it is dictated on you the fasting.

2184 waAAala allatheena yuteeqoonahu
?and on those who endure it -- obviously refers back to the fasting.

2185 faman shahida minkumu alshshahra falyasumhu
?so who witnessed from you the month, so he should fast it?

While Ayman has it as?
?.so who witnessed from you the full moon, so he should abstain, the abstinence.

If we see it as "linguistically ambiguous" because two m.s nouns precede it,we have to find a reason to support one understanding against the other. For example, if you say The national banks conference this is an "ambiguous" sentence unless you can prove whether "national" refers to banks or conference. The almost equal nearness of the adjective to both nouns causes this ambiguity.
Back to your question In such a case I would personally say it refers to "shahr" since it's the nearest singular masculine to the pronoun.

My answer to the remainder of your post will follow.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Progressive1993,

You might want to read 589 and then be mature enough to admit it when you are wrong.

Peace,

Ayman

OMG... what is wrong with your inference/deduction/argumentation/logic?!?! You have proven them to be very bad in your last few posts...

589 and 581-4 are talking about different things, hence there are different methods of redeeming oneself. Are you trying to suggest that there is a contradiction in the Quran?

It is an undeniable fact, that one can fast for 2 'shahrs' (months) or feed 60 if in the situation described in 581-4.

Ayman, your theory is a like a bad word...

1426 The example of a bad word is like a tree which has been uprooted from the surface of the earth, it has no stability.

I also would like to add that you have yet failed to give proofs of monotheists in the past fasting after having witnessed 'the full moon of scorching heat'.

I think you dont want to respond to my post with red and blue because I have shown you evidence from teh OT that people in Israel fasted in the 9th month of a lunar calendar... wait.. isnt Ramadan the ninth month of the Islamic Lunar Calendar? hmm

From http//www.submission.org/fasting-bible.html

"And it came to pass in the fifth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, in the ninth month, that they proclaimed a fast before the Lord to all the people in Jerusalem, and to all the people that came from the cities of Judah unto Jerusalem." This is not a special fast proclaimed by a religious ruler, because this particular king was wicked. Nevertheless, he did follow the formality of what was practiced the month of fasting. The time given for this fasting is stated to be the ninth month.

The season of the fast in this particular year, thought by many scholars to be 604 B.C., is stated to be in the winter. Jeremiah 3622, "Now the king sat in the winter house in the ninth month and there was a fire on the hearth burning before him." Now the present Jewish calendar adds a thirteenth month from time to time to match the solar year, so that the ninth month of the civil year (used in the dates of kings' reigns) falls in May or June, summer in Palestine. If we project the lunar calendar presently used in the Middle East back in history, we find that the ninth month falls in November of the year 604 B.C. It appears that during Bible times a purely lunar calendar was used, and the ninth month was a month of fasting.

Lets see if you continue ignoring..

peace

unknownuser

In Urdu month and moon is also referred to as Ashahra.(3hahra) The cycle is mainly divided into three parts Awwal Ashahra, Thanni Ashahra and Aakhri Ashahra.

my dear

farida

Salaam again Samia & everyone,

In this thread from page 13 I have been raising the question of the blind being excluded, in Ayman?s theory of fasting based on physically witnessing the moon and so far I have not heard you view on this. Go to Ref page 16
my post Reply #230 on September 08, 2008, Ayman?s Reply #234 on September 08,

Finaly my Q in AW Reply #239 on September 08, 2008, 054000 AM page; 16

AWThere is no punishment for not fasting. But there is a reward for it.

Me And what about a blind person who is barred from receiving such a reward?

Ayman finally obliged me with his reply Page 17, Reply #242 on September 08,
You are the only one here barring them. What do you have against blind people?
They are certainly not barred but they are not obligated to fast. I hope that you can see the difference. Peace,Ayman

After that Ayman transferred his job to truthseeker11 who ignored my question and just took over Ayman?s mantra until page 30 Reply #440 on September 17, 2008 He wrote this condescending reply regarding the blind

You are confusing "witnessing" with "trusting/believing". News can be wrong too. The blind man will be trusting/believing someone else who is giving or printing the news and that cannot be classified as witnessing.

After this reply everyone has ignored these very valuable people of our world ?the blind.?

Now it?s my turn just one question
So far I have not heard what Samia has to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

Let me recap The argument was ?how can one witness a month?? so it must, here, imply the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan". And ?those among you who witnessed?. Excludes all who fail to physicaly see the scorching moon, "shahr ramadan". WHICH OF COURSE EXCLUDES THE BLIND EVEN IF THEY ARE MORE EAGER TO FAST THAN THE REST.
I see that you definitely believe that God did not disapprove of you because of menstruation, yet you assume this same God would exclude the blind from his design when it comes to fasting and the night of power?
I know my God does not leave out those without sight; those who are blinded by their desires are another matter

Before I go let me draw your attention to a very good discussion going on http//freeminds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598988.msg220254#msg220254
Your original forum member Siki raised very good question;
Isnt 56-79 talking about, "Grasping the real spirit/message within quran by only those who have a pure heart? or , you think it is physically touching/holding the written/printed script?

And don"t tell me that women going through periods cant touch/read quran?

we need to sort this out. siki

Reply #8 on Yesterday at 073001 PM
salam!

Do you mean to say that menstruating women cannot touch the quran (for which wadu is not obligatory) but can pray which requires wadu? In my opinion something is not right here.

What you are saying regarding "prohibition on physically touching quran in state of "Jannaba" , I am not too sure about it , let us invite some more views.siki Reply #11 on Today at 042547 AM

Your friend there surly understands the nature of offence towards women and I am sure you too are familiar with humiliation; a woman forbidden to fast or pray due to menstruation may feel.
Your lot have a funny logic!

368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

Thanks RH for putting it in Urdu properly ;D

quickduck

Peace Farida,
You keep using the translation that uses "fast therein" to justify that "shahr" means a month.
I don't mind repeat it again
original arabic verse reads falyasumhu (fast IT ), not falyasum feehi (Fast therein)..
You are free to believe that this is a small useless detail, but sorry, it makes all the difference.

"IT" links to an EVENT (shahr) while THEREIN links to a periode (month)

We are so close to find the truth if only you admit this simple Fact. Unfortunatly, ....hopeless.

Salam

Samia

Likewise Samia please apply logic to what was asked in numerous prior posts and tell us if this is correct...

583-4
And those who declare their wives as forbidden for them as their mothers
so freeing a neck from before that they touch each other
And he who finds not must do the abstinence two successive full-moons before they both touch each other
And he who is unable to do so should feed sixty poor

The abstinence two successive full-moons means wait until next 98%, 99%, 100% full moon then fast to next non-identifiable 98%, 99%, 100% full moon which is about a month +/- a few days for error.

Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!

Does he commence fasting? YES!
Can he sleep with his wife until the next full moon? NO!
Does feeding 60 poor equate to two months fasting? YES!

Salaam Eid

I do not see that there's a question of logic here. He can wait for the full moon and start fasting; just like a divorcee has to wait until her first menstruation and then count her days. And like the mestruating woman,he has to wait and not sleep with his wife until the fasting is over.
3- Has God told us that a day of fasting = feeding 1 poor? I can only agree with you if you show me this equation.

Therefore, the abstinence of one full-moon is ZERO days!

Yes, that's why we need to be told, in this case, how many days to fast after having witnessed the shahr. If not, then there's no fasting. This number of days is usually not told when (two consecutive shahrs) are mentioned, since we already have a definitive period.

ayman

Peace Eid,

In all likelihood, Umar and all the so-called Sahaba never met the prophet.

False! Read history, PERF 558, and inscription in 24 AH
http//dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/11/18/islamic-inscription.html

Once again you ignore to read the very links that you provide

Where does it say in PERF558 or the inscription that the year is AH? Can you copy and paste the transcription and underline the word "hijri"?
Where does it say that Umar met the prophet?
Where does it say when the prophet was born or when he died?

It is obvious that you are only seeing what is in your head and not what is actually in PERF558 or the inscription.

This has ZERO to with it; summer solstice happened in the 12th month Dhu al-Hijjah in that year which was the year of the migration and the 1st month Muharram happened on July 16 that year.

Are you seriously that clueless? Why do you think the next summer solstice happened 12 months later? What is the new moon crescent on July 16? Is it the first new moon crescent after the summer solstice? YES or NO.

It has already been shown you that if you roll back PERF 558 only 10 years after the prophet (pbuh) left using new moon data the precise date of the start of new era which aligns perfectly with historical dates.

As I showed you before, this is a circular argument but you are too ignorant to see it and I am not going to repeat what I said. Go read my previous reply on this.

They knew the months (well known)

What months ?well known?? Please provide any evidence. If they were well known prior to 1 AH then please show a single manuscript or inscription dating to prior to 1AH which shows those months names. On the other hand, read the following pre 1AH inscriptions and see the well-known months mentioned

552CE (just 18 years before traditions claim the prophet was born)
http//www.mnh.si.edu/epigraphy/e_pre-islamic/fig04_sabaean.htm
Month name Zu A'allan (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but ?warkh?)

326CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/namarah.html
Month name Kaslul.

267CE
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/History/Islam/Inscriptions/raqush.htm
Month name Tammouz (notice also the word for ?month? is not ?shahr? but consistent with the 552CE inscription ?yarkh?)

and could have chosen the 1st month in any year to start the era; e.g. if they picked the year of PERF 558 then our friend would have written year 1 AH instead of year 22 which shows they used a lunar calendar at the time and obliterates the hot moon...
14-Jul 1. Muharram begins 7/16
...
28-Nov 1. Muharram 22 AH
The above data cannot be denied and no need to lie about receiving sheep at the end of the month.

No the dates of the lunar calendar get pushed back by 1 month every three years. If they picked the year of PERF558 as 1AH for starting a purely lunar calendar then the 22 years difference would result in Ramadhan coming 7 months later and it would have been in what is now the month of Rabii Al-Thani in the spring and Farida and you wouldn?t be so cranky. )

I hope that you can now appreciate the complete arbitrariness of your manmade calendar.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace Farida,
You keep using the translation that uses "fast therein" to justify that "shahr" means a month.
I don't mind repeat it again
original arabic verse reads falyasumhu (fast IT ), not falyasum feehi (Fast therein)..
You are free to believe that this is a small useless detail, but sorry, it makes all the difference.

"IT" links to an EVENT (shahr) while THEREIN links to a periode (month)

We are so close to find the truth if only you admit this simple Fact. Unfortunatly, ....hopeless.

Salam

Peace

Please lodge your complaint with these people,

Free_MindsA month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

noble

Peace Ayman,
we are off-topic, but i will not readily jump to conclusion regarding the close companions of Mohammed having met him if I were you.
Unless you have hard factual evidence, that is, and by the way 20 years is not such a long period.
So it is acceptable that the reporters like Bukhari & co are as easy to rule out as John, Mark, Luke and Paul in the case of Jesus, but
I will be careful with regards to Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Zeyd.
As for Abraha's stone, one single piece of evidence is not enough in my view.
Sometimes, we get blessed with "accidental" discoveries such as the Qumran caves where a lot of artifacts and scrolls were found, but alas hijacked by the Israelis (which is very strange as a good deal of those caves where on the Jordan side of the Dead Sea), and so a lot of the discoveries (most probably the most controversial ones, as they include writings of the Pentateuch at least 1000 years older than the oldest records we have) are now off limits.
So until either there is archaeological and forensic historical works being systematically done on these matters, we are currently condemned to rely on crumbs we may find that transpire as side lines from research done on subjects of older studies not always very pertinent to our interest.
Peace
Nabil

Samia

Salaam farida

So seeking Leilat Al Qadr is linked to hot weather, as the Quran was revealed, on that night, in the phase of the cycle where that night falls in the month of hot weather.

Read again word for word and you will find that Ramadan is only mentioned with regard to the revelation of the Qur?an2185 ?A month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion

Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein.......? this section is about the month that comes once in every 12 moon cycles.(like a birthmonth) The complete count is from crescent to crescent from birth to death that is the most natural cycle and there is no other explanation what so ever.

So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.

one day you may be able to come up with substantial evidence to prove us wrong in following the order of the months firmly established by the Prophet during his stay with us (previous generation)..

Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?

Shiin-ha-Ra = make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous has always been associated with something like the birth of a child, or death or the beginning of married life, so the middle moon, 1/2 moon cannot mean Shahra.

Once the new moon is witnessed we have arrived in that month/moon/shahr. Those who believe in literally witnessing the moon can do so if they wish and those who are unable to see are present in that month which is equal to witnessing as per verses 4120, 21, 22, it is confirmed that the skin is capable of witnessing and will testify(DNA prints verify that)

You missed one important definition volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope nope

"God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship" from (2185)

Hajj is an obligation only for those who can afford it and it requires travelling to a certain destination. There is no requirement to start it from the crescent because Allah(swt) did not want to cause hardship for those who needed time to travel to a far off place.

If Hajj was to start straight away after sighting the crescent, based on the same principle of witnessing the moon, as in Ramadan, then imagine the difficulty and chaos caused for those who must travel from far off places.

You plan your holidays and travel well in advance, but when it comes to pushing your desire over logic you overlook the most obvious.

Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting

The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record.

Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.

quickduck

Peace

Please lodge your complaint with these people,

Free_MindsA month, marked by heat, in which the Qur'an was revealed; as a guide to the people and a clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Therefore, whoever of you witnesses the month, then let him fast therein. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.

Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .

I knew already that you cannot see beyond that
368 We have placed shackles around their necks, up to their chins, so that they are forced in direction.
36;9 And We have placed a barrier in front of them, and a barrier behind them, thus We shielded them so they cannot see.
3610 And whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.

peace

Here comes the grown beard imam again, hallelujah !!

P.S if only the quran was revealed in URDU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Salam

farida

No matter if this translation is RK's , Free-minds', Ayman's or Farida's . therein = feehi . hence, this translation is false and should be corrected.

Can you do me a favor ? you seem to have a huge knowledge on forum matters, can you please tell free-minds translators to correct this . Of course if you agree that therein = feehi .

Salam

Peace
You do your own dirty work.
peace

quickduck

Peace
@ Farida

Peace
You do your own dirty work.
peace

Correcting mistranslated verses are now dirty work ? i'll dare do it . And proud of it.

farida

Salaam farida

So the only description I know for this month is that it is "marked by heat". How can I witness it then when this Ramadan is "marked by cold"? This will not be the "ramadan" described in the quraan. To respect its description AND keep the lunar calendar, I have to fast it every 33 years, just the way you suggest we should seek Leilatul qadr, which, by the way, is closely linked to "Ramadaan", however we understand ramadaan.
Why are you sure that you are following what the prophet established for you when it's neither in the quraan nor in hadith which you do not even accept?
You missed one important definition volumenous wide woman.
Who is talking of middle,1/2 moon? Even this 1/2moon is more easily "detected" than a crescent
All these events do not need an extra way of declaration.You know them without using a detective (telescope in your case to see the crescent).
As for the witnessing of skins, this is mentiond in context of the Day of Judgeent, so it concerns God, not humans. I do not need to say that God describbes Himself as "Shaheed". You cannot say that you "tashhad" a skin, to mean that you can know its DNA! Even with a microscope nope
Are you really convinced by this poor argument?
The verse I asked you about does not have a commandment requiring quoting 2185. It's a question and answer. Why can't we equally use 2185 when we believe that God is "commanding us to witness a crescent"? In fact, hajj is not a "religious" obligation, just like timing for people in their affairs. Since you know it's a hardship to people to observe the crescent, and God does not want to bring us hardship, it's more logical that He does not make it a condition on a religious obligation. Your logic is really contradictory here. This is just like traditionalists circular arguemnet when asked why women have to abstinate from fasting and salaat when God answered a question to people concerning menustations and did not mention abstention from salaat nor fasting
Since you know that a "sana/ year" is defined according to the quraan from harvest to harvest, and since the 12"months" of the lunar calender do not fulfill this definition, therefore the 12 "months" in God's record mentioned in this verse do not equal a lunar year.

Salaam Samia
Enough of dirty tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not babble like your friend we need solid evidence not your tarnished interpretation.

However I asked you one simple Question in my post above; Reply #1436 on

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

peace
Ps Take a deep breath and read again I said fast every year only night of power 33yrs.Pay attention at two differnt situation in 2185

quickduck

Go do your own DIRTY Work

Enough of DIRTY tactics!!! What you are doing above is taking this thread in circles to confuse everyone. Please do not BABBLE like your friend we need solid evidence not your TARNISHED interpretation.

peace

We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.

farida

We all should go have a bath or take a shower as farida started to see everyone and everything dirty in here.

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

belH

Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established

105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.

Peace

noble

What YOU have to say about the blind not being obliged to fast ???

Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
rely on others or other means anyways...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
rotfl
Peace

farida

Peace Farida, all
No one is obliged to do anything.
No one is putting a gun to anyone's temple and saying do so , or think so.
It's all in our heads, mental filters, so dug in that we have great difficulties
being open to dialogue.
...
Storm in a tea cup I say... lol
rotfl
Peace

Salaam,

Of course there is no compulsion in religion.

As for the blind, they can witness ramadan as any blind will do, through the other senses
Allah has given them (they can ask the question, they can feel the heat, they can read the news in braille... etc)
So if they wish to fast they can, and they can witness it too, though not visually as most of us do not by the way as we
really on others or other means anyways

Exactly but Ayman theory excludes all those who have not literally seen the scorching moon so if its cloudy no fasting, if you happen to be indoor while SS moon was out there ..No Fasting
However if a toddler happens to physically witness than technically he is suppose to fast rotfl

Also ) Ayamn ...Reply #229 on September 07, 2008 Page 16
If you are nearer to the tropic of cancer then the scorching full moon would be with the northern hemisphere. If you are nearer to the tropic of capricon then the scorching full moon would be with the southern hemisphere. I think that if you are exactly on the equator then you have the choice to fast either with the northern or the southern hemispheres rotfl rotfl rotfl
For more funny ideas please read from Page 13 onward of this very thread. laugh laugh laugh

God bless

Samia

Peace all,
To Ayman and Samia, the following verse is very well established

105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance, and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.

Is this not enough to end this debate, if you truly believe in God's Quran.

Peace

Salaam belH
No one is denying the "moon" as a marker for time. But do not deny the specificty of the sun in counting the years as per
1712

We have made the Night and the Day as two (of Our) Signs the Sign of the Night have We obscured, while the Sign of the Day We have made to enlighten you; that ye may seek bounty from your Lord, and that ye may know the number and count of the years all things have We explained in detail

Which should make you re-read verse 105 in the following way to avoid any contradiction
105
He is the One who has made the sun a radiance and the moon a light, and He has measured its phases, that you may know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except with the truth. He clarifies the revelations for a people who know.