38:44 - 1400 years of misinterpretation solved?

Mazhar

Do you have a Classical Arabic dictionary reference for "and do not refrain/abstain"?

Searching Classical Arabic dictionary becomes quite taxing for a non Arab like me. It is domain of Sister Samia. I can refer to Lane's Lexicon. He has mentioned this.

Wakas

I found it in Lane's Lexicon, thanks. I guess if you interpret it as cutting/excising sloughs, then "and do not refrain/abstain" does fit ok, as one might be hesitant in doing this, hence the reinforcement.

Samia

I used to support this understanding

Thus, it could mean he is ordered to take this plant and set up a tent, as this

But now I agree with Mazhar's rendition.

This is the first meaning of "shaytan" from lisaanul 3arab

.
shaytan a serpent with a comb

Also, verse 3843 rejects the story of an unsupportive wife
And We bestowed on him (again) his household and therewith the like thereof, a mercy from Us, and a memorial for men of understanding.

yadrib bi mix, said for more than three things.
from lisaanul 3arab
.
I would say make a small mat which would be used to immobilize the leg.
"hanatha" has two meanings to sin and to be embarrassed.

My understanding would be take a bundle of straws, make a mat out of it (and use it to immobilize your leg) and don't be embarrassed.
This is a technique used in immobilizing dislocated bones and bone fractures in some parts of Africa and in Sudan.

Wakas

peace Samia,

Do you have a comment on the following

Does the "hi" in "bihi" refer to DGhTh only or could it refer to hand/yad or both?

why use the singular "yad/hand"? Is it common in Arabic/Quranic expressions to state one hand when it is likely both would be needed, e.g. wrapping a bandage (unless the bite was on the hand/arm) or if it is rare to say one hand when two are needed, then it is likely it does indeed mean one hand which would make applying pressure the more likely.

As a side note, I found this here

The main bite sites were foot (24%), leg (23%), hand (22%) and ankle (21%).

Mazhar

This is the first meaning of "shaytan" from lisaanul 3arab

.
shaytan a serpent with a comb

Thanks Sister,

so it is a peculiar snake, now called cobra . And then appearance wise it is equated/examplified
.
Cobras are characterized by inflatable neck hoods. The hood is the flap of skin behind the head of cobras, which can be used to make the snake appear bigger.

Wakas

Update

Sister Samia kindly clarified "yad" is feminine. The source I used incorrectly said masculine, but I never checked PRL ;D (Before anyone says anything, yes, I am aware of the irony)
Therefore, putting a pressure bandage, or covering to prevent infection is the most likely option in my view.

Furthermore, I did a preliminary check of all other occurrences, about 350, of the word forms in question of Nun-Saad-Ba, and Ayn-Thal-Ba, and there is no association of al shaytan being the source of "nusb" or "AAathab". Making 3841 unique for this, strongly implying a different understanding.

I was impressed, so I decided to do a check on if there was any other occurrence in which al shaytan is the one doing the actual afflicting/touching/Miim-Siin-Siin, i.e. like in the story of Job, and there is only one example, 2275. Knowing this, now read that verse again. ;D

Mazhar

I was impressed, so I decided to do a check on if there was any other occurrence in which al shaytan is the one doing the actual afflicting/touching/Miim-Siin-Siin, i.e. like in the story of Job, and there is only one example, 2275. Knowing this, now read that verse again.

The comparison drawn in 2275 is of psychie/physical condition of two persons. If one could watch the reaction and psyhological condition of a man whom Cobra has touched, he will certainly come to the conclusion that here too mention is not of well known Shaitan but Cobra.

As for money matters are concerned the actual Shaitan does not but

Those who eat exorbitant gains on capital, they cannot stand except in the manner one such person stands whom cobra has made stupefied/bushed by his touch.

Mazhar

I may add that
is quite meaninful. Perhaps Cobra does not discharge all the venom in one bite.

Wakas

Those who consume usury, they do not stand but as one might stand whom the serpent/cobra confounded* from his touch. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally.

i.e. their footing/position/mentality/reasoning is weak, in disorder, corrupted etc.

*Kh-Ba-Tay = To strike/beat vehemently (e.g. with the fore foot hind foot), to prosecute, to be confounded/perplexed, to journey without
direction, hold communion with someone, touch with a hurt so as to corrupt/disorder and render one insane, to be agitated/disturbed,
to be still/motionless.

http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Another example of the logical and word precision par excellence of AQ. The traditional version of 3844 is officially smashed in my view.

Rami

Interesting that Shaytan refers to a type of serpent.

Gen 31 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

236 Then did Satan(serpent?) make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity* between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

*Gen 315 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Nice.

unknownuser

Interesting that Shaytan refers to a type of serpent.

Gen 31 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

236 Then did Satan(serpent?) make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity* between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

*Gen 315 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Nice.

......but...... if...... and...... so......not... hypno

Wakas

Re 236

Rami, perhaps you didn't understand my findings. What I am suggesting is that when AQ wants al shaytan to mean serpent/cobra, it tells us. How it does this is by its word precision, e.g. 3841 and 2275 are the only occurrences in which shaytan does the touching/Miim-Siin-Siin (i.e. physical). Secondly, 3841 is the only occurrence in which al shaytan is the source of NSB and 3ThB (again, physical, especially the latter term), making it unique, suggesting its meaning is unique in this case. We can also couple this with knowledge of the usual methodology applied by "shaytan" (loosely translates as opposing force, be it from oneself or elsewhere) which is false promises, deceit, temptation, delusion etc thus, we can see that these two occurrences are different, i.e. al shaytan is applying a different methodology here, so the obvious question becomes why? The answer to this lies in the findings in this thread, in my view.

But, it is interesting there is a correlation in the Bibilical and mythological stories involving satan being a serpent, no doubt because that was/is one of its possible word meanings and was/is used as such sometimes. And some no doubt interpreted it as such.

Another interesting discovery is that even in the story of Job in The Bible, "satan" is referenced, Chapter 27 " So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot even unto his crown." Interestingly, it says after this part that his friends came to him, and implies he was in pain/grief and in a recovery period, after which he showed signs of despair, like giving up, but eventually his condition was restored. These elements fit with what AQ is saying.

As I said to you in another thread, it is very possible AQ restores/corrects myths, the story of Job being one of them.

It seems to suggest Job may have been a man with many things/blessings, but things happened, and he had less and less and his lowest point was when his physical condition had been affected and was perhaps near death, but even at this low he did not neglect calling upon his Lord in humility, then his condition was restored and blessed again it seems. Reminds me of the wisdom success is not a measure of how high you bounce, it is a measure of how high you bounce after you've hit the ground.

In any case, I just thought it could also be "and do not incline to falsehood" as one might be a bit delusional or not think straight after a serpent bite (as proven by the other occurrence in AQ), hence the command in 3844. Maybe that is why he was quiet for 7 days in The Biblical version
http//www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm

FAR

When you hit a woman with the suggestion of divorce... it's going to hurt.

Wakas

peace all,

Very recently, I realised that it could mean "and take in/by/with your hand a handful and DRB with it" refers to the cool water/spring/bath.

The word "handful" (Dighthan) can be 'whatever that is collected or bundled together and grasped with the hand', and it also means "washed without cleansing".

Further, the "it" refers to a masculine, and the closest preceding masculine is the cool water/spring/bath.

In other words, a perfect fit.

I'm surprised I missed it, so obvious in hindsight.

Mazhar

peace all,

Very recently, I realised that it could mean "and take in/by/with your hand a handful and DRB with it" refers to the cool water/spring/bath.

The word "handful" (Dighthan) can be 'whatever that is collected or bundled together and grasped with the hand', and it also means "washed without cleansing".

Further, the "it" refers to a masculine, and the closest preceding masculine is the cool water/spring/bath.

In other words, a perfect fit.

I'm surprised I missed it, so obvious in hindsight.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/038.%20Suad/38.42.gif
He was asked "You prod with heel of your foot. . This is made suitable for washing , it gives cooling effect , and is drinkable".

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/038.%20Suad/38.44.gif
"and take with your hand in the manner of gripping in palm whereby rub/make incisions-open/exposed/ separated with it/washing water, and you should not delay/show any lethargy/refrain in quickly doing it".

"Waw" conects it with what had sprung, referred as "haaza-this" which was called as passive participle of Form-VIII- made suitable for washing having qualities of being cool, soothing effect and drinkable too. Pronoun suffixed to preposition "Bi" refers to it, as correctly stated by Wakas.

Wakas

I have updated quran434.com

I strongly recommend everyone to read section 1, parts 13 and 14.

The internal structure and coherence of The Quran in these two cases is quite remarkable.