38:44 - 1400 years of misinterpretation solved?
-
Thanks, but which dictionary, and which word are you using for cobra or cobra bite?
No brother; I am referring to 3841 read with 3765 to restrict to cobra only. The first aid is to immediately wash the point where cobra has touched and drink water to keep the blood diluted and to rub/make incisions-open/make evident the wound and keep washing it.
-
No brother; I am referring to 3841 read with 3765 to restrict to cobra only. The first aid is to immediately wash the point where cobra has touched and drink water to keep the blood diluted and to rub/make incisions-open/make evident the wound and keep washing it.
Peace
Good point Mazhar ,thanks a lot.
Regards -
peace Mazhar, sa'adah, all,
I often wondered how would the devil/Shaytan afflict a human being with a material affliction such as disease?
It would be interesting to study further to see if there are any other examples in The Quran of such a thing. If not, this would give weight to the view of the meaning of serpant/cobra.
No brother; I am referring to 3841 read with 3765 to restrict to cobra only. The first aid is to immediately wash the point where cobra has touched and drink water to keep the blood diluted and to rub/make incisions-open/make evident the wound and keep washing it.
Thank you for clarifying. I think your suggestion is very possible. I did a little research on how to deal with a snake bite, and here is what I found
All sites recommend remaining calm
Some sites recommend washing the wound
Some sites recommend applying a pressure bandage of sorts (to reduce venom spreading in the bloodstream), or if the wound is spurting blood to apply pressure
The venom is apparently excreted in the urine, thus drinking water would indeed cause more urine, hence potentially quicker washout. Drinking water may also be related to relieving symptoms such as fever and/or helping to calm oneself.
All sites that I read do not recommend cutting the wound to bleed it (as it is not effective and increases risk of infection), so this part of your understanding may not be correct.
Interestingly after being told to wash and drink, a person would then apply the pressure bandage, which fits the sequence, taken from 3844
And take with your hand a bundle of something/grass/stalks, then cast / heal / fashion / mould / put a cover with it...
Also, interestingly, the root Daad-Ghayn-Thaa can actually mean "wash without cleansing" or "felt (by hand for a certain purpose)", thus could a possible translation be the following?
And take/hold with your hand a feel, and press/stamp with it... (i.e. using one's own hand as a pressure bandage)
OR
And take with your hand washing, and put forth / rub / collide with itDoes the "hi" in "bihi" refer to DGhTh only or could it refer to hand/yad or both?
It is also possible the cobra spat venom in the eyes, although with the use of massaniya/touched I'm not sure.
The only remaining question for me is why add the "wala tahnath"? It could just be a general advice for when recovered "and do not fail in your oath/duty", "do not incline towards falsehood".
Just some thoughts.
?
-
The only remaining question for me is why add the "wala tahnath"? It could just be a general advice for when recovered "and do not fail in your oath/duty", "do not incline towards falsehood".
In the context and the flow of the sentence, "and do not refrain/abstain" from doing what you are told.
In Cobra bite cases incision is perhaps made and sloughs are excised.
-
peace Mazhar, all,
Do you have a Classical Arabic dictionary reference for "and do not refrain/abstain"?
I just thought that it might seem reasonable to say "and do not fail in your oath/duty" after recovered, because Job was likely travelling in the land when this happened to him, probably spreading God's message, thus God is effectively telling him to not be deterred from continuing in this once recovered. This would make it a good fit.
In Cobra bite cases incision is perhaps made and sloughs are excised.
Whilst that is a possibility, it would mean the person requiring to wash it again, which doesn't fit well with the sequence or Arabic. I think the applying of pressure or bandage is the more likelier of meanings with the present information.
In addition to my above question on the "hi" in "bihi", one other question which may shed light on which option of these it is is why use the singular "yad/hand"? Is it common in Arabic/Quranic expressions to state one hand when it is likely both would be needed, e.g. wrapping a bandage (unless the bite was on the hand/arm) or if it is rare to say one hand when two are needed, then it is likely it does indeed mean one hand which would make applying pressure the more likely.Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Arabic can help with this point.
-
-
I used to support this understanding
Thus, it could mean he is ordered to take this plant and set up a tent, as this
But now I agree with Mazhar's rendition.
This is the first meaning of "shaytan" from lisaanul 3arab
.
shaytan a serpent with a combAlso, verse 3843 rejects the story of an unsupportive wife
And We bestowed on him (again) his household and therewith the like thereof, a mercy from Us, and a memorial for men of understanding.yadrib bi mix, said for more than three things.
from lisaanul 3arab
.
I would say make a small mat which would be used to immobilize the leg.
"hanatha" has two meanings to sin and to be embarrassed.My understanding would be take a bundle of straws, make a mat out of it (and use it to immobilize your leg) and don't be embarrassed.
This is a technique used in immobilizing dislocated bones and bone fractures in some parts of Africa and in Sudan. -
peace Samia,
Do you have a comment on the following
Does the "hi" in "bihi" refer to DGhTh only or could it refer to hand/yad or both?
why use the singular "yad/hand"? Is it common in Arabic/Quranic expressions to state one hand when it is likely both would be needed, e.g. wrapping a bandage (unless the bite was on the hand/arm) or if it is rare to say one hand when two are needed, then it is likely it does indeed mean one hand which would make applying pressure the more likely.
As a side note, I found this here
The main bite sites were foot (24%), leg (23%), hand (22%) and ankle (21%).
-
This is the first meaning of "shaytan" from lisaanul 3arab
.
shaytan a serpent with a combThanks Sister,
so it is a peculiar snake, now called cobra . And then appearance wise it is equated/examplified
.
Cobras are characterized by inflatable neck hoods. The hood is the flap of skin behind the head of cobras, which can be used to make the snake appear bigger. -
Update
Sister Samia kindly clarified "yad" is feminine. The source I used incorrectly said masculine, but I never checked PRL ;D (Before anyone says anything, yes, I am aware of the irony)
Therefore, putting a pressure bandage, or covering to prevent infection is the most likely option in my view.Furthermore, I did a preliminary check of all other occurrences, about 350, of the word forms in question of Nun-Saad-Ba, and Ayn-Thal-Ba, and there is no association of al shaytan being the source of "nusb" or "AAathab". Making 3841 unique for this, strongly implying a different understanding.
I was impressed, so I decided to do a check on if there was any other occurrence in which al shaytan is the one doing the actual afflicting/touching/Miim-Siin-Siin, i.e. like in the story of Job, and there is only one example, 2275. Knowing this, now read that verse again. ;D
-
I was impressed, so I decided to do a check on if there was any other occurrence in which al shaytan is the one doing the actual afflicting/touching/Miim-Siin-Siin, i.e. like in the story of Job, and there is only one example, 2275. Knowing this, now read that verse again.
The comparison drawn in 2275 is of psychie/physical condition of two persons. If one could watch the reaction and psyhological condition of a man whom Cobra has touched, he will certainly come to the conclusion that here too mention is not of well known Shaitan but Cobra.
As for money matters are concerned the actual Shaitan does not but
Those who eat exorbitant gains on capital, they cannot stand except in the manner one such person stands whom cobra has made stupefied/bushed by his touch.
-
Those who consume usury, they do not stand but as one might stand whom the serpent/cobra confounded* from his touch. That is because they have said "Trade is the same as usury." While God has made trade lawful, and He has forbidden usury. Whoever has received understanding from His Lord and ceases, then he will be forgiven for what was before this and his case will be with God. But whoever returns, then they are the people of the Fire, in it they will abide eternally.
i.e. their footing/position/mentality/reasoning is weak, in disorder, corrupted etc.
*Kh-Ba-Tay = To strike/beat vehemently (e.g. with the fore foot hind foot), to prosecute, to be confounded/perplexed, to journey without
direction, hold communion with someone, touch with a hurt so as to corrupt/disorder and render one insane, to be agitated/disturbed,
to be still/motionless.http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Another example of the logical and word precision par excellence of AQ. The traditional version of 3844 is officially smashed in my view.
-
Interesting that Shaytan refers to a type of serpent.
Gen 31 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
236 Then did Satan(serpent?) make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity* between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
*Gen 315 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Nice.
-
Interesting that Shaytan refers to a type of serpent.
Gen 31 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
236 Then did Satan(serpent?) make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity* between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."
*Gen 315 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Nice.
......but...... if...... and...... so......not... hypno
-
Re 236
Rami, perhaps you didn't understand my findings. What I am suggesting is that when AQ wants al shaytan to mean serpent/cobra, it tells us. How it does this is by its word precision, e.g. 3841 and 2275 are the only occurrences in which shaytan does the touching/Miim-Siin-Siin (i.e. physical). Secondly, 3841 is the only occurrence in which al shaytan is the source of NSB and 3ThB (again, physical, especially the latter term), making it unique, suggesting its meaning is unique in this case. We can also couple this with knowledge of the usual methodology applied by "shaytan" (loosely translates as opposing force, be it from oneself or elsewhere) which is false promises, deceit, temptation, delusion etc thus, we can see that these two occurrences are different, i.e. al shaytan is applying a different methodology here, so the obvious question becomes why? The answer to this lies in the findings in this thread, in my view.
But, it is interesting there is a correlation in the Bibilical and mythological stories involving satan being a serpent, no doubt because that was/is one of its possible word meanings and was/is used as such sometimes. And some no doubt interpreted it as such.
Another interesting discovery is that even in the story of Job in The Bible, "satan" is referenced, Chapter 27 " So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot even unto his crown." Interestingly, it says after this part that his friends came to him, and implies he was in pain/grief and in a recovery period, after which he showed signs of despair, like giving up, but eventually his condition was restored. These elements fit with what AQ is saying.
As I said to you in another thread, it is very possible AQ restores/corrects myths, the story of Job being one of them.
It seems to suggest Job may have been a man with many things/blessings, but things happened, and he had less and less and his lowest point was when his physical condition had been affected and was perhaps near death, but even at this low he did not neglect calling upon his Lord in humility, then his condition was restored and blessed again it seems. Reminds me of the wisdom success is not a measure of how high you bounce, it is a measure of how high you bounce after you've hit the ground.
In any case, I just thought it could also be "and do not incline to falsehood" as one might be a bit delusional or not think straight after a serpent bite (as proven by the other occurrence in AQ), hence the command in 3844. Maybe that is why he was quiet for 7 days in The Biblical version
http//www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et2701.htm -
peace all,
Very recently, I realised that it could mean "and take in/by/with your hand a handful and DRB with it" refers to the cool water/spring/bath.
The word "handful" (Dighthan) can be 'whatever that is collected or bundled together and grasped with the hand', and it also means "washed without cleansing".
Further, the "it" refers to a masculine, and the closest preceding masculine is the cool water/spring/bath.
In other words, a perfect fit.
I'm surprised I missed it, so obvious in hindsight.
