My question is why must the innocent suffer?
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Salaam,
when I say innocent, I do not mean hardships of life, I mean the suffering of babies, the starvation of millions of children, the ignorant world each child is forced to enter, and yes this is a question, why do Muslims allow this to exist, Muslims would not, why would Allah allow this suffering without redress, why do the innocent suffer?
You could extend that question to "Why does anyone suffer?" Everyone is innocent to some degree
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peace AN,
Your question is a philosophical one, and has been asked by millions throughout the world perhaps since the dawn of mankind, including myself. The answer (or rather, my answer), much to my surprise was rather simple free choice.
Let me know your thoughts.
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Salaam,
free will would apply to conscious decision, while I refer to the truly innocent, without any choice as to the misery they suffer, a small child starving to death alone, a child tortured to death over months, children forced to work as prostitutes from three or four, so raped day after day, children blinded or maimed to work as beggars, this demonstrates no free will, it is the will of a slave master or Jinn (hidden) sovereign, the thoughts, development, will of the child is without power to alter the reality they suffer.
Religious Muslims show scant regard, while practical Muslims are so few in number as to have little physical impact, the question remains, why must the innocent suffer, why has Allah manifest a system to allow such massive misery?
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Salaam,
free will would apply to conscious decision, while I refer to the truly innocent, without any choice as to the misery they suffer, a small child starving to death alone, a child tortured to death over months, children forced to work as prostitutes from three or four, so raped day after day, children blinded or maimed to work as beggars, this demonstrates no free will, it is the will of a slave master or Jinn (hidden) sovereign, the thoughts, development, will of the child is without power to alter the reality they suffer.
Religious Muslims show scant regard, while practical Muslims are so few in number as to have little physical impact, the question remains, why must the innocent suffer, why has Allah manifest a system to allow such massive misery?
This is something that I find hard to grasp too but my belief is that the end will definitely justify the means peace
PEACE
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Salaam,
free will would apply to conscious decision, while I refer to the truly innocent, without any choice as to the misery they suffer, a small child starving to death alone, a child tortured to death over months, children forced to work as prostitutes from three or four, so raped day after day, children blinded or maimed to work as beggars, this demonstrates no free will, it is the will of a slave master or Jinn (hidden) sovereign, the thoughts, development, will of the child is without power to alter the reality they suffer.
Religious Muslims show scant regard, while practical Muslims are so few in number as to have little physical impact, the question remains, why must the innocent suffer, why has Allah manifest a system to allow such massive misery?
Where did this innocence come from, exactly? God fashioned human beings from clay and blew life into them, which presumably is a metaphore for lifeforms evolving from inanimate matter, and prospering through survival of the fittest. At what state of hunting other species to extinction and domesticating the rest to be our food sources did we become innocent?
If there is an answer to that question, it is that our innocence was a gift from God, and our suffering is caused by our distancing ourselves from God. But that shouldn't be taken to mean that God does not will us to experience suffering, or that all we have to do in life is pray, quite the opposite. I think it means that if we follow God's will for our lives, our suffering will have a constructive purpose and bring us greater happiness in life as our efforts (being work to better ourselves, our families and our communities) reach fruition.
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I do not believe muslims or people in general enjoy watching people suffer. It?s not all about children who go through such things, even adults go through it. Even people who are in so called rich countries go through such things to different degrees and in different ways.
Why do you think people suffer?
Do you honestly believe children cannot make conscious decisions, have you never heard a 2 year old say NO! And mean it? Don?t under estimate the child. And such sufferings you described could be part of ?free will? simply for a reason to live. Off course it doesn?t mean this is right.
Religious muslims show scant regard? Why be so judgemental? What are people capable of doing, and what is it they do? I believe if most people see such sufferings they would be moved unless they?re sadistic, then they?re probably suffering mentally.
Don?t you think God gave us humans the power of the system?
Why must anyone suffer? Do you not think parents of such children would or wouldn?t suffer? Do you not think people who see such acts suffer (at least psychologically)?
Everyone suffers because of many many many \reasons.
Salam.
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Salaam,
when I say innocent, I do not mean hardships of life, I mean the suffering of babies, the starvation of millions of children, the ignorant world each child is forced to enter, and yes this is a question, why do Muslims allow this to exist, Muslims would not, why would Allah allow this suffering without redress, why do the innocent suffer?Peace,
Respectfully.It is us the rich who allow some people to stay poor because we are greedy and don't wanna share. babies suffer because we smoke, drink alcohol, abuse drugs and live a wrong lifestyle and then our DNA gets malfunctioned. Muslims don't allow this, but that person who wlaks by a poor person allows it, when s/he doesn't say, hey, you know what? Today, i'm gonna help this one person sleep on the warm bed in my house or i'm gonna buy this homeless person a hot meal and a drink like warm cup of tea.
People don't have to be lonely but we get sucked in by TV, DVD, phones, games and food. We must think of others and Ramadan is a beautiful time for it we remember what's it like to be without food when certain people around us eat and drink and we are not allowed.
God still helps us all, God keeps the poor alive, how, i don't know, God is AllMighty, AllPowerful and He knows what these poor need to survive Faith.
God tells us to give charity, to help each other, God wants us to be good Believers and follow The Quran where it says to always pray to Him and give charity and sometimes these two orders are in one and the sdame sentence, very often will you read in The Quran in the same sentence to pray and give charity and you must ask yourself, why are these two specific orders put together? Ponder over it.Peace.
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Salaam,
free will would apply to conscious decision, while I refer to the truly innocent, without any choice as to the misery they suffer, a small child starving to death alone, a child tortured to death over months, children forced to work as prostitutes from three or four, so raped day after day, children blinded or maimed to work as beggars, this demonstrates no free will, it is the will of a slave master or Jinn (hidden) sovereign, the thoughts, development, will of the child is without power to alter the reality they suffer.
Religious Muslims show scant regard, while practical Muslims are so few in number as to have little physical impact, the question remains, why must the innocent suffer, why has Allah manifest a system to allow such massive misery?
Salaam,
It's up to us to stop the suffering.
If the God gets involved 'personally', it makes free will obsolete.
In the story of Moses, how did Moses stop the suffering? He stood up to a tyrant. This is what jihad entails -872-73- to put a stop to oppression.
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Salaam,
In reply to Wakas
Free will can not apply to small children in the same way as adults, in respect to adults, what you state is true, it is based on freedom of choice, to allow the intentions and actions of life to be played out without hindrance from Allah, but in the case of adults in almost every case an equal and opposite reaction can be applied to address the negative, if recognised.
Small children can not grow, develop, evolve from abuse, admittedly the abusers have free will to apply the abuse, how does this explain the child?s ordeal.
If this world has been manifest for the soul purpose of the development of each persons Ruh, or higher soul, then why are the innocent children not included, if we must establish correct shepherds (beliefs) to guide our Ruh emotional energy, how could this apply to a small child who?s life is cruelly snubbed out.
Each person begins as a clean sheet of paper and the actions of their life build the story written, but if you never get chance to write anything, and this world has been created for this task, it would seem abused children are denied this gift.
In reply to others
The reasons for suffering I understand, the guilty I recognise, even if they themselves do not, two things manifest the suffering within the world, two things Muslims are directed within the Qur?an at length to prevent, and in Hadith to establish indirectly.
I do believe the children suffering in the world do not have a voice, yes, they have no way to stop or escape the abuse, to suggest they can say no to a paedophile pimping them out, or to a criminal putting their eyes out to work for them as a beggar, is to suggest they are complicit with the abuser.
More physical slaves exist in the world today than in any other period in history, if you believe the religious Muslims are not involved, then you should investigate the activities of the Muslims of the Western Sahara, as one example, or the activities of the Saudi Arabians.
Salaam Alen,
Christian concepts of prayer, God, faith, and the sovereign view of shared culpability for the actions of the iniquitous, are not shared, only the guilt of in-action when action is possible of each individual, and the involvement of the individual with the two true reasons for suffering within the world.
Salaam The Joker,
As you say much of the suffering of the innocent could be removed if Muslim returned to the world, but always some would remain, if you, as I, believe it is up to us, as human beings, we demonstrate utter failure at the present time, hence my contempt.
I can see no redress, the abusers not only prosper but flourish, the innocent exist in torment and die, Allah (not God) has it seems, not established any predetermined consequence, why?
For example if I drink poison I will invoke a predetermined response, I will die from poisoning.
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Peace All
I agree with those who say that it is our inactivity in producing a community that takes care of the community which is the problem. Only through the development of a community (however small) that endeavors to live by the guidance sent by God can rid themselves of these problems.
I think that all issues are resolved only when an ENTIRE community accepts & implements the guidance that has been sent.
See 1098
Imraan
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Salaam Wakas,
I did read the tread you gave, please explain the view once more here, I can not see the deeper point you wish to present, and this would be important, thank you.
Salaam Someone,
you seem to see no difference between a tomato, an animal, an insect and a child?
It is the purpose that distinguishes a child from an animal, an insect or a vegetable in this context, a child has a deep purpose, an ant, or a tomato not so much.
Salaam 1celostnowfound,
yes I agree if the Islamic models, (not the religious perverted models), were established within Islamic (non-religious) communities, this would protect the innocent, at least in the sphere of influence of those communities.
This is a founding objective within the Qur'an, but disregarded by every Muslim as far as I can see.
Salaam TheJoker,
Allah does not intervene but establishes predetermined outcomes, my point is, it seems they prosper even flourish from their crimes, what does this say, why does this manifest, what is Allah expressing in this out come?
Salaam liquiddharma,
I am not interested in the idea of the suffering of adults, as far as this question is concerned, innocent means harmless in intention, a blank canvas, unspoiled, uncorrupted, blameless, the child of the higher soul.
These children do not develop, even if they survive the perversions, greed, hate, sadism, zealots, sovereigns and usurers, most die well before they have any chance to learn.
It seems my question has evolved, why do the innocent suffer without redress, why has Allah established a benefit as the predetermined out come of these abuses?
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peace AN,
Please reflect.
I did read the tread you gave, please explain the view once more here, I can not see the deeper point you wish to present, and this would be important, thank you.
why do the innocent suffer without redress,
without redress in this life (in some cases), yes. If redress were to take place in this life, this would require removal of free-choice and logic, violating nature's laws, and thus invalidating this life/test. Making this life meaningless, as we would all be slaves with no choice.
why has Allah established a benefit as the predetermined out come of these abuses?
I assume you mean the perpetrators benefit. If so, answered in the other thread. It is pausing the story half way through then drawing a conclusion, i.e. dictating it on your terms, when your premise includes the existance of God so why not let God dictate the terms.... according to AQ, enter day of requital/due/obligation, where all scores are settled.
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Salaam Wakas,
I can see from the many posts you write on this site you have well estabished views you wish to express, I have no interest in this easily understood idea, that you continue to express, as I wish to understand deeper principles and concepts, it seems this is a question I will have to consider within myself for greater understanding. Thank you for the efforts and thoughts posted.
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Dear Wakas, please try to pay attention what Nur is saying. The whole theory of requital day and the Rubb taking care of all oppression and oppressors is part of whole change in the real Islam. The real Islam was and is meant to establish an equitable just social system. However, current religion Islam not only promotes rituals, as well portrays Rubb as a tyrant, asking to be pleased at all times with these rituals. If unable to please him, he would punish. A very primitive thought process.
Furthermore, the whole concept of requital day is propagated, so that humans/Muslims feel no responsibility to make any consious efforts; in order to establish a just social system. This also has been put as an eventual responsibility to Rubb, who will take care of this too, in Day of Judgment. This is part of same pathetic thought process that plagues whole Muslims at this time.
It is similar to this example, if there is drought or other natural causes of bad crops in fields. The Muslims are told to do "Sabar" and thank Allah in adversity. Instead of being told to acquire knowledge (purpose of creation) as how to harness the Universal forces (Malikas) causing drought or other adverse conditions leading to bad crops.
Badar
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Salam/peace to AN and all.
Some would call it an interesting discussion and some would call it philosophical. It is indeed a thought provoking point, and if I understood it correctly, I see it as follows.
Daily millions of children are born to different societies and different sets of religious beliefs. When they are born, they have a clean slate. They are then indoctrinated into ideologies by parents, society and environment, without these innocents having a choice. We as muslims have failed miserably to shine the light either, as we have also become like any other religion, following a set of ritualistic beliefs system, like all others, and believing in a Super King God who is sitting somewhere, getting pleased and/or upset and punishing in a manner similar to the worldly kings.These innocent children when indoctrinated to follow this blind path, almost have no say. "All that resolve to serve the unity of the human race, stands dejected, fruitless dedication steals all power". I thus fully agree with
" My flaw is profoundly held.
I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad.
Respect the reflection of virtue,
each holds inside,
against the selfish greed and lust,
of confused ignorance outwardly displayed.
I consider this the hardest requisite of Islam."We, unfortunately, are totally missing the boat and the Godly virtues taught to us by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (Peace be upon them all) are redirected to a direction suiting only the elite, forgetting the general good of humanity. We are again into "practicing religions" while the fight of all the above was against these religious beliefs and to rid the humanity of a tyrant God who is convenientlly represented here by the powerful at all levels.
Can it be done, as it has been done before? The journey is not easy. There will be crossing the red sea like Moses, suffering the torture of migration and hiding for years in valley like Mohammed, fighting the Cross designed to take the life of Jesus, swimming to safety from the attack of fish and making another Ark. Do we have the courage, to invite people to this Ark. We have the Ark, in the form of Qur'Aan, which is the same message given through all the above. Unless we dismiss everything we believe in, and go once again, letter by letter to this source, we will continue to drown, and keep subjecting the innocent behind us to drown also. If this reunderstanding the true message makes us loose everything we have been believing in, it is still worth it.
I will quote again
"I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad."This is the only way out. We reap what we sow. I have seen your effort on your site to understand the Real message letter by letter, by relooking at each letter and word used in the Book, and thus an attempt to see how we can correct our direction. I dont think that it needs a rocket scince to figure that we have been doing things wrong. We are however bend upon believing that everything we believe is correct, even though we are going no where. This is true with most every belief system. Wish more and more people would join hands and try to get to the message and end the futile struggle in the wrong dirction, that most of us are heading into.
Peace to all
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Salaam Kn,
thank you for your thoughtful post, you and Brother Badar have restored my hopes of finding deeper knowledge within the thoughts of those in search of the truth, thank you, you should become a member of servant of the light, your input would be welcome.
