My question is why must the innocent suffer?
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Salaam,
free will would apply to conscious decision, while I refer to the truly innocent, without any choice as to the misery they suffer, a small child starving to death alone, a child tortured to death over months, children forced to work as prostitutes from three or four, so raped day after day, children blinded or maimed to work as beggars, this demonstrates no free will, it is the will of a slave master or Jinn (hidden) sovereign, the thoughts, development, will of the child is without power to alter the reality they suffer.
Religious Muslims show scant regard, while practical Muslims are so few in number as to have little physical impact, the question remains, why must the innocent suffer, why has Allah manifest a system to allow such massive misery?
Salaam,
It's up to us to stop the suffering.
If the God gets involved 'personally', it makes free will obsolete.
In the story of Moses, how did Moses stop the suffering? He stood up to a tyrant. This is what jihad entails -872-73- to put a stop to oppression.
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Salaam,
In reply to Wakas
Free will can not apply to small children in the same way as adults, in respect to adults, what you state is true, it is based on freedom of choice, to allow the intentions and actions of life to be played out without hindrance from Allah, but in the case of adults in almost every case an equal and opposite reaction can be applied to address the negative, if recognised.
Small children can not grow, develop, evolve from abuse, admittedly the abusers have free will to apply the abuse, how does this explain the child?s ordeal.
If this world has been manifest for the soul purpose of the development of each persons Ruh, or higher soul, then why are the innocent children not included, if we must establish correct shepherds (beliefs) to guide our Ruh emotional energy, how could this apply to a small child who?s life is cruelly snubbed out.
Each person begins as a clean sheet of paper and the actions of their life build the story written, but if you never get chance to write anything, and this world has been created for this task, it would seem abused children are denied this gift.
In reply to others
The reasons for suffering I understand, the guilty I recognise, even if they themselves do not, two things manifest the suffering within the world, two things Muslims are directed within the Qur?an at length to prevent, and in Hadith to establish indirectly.
I do believe the children suffering in the world do not have a voice, yes, they have no way to stop or escape the abuse, to suggest they can say no to a paedophile pimping them out, or to a criminal putting their eyes out to work for them as a beggar, is to suggest they are complicit with the abuser.
More physical slaves exist in the world today than in any other period in history, if you believe the religious Muslims are not involved, then you should investigate the activities of the Muslims of the Western Sahara, as one example, or the activities of the Saudi Arabians.
Salaam Alen,
Christian concepts of prayer, God, faith, and the sovereign view of shared culpability for the actions of the iniquitous, are not shared, only the guilt of in-action when action is possible of each individual, and the involvement of the individual with the two true reasons for suffering within the world.
Salaam The Joker,
As you say much of the suffering of the innocent could be removed if Muslim returned to the world, but always some would remain, if you, as I, believe it is up to us, as human beings, we demonstrate utter failure at the present time, hence my contempt.
I can see no redress, the abusers not only prosper but flourish, the innocent exist in torment and die, Allah (not God) has it seems, not established any predetermined consequence, why?
For example if I drink poison I will invoke a predetermined response, I will die from poisoning.
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Peace All
I agree with those who say that it is our inactivity in producing a community that takes care of the community which is the problem. Only through the development of a community (however small) that endeavors to live by the guidance sent by God can rid themselves of these problems.
I think that all issues are resolved only when an ENTIRE community accepts & implements the guidance that has been sent.
See 1098
Imraan
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Salaam Wakas,
I did read the tread you gave, please explain the view once more here, I can not see the deeper point you wish to present, and this would be important, thank you.
Salaam Someone,
you seem to see no difference between a tomato, an animal, an insect and a child?
It is the purpose that distinguishes a child from an animal, an insect or a vegetable in this context, a child has a deep purpose, an ant, or a tomato not so much.
Salaam 1celostnowfound,
yes I agree if the Islamic models, (not the religious perverted models), were established within Islamic (non-religious) communities, this would protect the innocent, at least in the sphere of influence of those communities.
This is a founding objective within the Qur'an, but disregarded by every Muslim as far as I can see.
Salaam TheJoker,
Allah does not intervene but establishes predetermined outcomes, my point is, it seems they prosper even flourish from their crimes, what does this say, why does this manifest, what is Allah expressing in this out come?
Salaam liquiddharma,
I am not interested in the idea of the suffering of adults, as far as this question is concerned, innocent means harmless in intention, a blank canvas, unspoiled, uncorrupted, blameless, the child of the higher soul.
These children do not develop, even if they survive the perversions, greed, hate, sadism, zealots, sovereigns and usurers, most die well before they have any chance to learn.
It seems my question has evolved, why do the innocent suffer without redress, why has Allah established a benefit as the predetermined out come of these abuses?
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peace AN,
Please reflect.
I did read the tread you gave, please explain the view once more here, I can not see the deeper point you wish to present, and this would be important, thank you.
why do the innocent suffer without redress,
without redress in this life (in some cases), yes. If redress were to take place in this life, this would require removal of free-choice and logic, violating nature's laws, and thus invalidating this life/test. Making this life meaningless, as we would all be slaves with no choice.
why has Allah established a benefit as the predetermined out come of these abuses?
I assume you mean the perpetrators benefit. If so, answered in the other thread. It is pausing the story half way through then drawing a conclusion, i.e. dictating it on your terms, when your premise includes the existance of God so why not let God dictate the terms.... according to AQ, enter day of requital/due/obligation, where all scores are settled.
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Salaam Wakas,
I can see from the many posts you write on this site you have well estabished views you wish to express, I have no interest in this easily understood idea, that you continue to express, as I wish to understand deeper principles and concepts, it seems this is a question I will have to consider within myself for greater understanding. Thank you for the efforts and thoughts posted.
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Dear Wakas, please try to pay attention what Nur is saying. The whole theory of requital day and the Rubb taking care of all oppression and oppressors is part of whole change in the real Islam. The real Islam was and is meant to establish an equitable just social system. However, current religion Islam not only promotes rituals, as well portrays Rubb as a tyrant, asking to be pleased at all times with these rituals. If unable to please him, he would punish. A very primitive thought process.
Furthermore, the whole concept of requital day is propagated, so that humans/Muslims feel no responsibility to make any consious efforts; in order to establish a just social system. This also has been put as an eventual responsibility to Rubb, who will take care of this too, in Day of Judgment. This is part of same pathetic thought process that plagues whole Muslims at this time.
It is similar to this example, if there is drought or other natural causes of bad crops in fields. The Muslims are told to do "Sabar" and thank Allah in adversity. Instead of being told to acquire knowledge (purpose of creation) as how to harness the Universal forces (Malikas) causing drought or other adverse conditions leading to bad crops.
Badar
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Salam/peace to AN and all.
Some would call it an interesting discussion and some would call it philosophical. It is indeed a thought provoking point, and if I understood it correctly, I see it as follows.
Daily millions of children are born to different societies and different sets of religious beliefs. When they are born, they have a clean slate. They are then indoctrinated into ideologies by parents, society and environment, without these innocents having a choice. We as muslims have failed miserably to shine the light either, as we have also become like any other religion, following a set of ritualistic beliefs system, like all others, and believing in a Super King God who is sitting somewhere, getting pleased and/or upset and punishing in a manner similar to the worldly kings.These innocent children when indoctrinated to follow this blind path, almost have no say. "All that resolve to serve the unity of the human race, stands dejected, fruitless dedication steals all power". I thus fully agree with
" My flaw is profoundly held.
I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad.
Respect the reflection of virtue,
each holds inside,
against the selfish greed and lust,
of confused ignorance outwardly displayed.
I consider this the hardest requisite of Islam."We, unfortunately, are totally missing the boat and the Godly virtues taught to us by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed (Peace be upon them all) are redirected to a direction suiting only the elite, forgetting the general good of humanity. We are again into "practicing religions" while the fight of all the above was against these religious beliefs and to rid the humanity of a tyrant God who is convenientlly represented here by the powerful at all levels.
Can it be done, as it has been done before? The journey is not easy. There will be crossing the red sea like Moses, suffering the torture of migration and hiding for years in valley like Mohammed, fighting the Cross designed to take the life of Jesus, swimming to safety from the attack of fish and making another Ark. Do we have the courage, to invite people to this Ark. We have the Ark, in the form of Qur'Aan, which is the same message given through all the above. Unless we dismiss everything we believe in, and go once again, letter by letter to this source, we will continue to drown, and keep subjecting the innocent behind us to drown also. If this reunderstanding the true message makes us loose everything we have been believing in, it is still worth it.
I will quote again
"I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad."This is the only way out. We reap what we sow. I have seen your effort on your site to understand the Real message letter by letter, by relooking at each letter and word used in the Book, and thus an attempt to see how we can correct our direction. I dont think that it needs a rocket scince to figure that we have been doing things wrong. We are however bend upon believing that everything we believe is correct, even though we are going no where. This is true with most every belief system. Wish more and more people would join hands and try to get to the message and end the futile struggle in the wrong dirction, that most of us are heading into.
Peace to all
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Salaam Kn,
thank you for your thoughtful post, you and Brother Badar have restored my hopes of finding deeper knowledge within the thoughts of those in search of the truth, thank you, you should become a member of servant of the light, your input would be welcome.
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We suffer because of our actions, or because of our inaction. We fear what we should not fear. We suffer because of our ignorance and vice. We suffer because devils live among us. We suffer because of oppression. We suffer because we are weak. We suffer becauce of rascism,sexism,nationalism etc., you get my point.
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Salam/peace to AN and all.
Some would call it an interesting discussion and some would call it philosophical. It is indeed a thought provoking point, and if I understood it correctly, I see it as follows.
Daily millions of children are born to different societies and different sets of religious beliefs. When they are born, they have a clean slate. They are then indoctrinated into ideologies by parents, society and environment, without these innocents having a choice. We as muslims have failed miserably to shine the light either, as we have also become like any other religion, following a set of ritualistic beliefs system, like all others, and believing in a Super King God who is sitting somewhere, getting pleased and/or upset and punishing in a manner similar to the worldly kings.These innocent children when indoctrinated to follow this blind path..
Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
innocence is rubbish talk. A child is born with little knowledge and they learn through their environment, a lot of their doings are based on their self and ignorance.
Why is a child innocent but an adult not? why do people grow out of innocence?
even if you intend to bring up a child of 'innocence' in a perfect environment it's non existent. the tv you watch, the people you see, the life you live, the country you're in it all has influences and discourses. Some of which you have no power to change.
there is no way of saying ok i'll bring you up with no nothing, and then you'll be totally free and 'innocent'. it's just impossible.
The only problem is causing serious harm to a child (even an adult) that's the problem. no one should suffer.
BTW in relation to Badrs post, do you not think you need patience to deal with issues? that's not to say you don't sit and twiddle your thumbs! being proactive is important sometimes you need to be patient. and if we go by the logic oh just have sabr, well why don't we just sit down and do nothing and have sabr for a miracle to happen so someone can feed us. that's nonsense. people are not that stupid.
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Are you sure about this?
rotfl yeah thats a good question. group
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Children are brought up in an adult discourse world, inevitably they will be indoctrinate due so social norms of the time, be it from family, religion/no religion or whatever.
innocence is rubbish talk. A child is born with little knowledge and they learn through their environment, a lot of their doings are based on their self and ignorance.
Why is a child innocent but an adult not? why do people grow out of innocence?
even if you intend to bring up a child of 'innocence' in a perfect environment it's non existent. the tv you watch, the people you see, the life you live, the country you're in it all has influences and discourses. Some of which you have no power to change.
there is no way of saying ok i'll bring you up with no nothing, and then you'll be totally free and 'innocent'. it's just impossible.
I fully understand what you are saying. An adult is a grown up child, and hence he then assumes the responsibility. However, the question is wether we can break this cycle.The innocent by the way are not only the children with a clean slate, but even a large number of adults, who have been directed into the path leading to no where. The responsibility on those who can see the light perhaps increases many fold, as long as they can focus this light properly. With due respect, I will repeat part of my posting again, just to highlight the issue.
"Can it be done, as it has been done before? The journey is not easy. There will be crossing the red sea like Moses, suffering the torture of migration and hiding for years in valley like Mohammed, fighting the Cross designed to take the life of Jesus, swimming to safety from the attack of fish and making another Ark. Do we have the courage, to invite people to this Ark. We have the Ark, in the form of Qur'Aan, which is the same message given through all the above. Unless we dismiss everything we believe in, and go once again, letter by letter to this source, we will continue to drown, and keep subjecting the innocent behind us to drown also. If this reunderstanding the true message makes us loose everything we have been believing in, it is still worth it.
I will quote again
"I must surmount this intractable barrier of sentence.
I must consider the insignificant fraction of good,
without considering the balance of the overwhelming bad."This is the only way out. We reap what we sow. We need to understand the Real message letter by letter, by relooking at each letter and word used in the Book, and thus an attempt to see how we can correct our direction. I dont think that it needs a rocket scince to figure that we have been doing things wrong. We are however bend upon believing that everything we believe is correct, even though we are going no where. This is true with most every belief system. Wish more and more people would join hands and try to get to the message and end the futile struggle in the wrong dirction, that most of us are heading into."
Giving up is just too easy an excuse, but full of bad outcomes.
Peace to all -
I feel the topic is skewing to a different direction..
why must the innocent suffer?
I can say a child brought up with much wealth in such a loving environment though is subjugated to adult authority of what he or she can and cannot do is a form of suffering.
?suffering? isn?t a black and white image.
I fully understand what you are saying. An adult is a grown up child, and hence he then assumes the responsibility. However, the question is wether we can break this cycle.The innocent by the way are not only the children with a clean slate, but even a large number of adults, who have been directed into the path leading to no where. The responsibility on those who can see the light perhaps increases many fold, as long as they can focus this light properly. With due respect, I will repeat part of my posting again, just to highlight the issue.
What cycle do you want to break? The responsibility? The innocence? You confused me please clarify.
?Innocence? is not about a path directed to nowhere. Even so called not innocent people/children who have a wealth of knowledge and opportunity can easily take a path directed to nowhere.
Lots of people ?think? they see the light and they will inflict their bias upon those who don?t know or to others who have their own opinions.
I think you?re a dreamer, how do you expect suffering to stop through migration, possibly you could control those who come with you to a certain extent but really you have no control of other people?s actions and only you are responsible for your deeds. If you were just giving an analogy with the idea that the ark/migration is the Quran. People are following it. None of us are perfect, and when we work on ourselves we can make a difference.It?s not rocket science but once you open something and read it, Tom, Dick and Harry will come up with different outlooks. It?s great people are out there trying to support ?innocent? children through their knowledge of ?light? though none of us are supreme.
Are you sure about this?
100%
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Salaam Sarah,
You have expressed a point of not only children but adults being innocent, but this is an A-symmetrical system, you believe a child is as culpable as an adult?
The question of suffering of humanity, is a different question to the suffering of the truly innocent, we are given a choice, we can establish Jannah, which means a fertile place of abundant growth, within the society we strive towards, or we can establish Jahannam, a constrictive place of stagnation.
In the world today we live in a constrictive environment, where ignorance is the standard human attainment, suffering is widespread throughout the world, this is due to the wrong beliefs being predominant within the minds of the adult population, these beliefs not only contaminate the children?s thoughts, from the abuses, which scars and injures the thoughts of the innocent, but ultimately transforming them in copies of themselves.
What is the driving force of this constrictive environment?
You could blame the sovereigns, their greed and lusts dominate the human condition, however this would be wrong, you can not blame the tool, you must blame the workman using the tool, when the result is wrong.
The answer of the suffering of the adults is subjugation, and the greater problem of, those in subjugation, then forcibly subjugating those around them, this is based on fear. I wrote a poem on this to help you understand.
Worship all you fear.
Dissolute dominations nightmare festers.
on the hostage coloured soul,
strangled to enslavement,
draining to a craven hollow.Distorted,
gathering kindred with whispered awe of sovereigns worship,
utter in righteous confidence,
its outcome fatal,
a contagious poison.Mimicry and fascination is the eulogy of the worshiped,
so fear your reward,
its bounty burdens every moment,
always too frightened to refuse.The cold metal of subjugation sears the flesh,
so oppressed,
their badgered scars putrefy.The shepherds of belief cowering in fear,
are inculcate truths,
reality free.A mind questioning fear will free compassion from the bankers vault,
who?s crushing usurious chains paralyse reasons grasp.A mind blinking in the light of freedom,
has shed its chains of fear,
freed to build protection under evolving reasons armour.So care without constraint,
reflect each act of love,
initiate of yourself without reward,
upon its reflection bestow munificence,
and have no fear.Hold firmly to all truth and cast away all fear.
As an adult it is possible for you, even if you were killed for it, to face your abuser without fear in the knowledge of what is taking place, and where is could lead, a child can not, and this is the difference.
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I think you might have misunderstood me, childhood innocence is a construction that adults make; it doesn?t exist.
Culpability has nothing to do with innocence. To answer your question, yes though i?d say you have a wrong choice of words. Let me give you an example Child A wants the toy that child B has, Child A hits child B intentionally and snatches the toy. You can argue the child doesn?t know better, but one can argue the child has been taught hitting is wrong and unacceptable. The child is responsible for their actions.
Off course you have adopted the discourse that children are innocent (based on my interpretation) and aren?t culpable because they are simply children with no voice, with no power with nothing other than adult dominance and fear. Dunno where you live though children have a voice. Yes adults can obstruct their rights but they can also impede on other adults rights. Suffering isn?t only limited to children.
Suffering of humanity is not less significant than the suffering of children. Children are part of humanity all humans with souls shouldn?t suffer, even the ones without souls! I could argue that a person with an additional need (special need) is much more in need than the so called innocent child. Depending on the severity they may never ever have a voice, they may never be able to physically retaliate, they are locked up within themselves within society. Don?t let ?innocence? of children make you overlook others.
IF you so believe children are more important and the importance of them not suffering is far greater than any other being, prove it.
All of us were children and we all grew up. These children that come to life are brought up in an adult world of discourse; if you can?t change adults thinking don?t expect miracles on children. The environment will always be constrictive. I think you might like to watch a documentary on this, geography impacts.
Guns, Germs, and Steel The Fates of Human Societies by Jarod DiamondRemember you're dealing with centuries of contstructions, miracles don't happen over night.
You can?t expect a world with total harmony of no bias, it?s nonexistent. How would you like it or expect it to be in your ideal world of realism. Because you?re talking realistic right, not some fairy tale?
These children grow up to be adults (some don?t) though you?d think if they really believed in their sufferings they would be an activist to aim for a better life?
You have some interesting thoughts though i don?t entirely agree with you.
Children as much as adults suffer, no one deserves to suffer.
We?re not superhuman to save the world but we can do our share, 1 person makes a difference.
As an adult it is possible for you, even if you were killed for it, to face your abuser without fear in the knowledge of what is taking place, and where is could lead, a child can not, and this is the difference.
I disagree, Fear exists in adults also.
Salam
