Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Belal,
Ayman, it seems that you are trying to ignore your own theory, Shahar = Full Moon and not a MONTH, when answering my two Questions !
You are just upset that I demonstrated that your question and answer about months and years is the same exact question and answer about the Gregorian calendar. Therefore your question and answer are irrelevant.
Is it because, using your theory to answer the two question would put you in position that you would have to refute it?
Be honest with yourself and us, and explain why your theory cannot be used to answer the two questions...And if you do so, you will earn my and everyone respect.Anyone can see that 30 full-moons are 30 full-moons. Your claim that they are equivalent to 2.5 years is just your baseless claim. The god never said that they are 2.5 years. As for how many full-moons are in 40 years, there is a year with 13 full-moons every 3 years so it is going to be about 493 full moons, give or take depending on when one was actually born relative to the full-moon. On the other hand, the Gregorian calendar was used to answer your two stupid questions and produced the SAME EXACT answers as you. So according to your logic this means that we should all fast according to the Gregorian calendar now.
Thank you for your valuable proposal...I promise you that I will answer it again, but after you answer my two question using your theory Shahar= One Full Moon.
You are obsessed with me. Forget about me and stop using me as an excuse for your mental laziness. Your stupid questions have nothing to do with the fact that your traditional arbitrary timing is not based on the great reading. You are just hanging at straws because you know that you have NOTHING.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace,
I forgot added the CORRELATION between my two questions...here it isThe CORRELATION is God is descripting the first 2.5 years (30 month) of our life, and then, what a believer would say after 37.5 years (450 moon cycles) passes after the first mentioned period (30 month).
Belh,
What do you want to prove with this?
I have tried my best to understand the reason/wisdom behind this question of yours, but have failed.
Moreover , I have told you so many times that Month is an inaccurate/inconsistent unit of measure, and hence any command using the term Month cannot be full filled due inherent ambiguity in its definition. As the Book/GOD is perfect, hence He did not use this unit, and opted to use marker, (shahar) what ever time period they give us (29 or 30)
Let me try and explain to you yet another way ,
If you are commanded to do something for , let us say , a second, or a minute, or an hour, or a day, or a week, or a year, there will be no confusion in your mind as to how many time units (lets say in seconds) you have to carry out a certain exercise, where as Month is the only man made unit which would give you so many options to choose from, 28, 29 ,30, or 31 days or its smaller units of hour/minutes/seconds. That is why God does not use this unit.
If you cant grasp this simple logic, then i am afraid, there are only three possibilities, "you have a frozen brain", if not true , then an "idiotic attitude", and if both are not true, then i am afraid , as Nabeel said, "your mind is in complete grip of Satan", do something about it .
siki
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Peace all,
Anyone can see that 30 full-moons are 30 full-moons. Your claim that they are equivalent to 2.5 years is just your baseless claim. The god never said that they are 2.5 years.
If 2.5 years is not the right answer, based on your theory, how many years are the 30 Shaher that are mentioned in the verse equal to?
Peace belH
Do not laugh too soon, I was leading Professors and Phd students in a Western University, and even with them
they considered me too progressive for their comfort.
But I do not have to justify myself to you, you are a failure so far as Allah's testing is concerned, which is worse than
any failure you will get from academia or engineering.
You have the complete wrong attitude to looking for the Truth, you think it is first within you, and you try to confirm it,
worse you do your utmost to cling to it.
The Truth is with Allah's and He has given you tools that you misuse pretty badly, even the tool of humility,
you do not seem to have, you are so cocky about your self righteousness that you refuse to contemplate
the possibility to look for another approach.
And Allah will ask you why you did not use in excess of His Word, the environment, and the people around you, and the technologies, and any means necessary to find out the Truth.
Yet you are stuck with decisions made for you by scholars in the 8th century and thereafter, and do not seem able or courageous enough to question their wisdom, or the accuracy of their approaches.
In my view, you are an intellectual coward...
and when challenged, you invoke Satan...
well the disbelievers like you invoked Magic...
You really do not interest me anymore, ana baree-un minka...rotfl Your ego is about to explode...Imam.
God does not love the arrogant who shows off.
Soon your knowledge (if you have any) will diminish, and your students' will prosper. Then, your ego will die with you. -
Moreover , I have told you so many times that Month is an inaccurate/inconsistent unit of measure, and hence any command using the term Month cannot be full filled due inherent ambiguity in its definition.
Peace all,
You are wrong about this. Here is one from the many examples of which the Prophet had fulfilled by measuring accurately the Month period
Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
92So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the bond, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
95Did the Prophet were able to Measure the Period in which Fighting was prohibited?
By the way, how many days did the prophet had to wait before fighting? Because according to Ayman theory, he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle)...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stop fighting for 10 days per moon cycle...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days?
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Do not laugh too soon, I was leading Professors and Phd students in a Western University, and even with them
they considered me too progressive for their comfort.Are you sure that is what they thought of you (being progressive of their comfort), or your ego's imagination.
Until now, I don't consider you too progressive for my comfort, rather, an arrogant Imam who uses Non-well-established verses to cancel out the well-established ones. Hence, you are the same as the ones whom God described in 3-7 (the ones underlined)He is the One who sent down to you the Book, from which there are well-established revelations; they are the essence of the Book; and others which are not well-established. As for those who have a disease in their hearts, they will follow what is not-well-established from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God, and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say We believe in it, all is from our Lord. And none will remember except the people of understanding.
37 -
Peace all,
You are wrong about this. Here is one from the many examples of which the Prophet had fulfilled by measuring accurately the Month period
Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters.
92So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and they hold the bond, and they contribute towards purification, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
95Did the Prophet were able to Measure the Period in which Fighting was prohibited?
can't it be taken for a time period spreading over the appearance of 4 markers,(shahars)? You seem so sure about your statement regarding prophet as if you are carrying a video of his .
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can't it be taken for a time period spreading over the appearance of 4 markers,(shahars)? You seem so sure about your statement regarding prophet as if you are carrying a video of his .
Peace, so you are saying that he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle),...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stopped fighting for 10 days per moon cycle (he had to stop the war four times that are equal to 20 days each)...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days?
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Peace, so you are saying that he would have had to not fight for 10 days per moon cycle (the period of the full moon per moon cycle),...in other words, he would have fought for 20 days, and stopped fighting for 10 days per moon cycle (he had to stop the war four times that are equal to 20 days each)...is this what he did, or did he wait for complete 4 moon cycles--about 118 days?
When this command was downloaded to his heart , he stopped fighting and waited for the first full moon to appear and when it did , he counted it as number one ,waited for the next full moon, counted it as second , waited for the next full moon and counted it as third, and then the next. When he saw 4th full moon , restriction was over .
Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
siki -
When this command was downloaded to his heart , he stopped fighting and waited for the first full moon to appear and when it did , he counted it as number one ,waited for the next full moon, counted it as second , waited for the next full moon and counted it as third, and then the next. When he saw 4th full moon , restriction was over .
siki
Peace,
Therefore, it is not too hard to calculate four Moon Cycles (29 to 30 days per cycle)--Months, as you thought before.
Now, which Full moon was the marker for the day in which fighting were to begin, taking into consideration that the prophet did not have the technology we have today
http//www.stariel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/moon_phases1.jpg
Or is it more easier to look for the new appearance of the moon-the Waxing Crescent?
Peace
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If GOD wanted to make you do something for , let us say more than 30 50, or 90 days , It was difficult for the people back then to keep track of count, so he made it easier for them by counting a few full moons (two , three or 4 only)
Your pictures of full moon is a circular argument again, i have told you repeatedly , that , Shahar is, the first full moon which appears after the sun has set. so watch sun set, if there is a fullish moon ignore it, next day again watch sun set, if you see a full moon above horizon , again ignore it, do this exercise till the time you do not find a moon at sun set, now look for the moon rise, it will rise soon, This is Shahar.siki
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Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
sikiNow, I have one more question for you
How many moon cycles the prophet was allowed to fight for before the next 4 restricted Moon Cycles start again, in which fight should stop?
is it 8 moon cycles period or 9? -
Shahar is only one , and it is a Marker, there is nothing like shahar spreading over 10 days time period.
When ever there is a command of a single shahar, that is to be followed by a time period, (like in 2-185 ambiguity was clarified in 2-184 as ayayam ul madoodaat) , but if it is more than one , then it is the time period starting from next first visible, to the 2nd /third/ or 4th.
sikiAre you proposing two different periods, 2 to 10 and 29 days' period, for the Shahar?
Do Ayman and the Imam agree with your proposal? Because it is a New proposal. -
Now, I have one more question for you
How many moon cycles the prophet was allowed to fight for before the next 4 restricted Moon Cycles start again, in which fight should stop?
is it 8 moon cycles period or 9?I dont know, nor am interested to teach you the meaning of this commandment, i am merely applying the shahar as a marker to calculate the time period in this aya, and trying to tell you that what ever it is , taking shahar as full moon marker makes sense.
siki
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Are you proposing two different periods, 2 to 10 and 29 days' period, for the Shahar?
Do Ayman and the Imam agree with your proposal? Because it is a New proposal.
So, this is what you understand out of my three line post ???
o Any other forum member understanding so?
confused Belh, Bro, Please share it with me , I won't tell any one, OK. ( Are you mentally disabled , or something?
You know i was suspecting it for long, and i already told you so in one of my previous posts quoted below.
there are only three possibilities, "you have a frozen brain", if not true , then an "idiotic attitude", and if both are not true, then i am afraid , as Nabeel said, "your mind is in complete grip of Satan", do something about it .
siki
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Peace Ayman,
When it comes to "ramadhan", it is not my translation or understanding. All Classical Arabic dictionaries clearly say that it means "hot/scorching". If you disagree with the meaning of "ramadhan" and think that it can mean "cold" then you are imagining a false meaning. If you don't know the meaning then you are in no position to agree or disagree with anything. Just so that you don't say that I am building a strawman, please tell us what you think "ramadhan" means or admit that you don't know the meaning.
Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 1418similar those who disbelieve with their Lord their deeds as ashes...
Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
So what is the purpose of saying "whoever witnessed the shahr amongst you"?
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would save the Arabian Onyx or the buffalo according to your timing?
Certainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
638 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.
Before I answer, who said it is from the day of proclamation in 93? The travel the land for four full-moons is already decreed before the proclamation in 93. The bigger "hajj" happened between the decree in 92 and the ending of the inviolable full-moons. So it must have happened on one of the inviolable full-moons.
Who said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?
If GOD wanted to make you do something for , let us say more than 30 50, or 90 days , It was difficult for the people back then to keep track of count, so he made it easier for them by counting a few full moons (two , three or 4 only)
Really, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.
Your pictures of full moon is a circular argument again, i have told you repeatedly , that , Shahar is, the first full moon which appears after the sun has set. so watch sun set, if there is a fullish moon ignore it, next day again watch sun set, if you see a full moon above horizon , again ignore it, do this exercise till the time you do not find a moon at sun set, now look for the moon rise, it will rise soon, This is Shahar.
Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahrSun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.003-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98Peace and kindest regards,
Eid
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Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...Salam
Noble
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Peace
I thought (Eid) that we talk of a different context when it is the same word...
but the word Ashes (ramadan) and Scorching Hot (ramadzan) are two distinct words, so how can you
use this as different context in the separate Ayats, the words are different, and have different meanings,
are you fooling around with God's meanings?You, like belH are playing with Allah's Signs so beware...
As for your other grievances, Ayman's several patient posts answered them at length, if you cannot, or more appropriately do not want to be convinced, fine...
but to be honest, someone reading the beginning of your post will not give much weight to your rationality, and will not take you seriously...Salam
Noble
Peace (Noble) the name not the attribute,
The first was an example, the rest facts which you don't address instead pad and pollute the thread with cheerleader rants as a few of the others popping out of the internet bushes adding zero value diverting the topic.
Fact Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Fact Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.
Also addressed in another thread...
quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg197964#msg197964 date=1240312339
Lisaan alarab is a thirteenth century work, & lane's lexicon is an nineteenth century work. In between the two u have taj alarus, which is an eighteenth century work.quote author=thegod link=topic=9597441.msg198055#msg198055 date=1240372155
elke-a cycle / cercle per definition has no beginning and no end.A cycle is a series of events that recur (in the same order).
The "new" moon is the marker because (it follows the "moonless" night, & it is the beginning of a "new" cycle. The reason shahr has been applied to the new moon is that it announces (underived meaning of shahr) the moon after the moonless night. Because the new moon marks the beginning of a month, shahr also denotes the same.
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?
Fact Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahrSun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.003-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98If you want to continue the discussion and add value then answer if the above are TRUE or not.
Regards,
Eid
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Peace Eid,
Not about the weather or how hot in certain parts of the N. Hemisphere which is opposite the Southern.
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
Ra-Miim-Dal = to starve from cold, destroy, put in ashes, become dirty. ramad (pl. of armidatun) - ashes, fine and copious ashes
ramad n.m. pl. 1418
similar those who disbelieve with their Lord their deeds as ashes...
Best meaning is derived from context not always dictionaries like to error imply deeds are physical ashes and not that their actions are starved like ashes blown in the wind.The words and are two completely different words in Arabic with different spelling. What you are saying is like confusing ?mat? (a rug) and ?mad? (crazy) in English. Your time would be better spent in learning Arabic than in defending the nonsensical and arbitrary sectarian calendar.
Ra-Miim-Dad = to be burning, heat, be blasted by the sun. ramaDda - to sharpen (a spear) between stones, roast, pasture on a burning ground, burn. ramDda - scorching heat, burning hot (ground). ramadzan - the ninth month of Islamic calendar, the month of fast.
ramadan n. 2185
LL, V3, p 322, 323
Shahr/month/time (start-end) Ramadan/the month of fast -- as in PERF 558 the month Jumada I of the year Twenty-Two.It only became ?the month of fast? after 2185 was revealed. So you are using circular reasoning. An Arab hearing 2185 for the first time and trying to understand when this ?month? occurs wouldn?t use circular reasoning (CIRCULAR to fast during the month of fast). This is a post-Quranic meaning that doesn?t say anything about when to fast. Even using your own definition of "shahr" as "month", the pre-Quranic Arab listening for the first time to 2185 without any post-Quranic bias would understand it as a "month" of scorching heat.
So they make an inward intent called shahida...
1926 so say that I made a vow to The Merciful a fast...
so who witness, give attestation, avouch, aver or declare from you the month so he should fast it.Actually, the examples that you brought destroy your argument that ?inward intent? means ?shahida? since 1926 clearly says that such intent is called ? I made a vow ?. Also, according to you ?whoever didn?t make a vow? is not obligated to fast. So according to your logic, even fully able people in good health are exempted if they ?don?t make a vow?.
Certainly not by permitting global hunting for 8 months. The Arabian Onyx and all animals are saved by those who are constantly mindful of the reminder...
638 And not from a walker/creeper/crawler (creature) in the earth and nor bird flies with its two wings, except nations similar/alike/equal to you, We did not neglect in The Book from a thing, then to their Lord they be gathered.This doesn?t answer the question. Any hunting for sport would fall under spilling blood unnecessarily and is therefore prohibited anyway. Also, hunting endangered species would fall under corrupting the earth and therefore is also prohibited. What we are talking about is hunting for food and restricting it so that those species don?t become endangered. So the question is
How does restricting hunting only on the 8th to 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and only on people walking half-naked while wearing nothing but towels and only in the vicinity of Mecca would be better for wild life than a global hunting restriction for the summer season?
Who said on one of the days of the full moon which occur after sunset?
Explain one full moon (a marker) how the statement can be true?
91-2 Annulment from God and His messenger to those you promised from the takers of partners, so travel in the earth four ashhurin?The god said so. He said that the ?hajj? occurs on ?ash-hur ma'aloomat?. So the ?hajj? occurs on known full-moons. The harvest full-moons are known to everyone and the people of the book had ?hagg? on the inviolable full-moon (Hagg Sukkot). On the other hand, there is nothing that anyone knew about the Islamic calendar in pre-Islamic times, including the start of the era, the order of the months or the names of the months (all of which the location of its months are based on). Moreover, 93 makes it clear that the restriction period is consecutive but according to your arbitrary false calendar they are not consecutive but are haphazardly arranged as months 11, 12, 1 and 7.
Travel in the land for four full-moons is the same if I tell you that I will see you after four full-moons. Nothing ambiguous about it.
Really, were they wired different and the minds of today smarter than the ancient philosophers, Pythagorean mathematicians, Sumerian stone movers/builders, and Mayan calendar makers?
Better tools make better tools and we have a bit more precision and understanding of physics today.Yet despite all the tools there are still disputes every year about when your so-called Ramadhan month occurs (including this year) but there was never any dispute about when the full-moon occurs.
Then your marker varies and is sometimes 98% full as the case in November this year....
No it doesn?t. You are saying this because you are used to disputes every year about the start of Ramadhan. Please provide any link or reference showing that there was ever any dispute about when the full-moon occurs. If you can?t provide such reference then you have proved that just because you ignore when it occurs, it doesn?t mean that everyone does.
http//www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/astronomy.html?n=263&month=11&year=2009&obj=moon&afl=-11&day=1
http//aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php
Washington DC, District of Columbia, United States
Date Sunset Moonrise
2-Nov-09 506 PM 443 PM ignored Full at 214 PM
3-Nov-09 505 PM 525 PM shahr
Sun 2-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.9 245.5 1630 -3.1 62.1 1.00
1640 4.1 247.1 1640 -1.4 63.6 1.00
1650 2.4 248.7 1650 0.8 65.1 1.00
1700 0.8 250.3 1700 2.3 66.6 1.00
1710 -1.5 251.9 1710 4.0 68.0 1.00 ignored
1720 -3.4 253.4 1720 5.7 69.4 1.00
1730 -5.3 254.9 1730 7.5 70.8 1.00
1740 -7.1 256.4 1740 9.2 72.2 1.00
1750 -9.0 257.9 1750 11.0 73.6 1.00
1800 -11.0 259.5 1800 12.9 75.0 1.00
3-Nov-09 Sun 3-Nov-09 Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1630 5.7 245.2 1630 -9.4 50.7 0.98
1640 3.9 246.9 1640 -7.9 52.4 0.98
1650 2.2 248.5 1650 -6.4 54.0 0.98
1700 0.6 250.1 1700 -4.8 55.6 0.98
1710 -1.7 251.6 1710 -3.3 57.1 0.98
1720 -3.6 253.2 1720 -1.7 58.6 0.98
1730 -5.5 254.7 1730 0.4 60.1 0.98 shahr
1740 -7.3 256.2 1740 1.9 61.6 0.98
1750 -9.2 257.7 1750 3.5 63.0 0.98
1800 -11.1 259.2 1800 5.1 64.4 0.98You are forgetting practical reality. The fact is that the full-moon on November 2 is the full-moon. Sunset starts from the time the sun starts to go through the horizon (the sun is about .5 degrees wide, and so is the moon). So here is the data for November 2 and 3
November 2
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
1701 0.6 250.5
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1648 0.5 64.8 1November 3
Sun
Time Altitude Azimuth
1701 0.4 250.2
Moon
Time Altitude Azimuth Fraction Illuminated
1731 0.6 60.3 0.98As you can see, the moon on November 3 occurs 30 minutes after sunset (will appear to an earth bound observer even later). On the other hand, the full-moon on November 2 occurs only 13 minutes before sunset. More practically speaking though, unless you are in the middle of the sea, the full moon doesn?t actually appear to earth bound observers until it has risen about 2 degrees so it will be apparent at the same time as the sunset. There is no ambiguity that this is the full moon and any doubt will be cleared once one sees that the next day moon appears more than 30 minutes after sunset.
Again there was never any doubt about when the full-moon occurs, on the other hand there is doubt EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when the new moon crescent of the sectarian Ramadhan appears. This is indisputable, but you are clearly biased. So the way for you to prove your point is to bring an independent source showing that there is or ever was a dispute on when the full-moon occurs. On the other hand, there is a dispute EVERY SINGLE YEAR about when your so-called Ramadhan occurs. Here is the data for this year showing a variation of THREE days even within the same country or countries right next to each other
Ramadan Start- Friday 21-August
Libya, Turkey, Lebanon (Shiites), Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bosnia, Herzegovina, Serbia, Bulgaria, Montenegro, Albania, Slovenia, Russia, Germany, EU (The European Council for Fatwa and Research).Ramadan Start ? Saturday 22-August
Indonesia, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, Philippines, China, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Syria, Lebanon (Sunni), Jordan, Palestine, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, France, Belgium, Spain, Switzerland, USA (Following Saudi), UK.Ramadan Start ? Sunday 23-August
India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, USA (some communities by actual local sighting)The above is on top of the fact that your so-called Ramadhan is 100% arbitrary to begin with since it is dependent on when month 1 was made to start, the arbitrary order of the months and the arbitrary start of the era. Those are indisputably THREE 100% arbitrary and manmade factors.
Instead of wasting your time trying to jealously prove that like the empirically verifiable 3 day dispute in your so-called Ramadhan there is dispute on when the full-moon occurs, I would suggest that you try to help Belal answer the following question. You guys are going to need all the help you can get. Bring a Billion sectarian supporting one another if you want but still you will never be able to do it. )
How your Ramadhan and your Hajj on the 8th to the 13th of Dhu Al-Hijjah and your restricted months (Muharam, Rajab, Dhu Al-Qi3da, Dhu Al-Hijjah, or whatever) are based purely on the god's words from the great reading and not on some unknown people or some guy named Umar arbitrarily deciding the order the months and the start of year 1 month 1 or on what the majority or Mullahs say or on Hadiths or any other such crap.
Peace,
Ayman