salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
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How do you understand the salat in 835 vs. 911?
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Chapter 9- An acquittal/release from The God and His messenger to those with whom you made a treaty from among the polytheists.
- Therefore, roam the earth for four months and know that you will not escape The God, and that The God will disgrace the ungrateful/rejecters.
- And an announcement from The God and His messenger to the people on the greatest/peak day of the conference/symposium "The God is quit/free from the polytheists and so is His messenger". If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape The God. And give news to those who conceal/reject of a painful retribution.
- Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among the polytheists if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
- So when the restricted months are passed, then you may fight the polytheists wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then clear/vacate their way/path. Truly, The God is Turning/Forgiving, Embracing/Merciful.
- And if anyone from the polytheists seeks your protection, then you may protect him so that he may hear the word of The God, then deliver him to his safety/security. This is because they are a people who do not know.
- How can those polytheists have a pledge/agreement with The God and His messenger, except for those with whom you made a pledge/agreement at the institute of acknowledging the restriction? As long as they are straight with you, then you are straight with them. Truly, The God loves the forethoughtful/conscientious.
- How is it when they gain the upper-hand they disregard all ties, either those of kinship or of pledge. They seek to please you with their words, but their hearts are hostile, and most of them are wicked.
- They purchased with The God's signs/revelations a small gain, so they could turn others from His path. Truly, evil is what they were doing.
- They do not respect believers, nor a kinship, nor a pledge. These are the transgressors/wrongdoers.
- But if they repent, and uphold/maintain the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers/allies in the obligation/system. We detail/explain our signs/revelations for a people who know.
- And if they break their oaths after making them, and they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system; then you may fight the chiefs of ungratefulness/rejection. Truly, their oaths are nothing to them, perhaps they will then stop.
835
And their bond at the house was nothing but noise/whistling and clapping/aversion/deception. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.Interestingly, when two groups sign a treaty, make a public pledge etc, it is usually followed by group applause, celebratory noise etc in this case possible whistling and clapping. And since it says their bond/salat was nothing but this, this implies the actual pledge/bond aspect was meaningless, which makes it a fit.
Also, note the accuracy of usage of KFR in both passages.
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Peace Wakas,
911 But if they repent, and uphold the salat and bring forth the betterment, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain our signs for a people who know.
Don't you think that they became believers, based on the above verse?
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p1993,
To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 830-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 839 in conjunction with 911.
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p1993,
To answer your question, I have a radical idea, how about actually reading the referenced link in my last post? I wrote the article several years ago, and as far as I'm aware, no-one has written a rebuttal. The correlation between 830-40 adds more evidence to my view. I recommend reading them several times each, e.g read 839 in conjunction with 911.
I agree with you that 95-6 has nothing to do with ritual prayer, since it is talking about 'mushriks' holding the salat, whereas the salat as in reading the reading/quran at dawn and in the evening together with praising God, etc. is for the mumins.
In 911 it is different, since it talks about them being 'brothers in the system'.
I also agree with you that repentance does not mean 'conversion' (and definitely not in 95-6), but 911 talks about repentance AND them being brothers in the system. 912 says that if they violate their oaths and attack our system (ie. turn back to their old ways), then we may fight them. It is also significant that it uses 'the system' in 911 and 'your system' in 912, showing a change - they no longer are part of the system.
I also agree with you that 'salat' means 'bond'. Oath is a possibility, but there is already a word for that one used 'ayman'/'aymanahum'. 'Ties' and 'pledge' are also used in 97 and 910, which are similar-meaning words.
The contrast between "uphold the salat" + "bring forth the betterment" and "break their oaths after making them" + "they assail (cause damage) in your obligation/system" is quite interesting.
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.
I dont think that 95 is the same as/similar/talks about "the same 'salat'" as in 911/as described in 911.
I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).
834 Why should God not punish them when they are turning others away from the inviolable institution/place of obedience/temple, and they were never its protectors! Its protectors are the righteous. But most of them do not know.
835 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.
Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (835)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (2173). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (623,148; 1635). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..." -
I think the situation in chapter 8 is more likely to be the 'prayer-like salat' (ie. not oath).
835 Their salat at the house/sanctuary was nothing but deception/noise and aversion. Taste the retribution for what you have rejected.
Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (835)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (2173). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (623,148; 1635). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 835. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.
peace
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I recommend re-reading.
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Clearly, according to the dictionaries, akhw has a much wider meaning. In fact, 'the reading' itself confirms this understanding
And last but by no means least, nowhere in 'the reading' does it state fight those who break their "oath of Islam", i.e. those who become disbelievers after accepting Islam. In fact, people are free to believe then disbelieve if they wish .
The wording of this verse strongly implies that they (polytheists/transgressors) are not considered to be anything other than polytheists/transgressors "...and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system (deen)...". This clearly shows they are being discussed as separate groups and it was NEVER considered their "deen".
Cross reference with 839
"And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire deen is God's..."The obvious question what is deen? Since we know someone can assail (i.e. cause damage) in it, and just as someone can live according to it (see 1276), what is the obvious, and perhaps only answer? Is it a religion/system requiring its followers to all be of the same belief/faith? Only those of the same belief/faith can live in a deen? (disproven by the story of Joseph). Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community? Once this is understood, we can see why AQ uses the generic term akhw, incorrectly translated as "brother", as proven by AQ. From Lane's Lexicon "When it does not relate to birth, it means conformity/similarity and combination/agreement or unison in action.".
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding.
Please re-read the article several times, examining all concepts/words.
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Clear from 835? Nonsense.
Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.
yes their prayer-like salat doesn't make any sense. and we have no other evidence except 835
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you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 835. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.
peace
I said that it referred to them holding the salat (ie. holding the bond and "praying", if you understand that better, as opposed to making an oath.) Remember that salat = prayer
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If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.
"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head 3156
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Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (835)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (2173). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (623,148; 1635). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."What's your evidence for "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"
Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group 3783 .
How many deens are we to follow? Hint 3-19.
The deen/Islam has always been the same - 4213.
Wakas, do you think 3310-25 is also about the same events? I'm still studying it, so not sure either way. But it seems that way.
Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community?".
Chapter 107 is sufficient, imo. D
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"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head 3156
Your're right, but...
3156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun
...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen'.
What's your evidence for "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"
Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group 3783 .
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.
2125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who humble themselves and make obeisance."
2126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 As Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael, "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2128 "Our Lord, and let us peacefully surrender to You and from our progeny a nation peacefully surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Most Forgiving, the Compassionate."
2129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
2130 Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.
2173 We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and hold the bond and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.
396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
The deen/Islam has always been the same - 4213.
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.
548 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
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peace Jack,
Nice find with 3156. There is similar with 3318.
3310-25 doesn't seem to be related to 830-40 and/or 91-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.
Re 107
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words. -
Peace,
Your're right, but...
3156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun
...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen'.
To understand brothers in your deen, you have to understand what 'brother' really means.
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.
That in itself is not evidence. If indeed all the messengers are told the same thing (4143), how is Abraham told something different from Noah? Especially because he sprung from Noah's company. Noah also had a sanctuary/house - 7128. 3333 and 1087 give a good picture of the house.
Re 3-96
7-143
...When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."
Were there no believers before Moses?
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.
Why must "rites" be part of one's deen? What's the evidence for this view?
-There is only one system- islam - a common noun
-All the messengers followed the same system
-Al quran contrasts those who deny the system with shrik, e.g. 933, 1652 and 2965, as we segue back to chapter 9.
How do "jews" make a mockery of the system? 446
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Peace Wakas,
3310-25 doesn't seem to be related to 830-40 and/or 91-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.
This is true for the most part. I think it's showing 'the other side' - the believers and among them hypocrites..
It mentions allatheen kufaroo/those who concealed/rejected in 3325. I am basing it on 3325. The God sparing the believers any fighting = the treaty.
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.
Exactly.
It's difficult for some (consciously or subconsciously) to study AQ with no preconceptions. When I read it, I pretend I know nothing of a particular subject I am studying, so that new ideas might hit me. -
I would also try to contrast between 'deen' and 'iman'. Salat is performed by our 'brothers in deen' but never our 'brothers in iman'. There must be a reason for this.
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Yes it means " The Prayers." And the prayers were ordained on the belivers, not the non believers. God is seeking those believers being led by the Spirit to establish alssalawaati. Thus, you caint expect the unbelievers to keep the prayers. peace And asalat is used in 5/106 to make it clear to you. peace
Here's a breakdown of 5/106 for your convenience
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ? O you who BELIEVE. (so who is the audience here? BELIEVERS)
shahadatu bayniKUM itha hadara ahadaKUMU almawtu heena alwasiyyati ? take witnsseses between YOU when one of YOU is close to death during the time of drawing up the will (so once again, the YOU here refers to who? Believers)
thawa AAadlin minKUM - 2 posessors of justice from YOU. (and yet again, we have the YOU who are the BELIEVERS)
aw akharani min ghayriKUM ? or 2 others from OTHER than YOU (who are other than BELIEVERS? Non-believers)
in antum darabtum fee al-ardi ? if you are travelling through the earth
faasabatKUM museebatu almawti ? and death befalls you.
tahbisoonahuma min baAAdi alssalati ? detain them both after AS-SALATIt can?t get clearer than this. As-salat is definitely not the prayers.
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On another thread, member Mazhar raised a concern that a conditional and apodosis clause somehow shows the following
Once the conditions are fulfilled, they are no more polytheists; they have become Muslims for which reason the apodosis clause declares them as brothers in Deen Islam. Ideologically reverting to Monotheism and then the two physical performances are the symbols of Islam.
Plenty of baseless interpolations in the above.
And then claimed
A conditional sentence alongwith apodosis clause does not mean commanding some body as is your basic argument in the link under discussion.
But failed to provide a quote from my article wherein I state they are commanded. Not to mention the above statement seem to misunderstand my argument.
My argument is simple there is very little to no evidence of a conversion (which the traditional understanding of salat requires). Those disputing this usually argue along the lines of this is an exception in Quran and a conversion is implied, not explicit. Some may find this argument acceptable, I don't.
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7-143
...When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."
Were there no believers before Moses?
Peace Jack@
A more coherent understanding of the passage in question would be that Moses declared himself to be the first of the "acknowledgers" i.e. he acknowleged that G-D cannot be seen (by mortals).
SLM
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Amen means to realize or make something a particular way through realization and not believe. Moses realized as a consequence of the experience.
And the lesson is that God has no form or shape, or time and place, but it omnipresent and in control of every atom. Moses realized this among other things. He was repentant because he had already known the nature of God but was still testing God due to some doubt inside him. After this he had realized for sure.
Salaam
