salat = prayer? How do you explain this then...
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I recommend re-reading.
From http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htm
Clearly, according to the dictionaries, akhw has a much wider meaning. In fact, 'the reading' itself confirms this understanding
And last but by no means least, nowhere in 'the reading' does it state fight those who break their "oath of Islam", i.e. those who become disbelievers after accepting Islam. In fact, people are free to believe then disbelieve if they wish .
The wording of this verse strongly implies that they (polytheists/transgressors) are not considered to be anything other than polytheists/transgressors "...and THEY assail in YOUR obligation/system (deen)...". This clearly shows they are being discussed as separate groups and it was NEVER considered their "deen".
Cross reference with 839
"And fight them all until there is no more oppression, and so that the entire deen is God's..."The obvious question what is deen? Since we know someone can assail (i.e. cause damage) in it, and just as someone can live according to it (see 1276), what is the obvious, and perhaps only answer? Is it a religion/system requiring its followers to all be of the same belief/faith? Only those of the same belief/faith can live in a deen? (disproven by the story of Joseph). Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community? Once this is understood, we can see why AQ uses the generic term akhw, incorrectly translated as "brother", as proven by AQ. From Lane's Lexicon "When it does not relate to birth, it means conformity/similarity and combination/agreement or unison in action.".
If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding.
Please re-read the article several times, examining all concepts/words.
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Clear from 835? Nonsense.
Yes, when one has no evidence, guesswork is all they have.
yes their prayer-like salat doesn't make any sense. and we have no other evidence except 835
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you are right, salat of polytheists is more prayer-like salat as its clear from 835. and I guess quran doesn't confirm their prayer-like salat.
peace
I said that it referred to them holding the salat (ie. holding the bond and "praying", if you understand that better, as opposed to making an oath.) Remember that salat = prayer
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If there was no 'then they are brothers in your system' and no changing of 'the system' to 'your system' I would totally agree with you in your understanding. The meaning of 'bond', 'bonding', etc. for salat and its derivatives is applicable for all/nearly all verses in the reading/quran, IMO.
"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head 3156
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Edip-Layth - End Note 3 (835)
"The Quran informs us that the practices of Islam were initially revealed to Abraham. Abraham and his followers were observing the sala prayer (2173). Meccan polytheists never accepted that they were polytheists (623,148; 1635). Since they believed in the intercession of some holy people, and since they falsely attributed numerous prohibitions and rules to God, the Quran considered them polytheists..."What's your evidence for "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"
Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group 3783 .
How many deens are we to follow? Hint 3-19.
The deen/Islam has always been the same - 4213.
Wakas, do you think 3310-25 is also about the same events? I'm still studying it, so not sure either way. But it seems that way.
Or is it simply a system, an obligation, that which is due, a requital, a power-relation, a real-world structure / way of life.... that anyone can live in, as long as they accept and therefore abide by the deen of that land/community?".
Chapter 107 is sufficient, imo. D
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"Brothers" has been used for the disbelievers/truth concealers, as well, If you research akhwa. Just off the top of my head 3156
Your're right, but...
3156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun
...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen'.
What's your evidence for "The quran informs us that the practices of islam were initially revealed to abraham,"
Which deen was Noah following? Abraham came from Noah's group 3783 .
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.
2125 We have made the sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. Utilize the place of Abraham to reach out. We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael, "You shall purify My sanctuary for those who visit, those who are devoted, and for those who humble themselves and make obeisance."
2126 Abraham said, "My Lord, make this town secure, and provide for its inhabitants of the fruits for whoever acknowledges God and the Last day." He said, "As for he who does not appreciate, I will let him enjoy for a while, then I will force him to the retribution of the fire, what a miserable destiny!"
2127 As Abraham raised the foundations for the sanctuary with Ishmael, "Our Lord accept this from us, You are the Hearer, the Knowledgeable."
2128 "Our Lord, and let us peacefully surrender to You and from our progeny a nation peacefully surrendering to You, and show us our rites and forgive us; You are the Most Forgiving, the Compassionate."
2129 "Our Lord, and send amongst them a messenger from among themselves, that he may recite to them Your signs and teach them the book and the wisdom, and purify them. You are the Noble, the Wise."
2130 Who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter, he is of the reformers.
2173 We made them leaders who guide by Our command, and We inspired them to do good work and hold the bond and contribute towards betterment, and they were in service to Us.
396 The first house established for the public is the one in Bakka, blessed, and guidance for the worlds.
The deen/Islam has always been the same - 4213.
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.
548 We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
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peace Jack,
Nice find with 3156. There is similar with 3318.
3310-25 doesn't seem to be related to 830-40 and/or 91-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.
Re 107
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words. -
Peace,
Your're right, but...
3156 Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola takoonoo kaallatheena kafaroo waqalooli-ikhwanihim itha daraboo fee al-ardiaw kanoo ghuzzan law kanoo AAindana mamatoo wama qutiloo liyajAAala Allahu thalikahasratan fee quloobihim waAllahu yuhyeewayumeetu waAllahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun
...there is no 'deen' here (ie. it doesnt say 'brothers in your deen'.
To understand brothers in your deen, you have to understand what 'brother' really means.
That doesnt mean that the rites/practices (like hajj, for example) didnt start with Abraham.
That in itself is not evidence. If indeed all the messengers are told the same thing (4143), how is Abraham told something different from Noah? Especially because he sprung from Noah's company. Noah also had a sanctuary/house - 7128. 3333 and 1087 give a good picture of the house.
Re 3-96
7-143
...When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."
Were there no believers before Moses?
Just because one is submitting to God doesnt mean that they have rites/practices.
Why must "rites" be part of one's deen? What's the evidence for this view?
-There is only one system- islam - a common noun
-All the messengers followed the same system
-Al quran contrasts those who deny the system with shrik, e.g. 933, 1652 and 2965, as we segue back to chapter 9.
How do "jews" make a mockery of the system? 446
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Peace Wakas,
3310-25 doesn't seem to be related to 830-40 and/or 91-19, as it is about the hypocrites fighting along with the "believers" against others, not of polytheists and a treaty with them to live in peace, then attacking them etc.
This is true for the most part. I think it's showing 'the other side' - the believers and among them hypocrites..
It mentions allatheen kufaroo/those who concealed/rejected in 3325. I am basing it on 3325. The God sparing the believers any fighting = the treaty.
Yes, what deen is, is rather obvious. A common problem is some people look at Arabic words and think they have a magical/special religious-orientated meaning, e.g. "salat", "zakat", "akhw", "mulsim", "mumin", "kafir", "deen", "hajj", "malaika", "shaytan" etc...... when the fact is, the religious-ification of islam, al quran, its words/concepts came later. This can be seen by a simple study of AQ itself and how it uses these words.
Exactly.
It's difficult for some (consciously or subconsciously) to study AQ with no preconceptions. When I read it, I pretend I know nothing of a particular subject I am studying, so that new ideas might hit me. -
I would also try to contrast between 'deen' and 'iman'. Salat is performed by our 'brothers in deen' but never our 'brothers in iman'. There must be a reason for this.
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Yes it means " The Prayers." And the prayers were ordained on the belivers, not the non believers. God is seeking those believers being led by the Spirit to establish alssalawaati. Thus, you caint expect the unbelievers to keep the prayers. peace And asalat is used in 5/106 to make it clear to you. peace
Here's a breakdown of 5/106 for your convenience
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo ? O you who BELIEVE. (so who is the audience here? BELIEVERS)
shahadatu bayniKUM itha hadara ahadaKUMU almawtu heena alwasiyyati ? take witnsseses between YOU when one of YOU is close to death during the time of drawing up the will (so once again, the YOU here refers to who? Believers)
thawa AAadlin minKUM - 2 posessors of justice from YOU. (and yet again, we have the YOU who are the BELIEVERS)
aw akharani min ghayriKUM ? or 2 others from OTHER than YOU (who are other than BELIEVERS? Non-believers)
in antum darabtum fee al-ardi ? if you are travelling through the earth
faasabatKUM museebatu almawti ? and death befalls you.
tahbisoonahuma min baAAdi alssalati ? detain them both after AS-SALATIt can?t get clearer than this. As-salat is definitely not the prayers.
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On another thread, member Mazhar raised a concern that a conditional and apodosis clause somehow shows the following
Once the conditions are fulfilled, they are no more polytheists; they have become Muslims for which reason the apodosis clause declares them as brothers in Deen Islam. Ideologically reverting to Monotheism and then the two physical performances are the symbols of Islam.
Plenty of baseless interpolations in the above.
And then claimed
A conditional sentence alongwith apodosis clause does not mean commanding some body as is your basic argument in the link under discussion.
But failed to provide a quote from my article wherein I state they are commanded. Not to mention the above statement seem to misunderstand my argument.
My argument is simple there is very little to no evidence of a conversion (which the traditional understanding of salat requires). Those disputing this usually argue along the lines of this is an exception in Quran and a conversion is implied, not explicit. Some may find this argument acceptable, I don't.
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7-143
...When he awoke, he said "Glory be to You, I repent to You and I am the first of those who believe."
Were there no believers before Moses?
Peace Jack@
A more coherent understanding of the passage in question would be that Moses declared himself to be the first of the "acknowledgers" i.e. he acknowleged that G-D cannot be seen (by mortals).
SLM
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Amen means to realize or make something a particular way through realization and not believe. Moses realized as a consequence of the experience.
And the lesson is that God has no form or shape, or time and place, but it omnipresent and in control of every atom. Moses realized this among other things. He was repentant because he had already known the nature of God but was still testing God due to some doubt inside him. After this he had realized for sure.
Salaam
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Peace MOF,
hope everything is going well your way.
As far as i know, derivatives of the (semitic) root mn ( ن can denote various meanings (depending on the context), including acceptance, acknowledgement, trust, confidence, conviction, assurance, safety, security
My (current) understanding is that mana (َ means To acknowledge (ie. accept as true, real, or factual). Its 'direct antonym' (in the Qurn) is kafara (َ which means To deny (ie. reject as untrue, unreal, or fictional)
Ps imo, Mose's request was not initiated by "doubt"
but curiosity.SLM
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Yes Hicham. You are right. Moses was curious. But apparently he did not understand that Allah cannot be seen visually hence his question. His response is that now he realizes about the nature of Allah. I doubt the Rabb really sought to hurt Moses due to his innocent question though, but the Rabb probably shook the mountain pretty well.
I do find amen to be more of a realization than to acknowledge something, even if both realization and acknowledgement can be considered related to each other. However, I find realization to be more versatile and fit for the usage in whole Quran.
If you have for example , used several times in the shorter surahs, then it speaks of having a (substantial) realization, e.g. "Aha! I understand/realize (this) now". This is also as I perceive how Moses responded the Rabb in the ayah in question.
Kafar is slightly more controversial than yours. I feel it implies more on the production of something than to cover something up, suppress or deny. The Rabb is furious about blasted fabricators than of someone who chooses to disbelieve. The hateful passages towards kafaroon are simply disproportionate to their failure to realize there is a "higher intelligence". On the other hand I can give empathy and sympathy to the Rabb for anger with fabricators, i.e. a person who either lies or bases his or her foundation on conjecture.
Anyway, we both hopefully do the will of the Rabb and we dispute on mere formalities. I have some different perception considered the being of Allah and that is rather than treating the Rabb separately I claim that we should be absorbed in what is Allah and thus synchronously do the will of Allah rather than exist separately ourselves. I see no use in projecting Allah as an image of anything in Heaven or Earth since Allah is all existence.
Most people on the forum think this or that about my regard of Allah which Rabb I do the will of wholeheartedly in spite of what people think.
And I take do mean submission and to be confident/reliant/safe/whole/peaceful/harmonious. Aslama Lrabb is to trust (have faith in) the Rabb. It all circulates around faithfulness. Faith is security and you put your security to Allah. That is still not submission by definition but to depend on Allah.
Ok highly my controversial argument, but as according to me is "Conscious To Thereof" (where "thereof" obviously depends on context/mental image). I worked for months to reach an understanding and personal consensus on that and this is the present one. But it can, if right, testify that Salam means you have something to depend on, a shelter, safety.
Not sure why it is so twisted up, but it seems like someone knew what the text was supposed to say but mixed up the words.
But of course, you may as most everyone else consider it conjecture. I wish you salam anyway.
Salaam
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can you please explain exactly what this apparent 'most powerful argument' is?
See
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htmSince writing the article, the only somewhat plausible explanation given, albeit weak in my view, is that these verses are referring to an exception to no compulsion in deen/etc. If one can accept such a critical exception being mentioned in an indirect manner, and having no precedence in Quran, then fair enough - each to their own view.
