Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace to all,
As much as I disagree with Belal's approach at this subject, some of his points are legitimate. Although the original concept of the "Free-Minds" may have been non-sectarianism, the atmosphere has since changed. It's not based on having religious leaders and scholars, it's about the universal doctrine of Islaam. As soon as people begin reducing that universal doctrine (i.e. declaring that others who don't hold their same views are not "real" Muslims, claiming that the heads of other Islaamic movements are "liars", etc.), the organization inherently becomes sectarian. An overwhelming majority of people on this site seem to have deep, and mostly unwarranted, hatred for Sunnis and Shias, Rashad Khalifa and his followers, and many other groups (who all call themselves "muslims", to the point that they blatantly call the followers of these groups "kafir", all because they hold different beliefs. This is sectarian, and since this is the prevalent ideology present among the "Free-Minds", then the Free-Minds group is another sect of Islaam...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace all
I do not know if this is going to make you feel comfortable or not, but before the advent of Hassan Albanna, Syed Qutb, and other mujaddideen, there was a similar huge problem at the turn of the last century...
Among the Sunnis there was a deep division between the muslim people of the four madhahibs, the divisions were so deep that in fact
each group would consider the other a kafir and would refuse to pray behind a leader of another group, like say a Hanif would refuse to pray behind a Maliki, or a Hanbali would refuse to go to the funeral of a Shafiee...
It was only the unifying cry of the Muslim Brotherhood under the leadership of Hassan AlBanna that stopped this...
Now what could you call this? Some called this being under the influence of Satan...
Some scholars said that actually difference of opinions are good because they force change and improvement, but of course no one acts on this, because it is easier to carry on the old scripts.
Now belh, no one said you were not a muslim if you did not believe all the opinions of the free-mind web-site group, on the contrary, these are open to debate, it is not a comfortable debate, because we are not always mostly pleasant people when it comes to things we hold fast to, but place of debate it is.
However it is not a place or an excuse for name calling, being rude, and ridiculing others' belief.
There is a fine line to achieve constructive criticism without offending... but we must try...
as for playing the victim or putting others down to get one's point across, well it is a manoeuvre, but it does not work with experienced orators...
and it is easy, if you do not like the forum, you know what to do, cyberspace is vast... -
as for playing the victim or putting others down to get one's point across, well it is a manoeuvre, but it does not work with experienced orators...
and it is easy, if you do not like the forum, you know what to do, cyberspace is vast...Peace all,
That would be your dream if I leave this form for people who want to hijack my Quran and misrepresent to the reader; will...I will keep posting the truth about Ramadan and your Lunar-Solar Calender that discounts one Moon Cycle every three years, and calls for 2 different Ramadan Months for the Northern and Southern Hemisphere.
My grieves about free-minds.org becoming sectarian will not be enough reason for me to leave you and Ayman to keep posting twisted lies to advocate your argument. -
Let These be my requests to Free-Minds.org
Let your website be the battle ground for Good Vs Evil.
Let the Readers decide and differentiate between Good and Evil.
Let Free-Minds.org be the Moderator, and not the one who decide for the readers what constitute Good and Evil.
The Only one who can Constitute Good and Evil is Our Lord.Let us all build on one mutual understanding Quran, Bible and Torah are Good, and Other Man-made books are Evil.
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BelH,
First, my criticism of Free-minds was different than yours. Second, when I learned more about them, I made some correction in my evaluation, which I have mentioned in my previous posts.
Let's say tomorrow an islamophoic visitor of this site posted a message accusing free-minds for promoting Taliban-like sharia laws. Would you approve such a criticism? If you post a short response rejecting such an accusation, would the islamophoic be justified if he or she accuses you of flip-flopping, since you had in the past criticized free-minds?
So, before attacking another person's honesty and intention, think a few seconds. If it would take you longer to connect the dots, then think a few minutes or even hours. ;D
Peace,
Edip -
BelH,
First, my criticism of Free-minds was different than yours. Second, when I learned more about them, I made some correction in my evaluation, which I have mentioned in my previous posts.
Let's say tomorrow an islamophoic visitor of this site posted a message accusing free-minds for promoting Taliban-like sharia laws. Would you approve such a criticism? If you post a short response rejecting such an accusation, would the islamophoic be justified if he or she accuses you of flip-flopping, since you had in the past criticized free-minds?
So, before attacking another person's honesty and intention, think a few seconds. If it would take you longer to connect the dots, then think a few minutes or even hours. ;D
Peace,
EdipEdip, how long did it take you to think and connect the dots before you realized your accusation to free-minds was wrong. ;D
By the way, Do you agree to my requests
Let These be my requests to Free-Minds.org
Let your website be the battle ground for Good Vs Evil.
Let the Readers decide and differentiate between Good and Evil.
Let Free-Minds.org be the Moderator, and not the one who decide for the readers what constitute Good and Evil.
The Only one who can Constitute Good and Evil is Our Lord.Let us all build on one mutual understanding Quran, Bible and Torah are Good, and Other Man-made books are Evil.
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Let us all build on one mutual understanding Quran, Bible and Torah are Good, and Other Man-made books are Evil.
Do you really know what you are talking about? What is the Bible? Where is it? How many books and verses does it have? Have you read the Bible? How many contradictions are there in the Bible?
Besides, you remind me Tertullian. He too wanted to ban philosophy, since he thought that truth could not be found in any other book, except Bible. Rejecting manmade books as infallible divine authority for eternal salvation is very different than rejecting them as you do.
This will be perhaps my last engagement with you, since... Well, many will understand the reason.
Take care, relax, and learn how to think properly. hmm
Peace,
Edip -
Do you really know what you are talking about? What is the Bible? Where is it? How many books and verses does it have? Have you read the Bible? How many contradictions are there in the Bible?
Besides, you remind me Tertullian. He too wanted to ban philosophy, since he thought that truth could not be found in any other book, except Bible. Rejecting manmade books as infallible divine authority for eternal salvation is very different than rejecting them as you do.
This will be perhaps my last engagement with you, since... Well, many will understand the reason.
Take care, relax, and learn how to think properly. hmm
Peace,
EdipEdip,
Your problem is your lack of understanding God's Message that calls for
No one has the authority to write a Book and say it has God's Laws.
God emphasized several times about the Truth of the Bible and the Torah.Thus, this is indisputable Quranic Laws
Quran, Bible and Torah are Good, and Other Man-made books are Evil.
If you disagree that the Bible is not true, why did you use it
The Bible says, "Accept the truth so that the truth will set you free."
Flip Flopping? or Hypocrisy? or too much writings? rotfl
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BelH, what are we supposed to do with Quran?
Are we meant to read and apply it? IF we are meant to do so, do you expect our interpretations (in plural because there is more than one) to be EXACTLY alike Sunnis and Shia?
What do you constitute as a 'lie' ? Any divergence from mainstream opinion? How come what THEY say aren't lies? Cause they said it first?
FM is not a sect. It's a forum. It has opinions in its site but many disagree with them.
Sunnism and Shiasm are sects. Here's why
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In both, you have to believe in Muhammad. FM is more universal, islam here is descriptive of ur character, not culture.
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In both, you have to pray in Arabic through an ancient Arabic ritual. FM ppl generally don't care how you pray.
I could go on....
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Peace belH,
I was very close to do what now Edip is doing, putting you in my ignore list for a while as I told you, you even started mocking me for having been an imam in my past, so you do flip flop too, accusing others of the same...
As Edip said, you really need to allow Allah's guidance in your heart, as it seems to me you are very confused right now, and seem more under the influence of people like guest, than as an independent human being.
Do not forget that the Quran was revealed to save Man from the slavery of his kind to the Worship of his Creator, but you do not seem to understand what this worship means, and it will take time...
if you already think you have the answers, that exactly means you do not have them, it is Shaitan playing tricks on you, as only the fools and the ignorant will say that...
you can carry on in the false comfort that you are well guided, life is very short, and the judgment is very near, and most of humanity and the jinn are destined to the hell pit, so if you are comfortable to take your chances, keep on defending what you have decided you are right about to start with until your death...
it is the same with all the people born into a belief system, it is all they know, their comfort zone, and they will defend it tooth and nail... i know, only removing ameen from my ritual prayer was a stuggle, but that is the test, Allah has to be sure that we are worthy of his Paradise...
"will we be allowed into Paradise, just by saying we believe without being tested", and you think fitna is easy belH, well ...
have a nice life... as for the rest I worry first and foremost about my own... -
Peace all,
I knew that this thread was going to be taughtBelH, what are we supposed to do with Quran?
Are we meant to read and apply it? IF we are meant to do so, do you expect our interpretations (in plural because there is more than one) to be EXACTLY alike Sunnis and Shia?
What do you constitute as a 'lie' ? Any divergence from mainstream opinion? How come what THEY say aren't lies? Cause they said it first?
FM is not a sect. It's a forum. It has opinions in its site but many disagree with them.
Sunnism and Shiasm are sects. Here's why
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In both, you have to believe in Muhammad. FM is more universal, islam here is descriptive of ur character, not culture.
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In both, you have to pray in Arabic through an ancient Arabic ritual. FM ppl generally don't care how you pray.
I could go on....
Free-Minds.org should be the Moderator and not the judge between the different understanding of Quran. And if they choose otherwise, then I and others who disagree with their understanding have all the right to criticize them.
if you already think you have the answers, that exactly means you do not have them, it is Shaitan playing tricks on you, as only the fools and the ignorant will say that...
The Quran has all the clear answers that we need in order to be on the Straight Path. Very well-established Answers that no one can have any excuse to say "The Quran was not clear" and therefore I was misguided.
you can carry on in the false comfort that you are well guided, life is very short, and the judgment is very near, and most of humanity and the jinn are destined to the hell pit, so if you are comfortable to take your chances, keep on defending what you have decided you are right about to start with until your death...
it is the same with all the people born into a belief system, it is all they know, their comfort zone, and they will defend it tooth and nail... i know, only removing ameen from my ritual prayer was a stuggle, but that is the test, Allah has to be sure that we are worthy of his Paradise...
"will we be allowed into Paradise, just by saying we believe without being tested", and you think fitna is easy belH, well ...
have a nice life... as for the rest I worry first and foremost about my own...As far as I know, me and you do not agree on Ramadan issue and the Calender issue...And because of this, you and Ayman have accused us by calling us sectarians...Well, who is guided and who is misguided? Does free-minds.org have the right to advocate your understanding against ours? or should they be the moderator?
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FM is not a sect. It's a forum. It has opinions in its site but many disagree with them.
Sunnism and Shiasm are sects. Here's why
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In both, you have to believe in Muhammad. FM is more universal, islam here is descriptive of ur character, not culture.
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In both, you have to pray in Arabic through an ancient Arabic ritual. FM ppl generally don't care how you pray.
I could go on....
I disagree with you on this... Yes, Free-Minds has various opinions concerning Islaamic teachings. However, if a person is opposed to certain ideologies that are accepted by "long-standing members", that person is viewed as wrong and unknowledgeable. Other groups ("sects" within the Free-Minds forum also do the same thing, going to the point of calling names and insulting other sects and members of them. That, by definition, is a sect...
When it comes to the Free-Minds forum, in comparison to the Sunnis and Shias, the doctrines are the same when it comes to prophets. Yes, Sunnis and Shias teach that you must believe in Muhammad, but it's no different than their teachings instructing their followers to believe in Moses and Jesus. And the members of Free-Minds are also expected to believe in the prophets, including Muhammad. Belief in Muhammad doesn't have anything to do with believing in a culture or nation, since even Sunni Islaam is universal; people of all races and backgrounds are allowed to embrace Sunni (traditional) Islaam... Also, all Sunni groups don't tell members that they MUST pray in Arabic; by most, it's considered optional and applaudable, but not mandatory. In many groups, it is acceptable to pray in one's own language, since simply reciting from memory in a foreign language will reduce the feelings of honor and humility when performing the prayer. Islaamic prayer should come from the heart, and it should be done in a language that the praying person understands. The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.
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The Free-Minds, however, in many cases, tell their members NOT to pray at all, saying that the concept of "salaat" (if taken to mean prayer) involves no rituals, and that the Qur'aanic command to 'bow and prostrate' are only metaphorical, not literal.
Peace Bro,
Well count me out on this one. Salaat has a physical ritual aspect to it that is clearly explained in The Quran.
To be honest belH, you took more than you can chew, initially, you played the cool dude making a mockery of sunnis and imams, then
you started feeling uncomfortable, maybe with a reverse pang of guilt, no matter, I went through all that too...
I really wish you well, and everyone here, but there is one simple reason why there are conflicting interpretations, it is because many of those doing the interpreting are intellectually lazy and amateurish linguists pretty much hobbyists to tell the truth, and with no command of the Arabic language, let alone that of the Quran.
Another reason is that many are reacting to the straightjacket of sectarianism, and so, will unfortunately err on the side of interpretations just for the purpose of contradicting the interpretations of "sectarians" even if those tafseers are in fact correct.
This is why as a person who is lucky enough to have been brought up learning Arabic by a father who was an islamic judge, i try to moderate my views, and look at both sides of the arguments, and as Allah suggested, and this includes even the understanding of the Quran, "those who listen to what is said and extract what is best" ...
There is really no point arguing with people who have rigid mindsets, Allah said clearly "dhakir idha nafa'ati adhikra" "remind if reminding is of benefit" and this applies to anybody, so called sectarian (aren't we all btw ) or any other denomination you can dream of. Allah also says "dhakir inna adhikra tanfa'u almu'umineen" "remind reminding benefits believers", but since we are far from being believers, that will apply much later, Allah willing...
There are some interesting patterns among free-minders, similar to the ones probably that shaped early Islam to what it is today, albeit of course in a modern framework.
Dependent on their origin, people have a tendency to interpret the Quran in accordance to their mindset, so for those whose background cannot imagine a God who will punish with Hell-Fire, they will tend to ascribe all the descriptions of Hell as allegorical/metaphorical.
Others who cannot accept the existence of other intelligent life forms beyond the realm of our senses will also do something similar.
I recount once a hilarious mis-interpretation of a verse of someone who could not accept that Prophet Jonah was swallowed by a Big Fish / Whale, and he decided to translate "subhanaka" as "swimming" meaning that Allah asked him to swim away from the fish, not be swallowed by it, whereas in fact the word means "praise" and is written differently from "swim", of course that person was not a native arabic speaker.
I can carry on, but for me what I learn is that we move through guidance at different paces, what is important is to be open to Allah's guidance, like Abraham was (he saw Venus he said this is my God... etc).
and to die as a muslim (Jacob to his children on his death bed do not die but as muslims).
then we are truly saved... -
theNabster, nicely said.
i think that's part of the problem with so many positions it can overwhelm the mind. We all have predispositions and people try to rebel against it because they think it will influence their conclusion (which yes it will) but also rebelling against it does the same.
all people do things according to their mindset or some other 'greater' person's mindset
peace.
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peace,
The verse is very well-established and cannot be twisted.
Established in your own mind perhaps. Tell us, why did Joseph "twist" it and not cut off hands for theft? Tell us, what happens when someone steals a small item, such as a pen?
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598013.30
I did not see any "indisputable" evidence. I saw evidence that was so poor it is nowhere near the vicinity of "indisputable". Anyone can understand the meaning of "maqam" by simply reading its occurrences in AQ.
So, why free-minds is saying that the Suni and Shia Calender is only Lunar Calender?
They use the sun to calculate day
They use the Moon cycle to calculate the month
and they count 12 moon cycle to calculate the year.All I know is the free-minds homepage is saying the year is luni-solar, as opposed to the Sunni luni year version. If it is not clear, then it is not clear, but the fact remains you criticised it and also brought a luni-solar theory. Perhaps you meant to say your theory and their theory is not identical, hence the alleged "lie".
Does the above means that Free-mind's understanding is the True Islam Message? If yes, if we do not agree, then we do not follow the Islam Guidance, and therefore, we are not Moslems.
It points out the differences. In any case, your above statement is not the same as what you said earlier
the same with Free-Minds, you are not a true Moslem unless you believe in all of their understanding
Who is the one lying now? It is you, unless you can evidence your statement. Perhaps if you clarified and said "they imply that..." or "that can be taken to mean..." or "i interpret that as...".
The Welcome page is not an article, rather, it is Free-minds.org core view of Islam.
So the homepage is a sect, but not the rest of the site? ;D
But thanks for quoting the homepage, note the words in bold
Therefore, the clearest difference is that Islam is a monotheistic, clear, consistent, dynamic, progressive, balanced system...a system that eliminates conjectures, hearsay, fairy tales and contradictions...therefore it eliminates hardship, confusion, chaos, and division. It is a system which puts more accent on the usage of intellect, reason, pondering over God, His Creation, meaning of life, pondering over everything...
Does the word "everything" include the homepage? Tell us BelH.
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To me, this seems like another sect that has its own laws that are not 100% from Quran; thus, they are promoting what is not 100% Pure Islam.
PeacePeace,
Respectfully.Muslims follow The Quran.
Sunnis say they follow The Quran but i have seen them and heard them break the rules and orders from The Quran and decided to follow books written by strange men, known as Bukhary and "Muslim", who claim that their narrations are authentic because it says so on the cover of their book.God SWT doesn't need to put sahih on the cover of The Quran.
God gives you brain and you'll eventually discover that what God said in The Quran, really is The Truth.Last night i was talking up until 0200 with a group of sunnis and they have been running towards quoting hadeeth most of the time, rather then answering my quotes from The Quran. When i did quote ayyas from The Quran, they'd ignore it or tell me that i simply don't understand it .... without the "tafseer" or some baseless hadeeth.
Bottom-line is this in Islam, there's no such thing as sects. We were called Muslims way before messenger/prophet Muhammad.
God bless you.
Peace. -
Peace,
Respectfully.Muslims follow The Quran.
Sunnis say they follow The Quran but i have seen them and heard them break the rules and orders from The Quran and decided to follow books written by strange men, known as Bukhary and "Muslim", who claim that their narrations are authentic because it says so on the cover of their book.God SWT doesn't need to put sahih on the cover of The Quran.
God gives you brain and you'll eventually discover that what God said in The Quran, really is The Truth.Last night i was talking up until 0200 with a group of sunnis and they have been running towards quoting hadeeth most of the time, rather then answering my quotes from The Quran. When i did quote ayyas from The Quran, they'd ignore it or tell me that i simply don't understand it .... without the "tafseer" or some baseless hadeeth.
Bottom-line is this in Islam, there's no such thing as sects. We were called Muslims way before messenger/prophet Muhammad.
God bless you.
Peace.do you have the hard argument why bukhari and muslim has disputed?, would you please to describe how the quran emerge and became the scripture with the syakal and ahraf al sab'ah? give me the argument
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Salam,
This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).
Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son
4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons
- The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.
4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?
- The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?
- The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.
9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.
Finally, if what is projected on this site is 'falsehood' then we can all rest assured that what is being projected will fade away, but if what is being projected is the truth, then it will remain long after we are all gone...
1317 He sends down water from the sky, so valleys flow according to their capacity, and the flood produces foam. And from what they burn to smelt jewelry or goods is produced a similar foam. It is in such a manor that God strikes the falsehood with the truth. As for the foam, it passes away, and as for what benefits the people, it remains in the earth. It is such that God puts forth the examples.
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Peace all,
Salam,
This site/forum was created to give people a free platform to discuss/debate and study the word of God as it deserved to be studied - never to be against God's system...To make the site or its members to be the object/goal rather than God Alone is an 'abomination' (always wanted to use that word in a sentence!).
Here is what FM promotes 'To serve God alone and to teach that the Quran's laws overide any/all opinoins no matter what.' If that is the teachings of a sect, then I gladly will be first to belong to such sect. Or, as the prophet Mohammed said when people kept insisting that God had a son
4381 Say ?If the Almighty had a son, I would be the first to serve!?
And that is the reason I joined this forum; however, when I read their understanding of God's system (the topic of my thread), I disagreed.
I have observed that the negative repsonces (not this thread - but in general) to our movement and by extension to this site are attributed (but not limited to) to a number of reasons
- The attacks are done by people who continue to 'reject' the system of God and who do not believe in the words of the Quran - thus they attempt to make 'noise so as to distract from the study of the Quran.
4126 And those who rejected said ?Do not listen to this Reading and make noise over it that you may succeed.?
I do not reject the system of God that is very well defined in the Quran, Torah and Injeel, rather, I reject all the Man made systems that violates the well-established meanings of God's system.
- The attacks are done by people who are 'scared' of the changes that takes them away from their established norms/comfort-zone.
2170 And if they are told ?Follow what God has sent down,? they say ?No, we will follow what we found our fathers doing!? What if their fathers did not comprehend anything and were not guided?
I never was scared to change when finding that my established understanding of Quran is wrong; examples, I changed my position of "Hajj to Macca" to "Hajj to Jerusalem" due to YOUR Analysis (which I'm currently defending in this thread); I changed from praying 5 times to 3 times; I rejected all the hadiths that violates the Quran teachings.
- The attacks are done by people who are 'ignorant' of what the Quran teaches and are in a rush to make judgement without taking the time for proper study/reflection.
9122 And it is not advisable for the believers to mobilize in their entirety. For every battalion that marches out, let a group remain to study the system, and warn their people when they return to them, perhaps they will be aware.
If my understanding that Hajj should be to Jerusalem is an IGNORANT understanding, then, why did you write your study that was the Main reason that caused me to have an Ignorant understanding? If you choose to abandon your Ideas that you promoted (through your article), then you are obligated to tell us why your understanding was an Ignorant understanding. Then, may be I will agree with you, or maybe I will adopt it and continue to defend.
