Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace belH,
May the verses you sent guide us all to what Allah wishes.
These verses are very important and again emphasize that we need to focus on the Quran as a basis for our understanding. Now if you combine that with the verse of my signature, the environment needs to be studied, and with other verses Allah urges to study our environment, together as what is within ourselves, and then verify for ourselves, by any means at our disposal, that indeed what is said in the Quran is indeed the Truth.
This is supposed to be ongoing, it has not stopped with Imam Shafie, or Ibn Taimia, Hassan Al Banna, Syed Qutb or Muhamed Abdu (to cite Arab "reformers".
I would think that after a long period of stagnation, it is overdue to look into every single thing that deals with the faith, and verify everything as far back as the first schisms in Islam happened.
Allah is very patient, but He has a plan, and no one can stop His plan, so if we are not worthy, He will destroy us and find others more worthy to carry His plan.
There are already people who have the correct attitude, but not the correct belief, they are misled by the "muslims" themselves (which is a crime against Allah) because they present to them a bad image of Islam.
Read this for instance, this is a beautiful example of someone who should have been a Muslim doing his job of working to unravel the secrets of God's creation, and in the process finding something useful to help mankind. Now when he succeeds, how many "muslims" will be saved by his efforts. And how many "muslims" will also be punished because he was not exposed to the true message of Islam?
http//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article6859344.ece
In the same way Mr Ayman is making an effort to understand the Quran, I was easily convinced from the start by him because I was not brought up by a sectarian (my father was a muslim), and because I strongly believe that Allah gave us logic, geometry and understanding of patterns (mathematics) to make pronouncements, and if you look at the way the {Allah,} are related to one another, you will use a luni-solar calendar as it takes into account of all the parameters that Allah describes in the Quran...
You can look at it as an opinion, or you can be honest and dig deep in your heart and find out who are you doing it for (clinging to a pure Moon calendar), just ask Allah, without anticipating your correct answer...
it might take some time, after all it took me seven to ten years to get out of the sunni hell hole...If you want to provide a constructive argument, please answer to this
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the yearBecause we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
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If you want to provide a constructive argument, please answer to this
The Prophet and his followers understood the following Quranic rules about their Calender
It shall be 12 Months per year
We shall use the Sun and the Moon to calculate the length of the yearBecause we cannot use the sun to calculate the month because there is no obvious Markers to mark the Month Boundary (Beginning and End), nor we can not use the sun to calculate the day boundary (Beginning and End) because the Moon is not available every day. Thus, no brainier, we use the Moon to calculate the month because of its obvious cycle allows us to do so (beginning of the Month and End), and the sun to calculate the day because of its obvious cycle allow us to do so.
We shall use the Moon to calculate the Month and the sun to calculate the day.
Prohphet(pbuh) understood this and had correct system. God would ensure that he understood correctly, if he did not , HE guided him, The system got corrupted gradually after his death, but we have the system preserved in the great reading , we have to take clues and info from Quran and then use our God given ability of logic and reason, to restore what God originally intended it to be. We must not let our brain logic be over ridden by corrupted baggage that we have been carrying along since our childhood.
We should use sun for day, and years, and as these are two units far apart, we need to split the bigger unit (year) into smaller units taking help of the moon. As the moon has different geometry/orbit , not in sync with sun, so it cannot split the bigger unit into accurate exact units. So God does not make this unit as a month because of inherent inaccuracy , but tell us to take help from a marker to split it into approximate units for keeping count. Also, the different shapes give us some idea where we are in that period (man made month)
Month is not quranic, nor is week hour, minute or second.
Main question is what to use for a year? and it looks like you are getting on track. Year is solar, because the life on earth is being governed by sun, not by moon. Moon is just a help to split the bigger unit into intermediate count.
siki
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Prohphet(pbuh) understood this and had correct system. God would ensure that he understood correctly, if he did not , HE guided him, The system got corrupted gradually after his death, but we have the system preserved in the great reading , we have to take clues and info from Quran and then use our God given ability of logic and reason, to restore what God originally intended it to be. We must not let our brain logic be over ridden by corrupted baggage that we have been carrying along since our childhood.
We should use sun for day, and years, and as these are two units far apart, we need to split the bigger unit (year) into smaller units taking help of the moon. As the moon has different geometry/orbit , not in sync with sun, so it cannot split the bigger unit into accurate exact units. So God does not make this unit as a month because of inherent inaccuracy , but tell us to take help from a marker to split it into approximate units for keeping count. Also, the different shapes give us some idea where we are in that period (man made month)
Month is not quranic, nor is week hour, minute or second.
Main question is what to use for a year? and it looks like you are getting on track. Year is solar, because the life on earth is being governed by sun, not by moon. Moon is just a help to split the bigger unit into intermediate count.
siki
Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in the Humans' logic, which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.Peace,
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Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in Humans Brain which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.Peace,
Peace
exactly, you need to have something to split first, the thing to split is the solar year...
think, use this amazing one kilo computer between the ears that the Almighty Allah has given you.
and the Moon helps you do the splitting (counting / segmenting) exactly like cutting a dessert pie... -
Let no one underestimate The Lord; There is no inaccuracy in our Lord's created System, rather, it is in Humans Brain which when failing to grasp the wisdom of the system, they call it inherent Inaccuracy.
The Bigger, the year, should be split into 12 Moon Cycles, as per our Lord Instruction.Peace,
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
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Salam siki,
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Well written, but it's still too complicated for them to get it. Try to make it more simple. O0
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And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
do you mean that the thirteenth Moon is the inherent Inaccuracy? thus, we should ignore it...Thus what would you call this Moon, would you call it "God's System Inherent Inaccuracy"? or to be more polite, GSII Moon?
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
Show me where in the Quran that God says the Year Should be calculated by using the Gorginian Calender or any other similar Calender?
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Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
You need a WELL-ESTABLISHED proof from Quran, about the above assumption, before proceeding with your argument.
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Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
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Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. peace
O.k. now, peace all,
jedi The Lord said
" For like 1400 yrs you have gone without eating during the 9th month. But did you do it for Me? And when you eat, isnt it for your own enjoyment? My message today is the same one I commanded the earlier prophets to tell Juruslim and its villiges when they were prosperous. As well as the others, when they were filled with people. So, once again,I, the Lord All-Powerful, tell you " See that justice is done, be kind and merciful to one another, and stop making plans to hurt each other."
When you worship Me by going without eating, it should become a time of celebration.
peace
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Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
Do you really believe that Allah wants us to divide or separate Deen from our daily life?
this is what most of the modern people say, this is why there is not much morals left in the world, apply God's law in the kannisat (church),
and man's laws outside are separate.
I guess this is how it all started, with the help of the son of Abu Sufyan, Muawyah who sure wanted to get back the rich idolatrous Quraish centre stage.
Allah in the Mosque, Rulers in the Land...
I also do not dispute that the Moon purpose is to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan and four restricted months, but you cannot isolate it from how it is used, without the Sun radiance, the Moon is useless, it is the Sun's radiance that gives the crescents which we then use to count the portions of solar year that elapse. Allah has told us to fix that as twelve portions, twelve segments, it is simple mathematics, Allah is aware that people of that time had some knowledge of mathematics.
The reason you cannot use a pure lunar system is because it is a relative system that lacks information, it cannot tell you when you are, you need a point of reference, and a rule of concordance or conversion with the absolute co-ordinate which is the solar one.
Otherwise why does Allah painstakingly talks about the orbiting of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon and their place in His creation?
You cannot separate the link between the three.Salam
Noble
PS Quran never encourage muslims to go to war only when necessary in self defense btw...ponder this lunar or luni-solar?
1060 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1061 This should be cherished by Quraysh.
1062 The way they cherish the journey of the winter and summer.
1063 So let them serve the Lord of this Dwelling.
1064 The One who fed them from hunger, and protected them from fear.The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
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The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Can you only imagine people gathering for feast in the winter ? Even Woodstock Festival takes place at summer rotfl yay
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Peace all
Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. peace
Peace Brother,
well, it is always good to hear from you...may God increase your wisdom and reward you for your correct efforts, and forgive you and keep you away from the wrong ones.Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.Peace,
I believe so; however, I do not fully understand the wisdom of our Lord about this, due to my limited logic (I'm a Human), that only can increase by God's will...all I can say for now, I HEAR and I OBEY.
Peace -
Peace belH
but there is nothing solid in the Quran to validate a pure lunar calendar, it is only based on hadith and past pagan practices of arab tribes, you also need a start date as a reference to keep the seasons in check, otherwise it will be floating, and a conversion factor to go from lunar to solar. - are you comfortable with this? because I am not.
The solar calendar on its own keeps track of the seasons without anything else.
Because a calendar's prime objective as the Quran states is counting, so the counting has to be related to real and useful events, and the seasons are important events for life on the planet-
the crescent Moons come second. this is not even logic, this is mathematics, geometry and numbers ratio counting.
Let me give you an example though of the fallacy in logic, we think we are uniting the Ummah by using a pure lunar calendar, but let us take two geo points Paris and Sydney.
1st when it is day in Paris, it is night in Sydney - so where is the unity?
2nd the lunar reference point taken to start calendar in Sydney is different from the one taken to start calendar
in Paris (or Jerusalem) - this is where the flaw in logic is, they do not have the same pure lunar calendars to start with because
a pure lunar calendar does not exist, and needs a time reference point to start from, the one in Paris could be in the Autumn, and the one in Sydney would be in the Spring...
3rd So in fact there is not one lunar calendar but many depending where you are in the world, so it is not accurate, it depends on your geographical position on the planet, and so cannot be relied upon for counting...A solar calendar is the best one useful for counting days and years and by the use of mathematics and number ratios portions of the year, like seasons, equinox, solstice...
using the moon, or juxtaposing the moon then comes as handy for keeping track of religious rituals...However as I said before, only an authority will implement such matters, in this forum we are only discussing...
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Peace,
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
??. for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days??
The above statement does not make sense at all. An earth bound object or a person coming from outer space will see different period depending on the characteristics of its reference frame (speed, other motion, etc.). The 29.53xxx days moon cycle is seen by an observer on the earth and NOT an earth bound observer. Please ignore what siki and Ayman is saying on this forum! They are misleading!
?And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.?
And where did the God say to ignore the 13th moon? Oh, I get it, you and your follower have another quran where you find anything you desire. On one hand you are saying to follow God on the other hand you are saying to follow you. What a convoluted logic. By the way, did you realize that you became the god when you told us to ignore the 13th moon (new law). You are really a poor magician at best since you could not even make the unwanted moon disappear for us. Your scheming is vey wicked one but easily foiled by the God fearing people.
The 13th moon problem invalidates your concept. If you only knew.
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Peace,
Salam siki,
Quote from siki on October 03, 2009, 070328 AM
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Well written, but it's still too complicated for them to get it. Try to make it more simple.
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 1712. I will give you a hint - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 1712 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 1712 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?
And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
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Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?
As for your mourning for your vanishing 13th moon, you indomitable moon lover (i am sorry to say), where in the Quran does it say that you will not be allowed to do so?
The commandment is to build up a useful viable natural cosmic calendar that takes into account of (i.e. does not violate) the physical laws of Allah and at the same time responds to the call that there are twelve months in it.
A pure lunar calendar violates seasonal laws, and is useless for counting or predicting cosmic outcomes without converting back to its centre of reference absolute co-ordinates, and its starting point, which was Jerusalem (or Madina)...
wake up dude
welcomePeace,
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 1712. I will give you a hint - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 1712 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 1712 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
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Peace Ayman and all,
Just because Muhammad migrated in the moon/month named rabi alawaal ( or adhar using lunar calender), dont mean rabi alwaal or adhar has to be called moon number 1, because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st, which, the first moon is named kaanuun ath-thaaniyy or MuHarram using Islamic calender. The months would be arbitary if rabi alawaal (or adhar) was made to be month number 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
The months on the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months correlate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The order of Islamic months are fairly well known. The Islamic calender is based on the start of the prophets pilgramage to madina in 622AD. The months of the Lunar calender ,in order are- kaanuun ath-thaaniyy 7. tammuz
- shubbaat 8. 'aab
3.adhaar 9. 'ayluul
4.naysaan 10.tishriin al-'awwal
5.'ayyar 11. tishriin ath-thaaniyy - Huzayran 12. kaanuun al'awwal
The lunar calender is based on the lunar cycle. Month 'ayluul on the lunar calender in month ramadan on the islamic calender. In order to start a new calender or era based on the same lunar cycle, one had to change the names of the moons (or months). Thus, the 9th moon 'ayluul was named Ramadan,ect...all to distinguish the two calenders using the same moon. The Lunar calender exsisted before the Islamic one. The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months relate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The moons phases (or numbers) are what makes rabi awal distinct from Muharam. Moon/month number ones names are kaanuun ath-thaaniyy and Muhaaram. And adhar and rabiix al awwal are exclusive names of moon number 3. The 9th moon/month 'ayluul (or ramadan) is the hottest moon/month, and the Quran was sent down in that month.
For all we know. peace
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Peace,
Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?Both you and Ayman need basic education in astronomy. Otherwise why would you write an ignorant thing like solar year is exactly 365.25 days? That is a rounded number that is used to explain elementary school children the concept of leap year that occurs every 4 year. Therefore, 365.25 is NOT AN EXACT NUMBER. Get it. See below quote for your mistake. We already know how nights and days are caused.
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
The damage is yours not mine. Like Ayman, you did not comprehend the matter in my statement. The nights and days are NOT connected to the earth?s orbit around the sun. We would still get nights and days even if the earth did not go around the sun. Therefore, you cannot connect 1712 to solar calendar. Hence, you cannot say that the God is ordering us to use the solar calendar for our timing system.