Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
You need a WELL-ESTABLISHED proof from Quran, about the above assumption, before proceeding with your argument.
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Peace belH
it is ok, I am not a patient man, but here goes, i will ask you this question"imagine you only have a pure lunar calendar, how if the need arises would you point to a month that is contained in one season, like winter or autumn, spring or summer?"
take your time...
also surely the Quran does talk about the seasons, so you cannot say it is not Quranic...
Salam
Noble
The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
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Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. peace
O.k. now, peace all,
jedi The Lord said
" For like 1400 yrs you have gone without eating during the 9th month. But did you do it for Me? And when you eat, isnt it for your own enjoyment? My message today is the same one I commanded the earlier prophets to tell Juruslim and its villiges when they were prosperous. As well as the others, when they were filled with people. So, once again,I, the Lord All-Powerful, tell you " See that justice is done, be kind and merciful to one another, and stop making plans to hurt each other."
When you worship Me by going without eating, it should become a time of celebration.
peace
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Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
Do you really believe that Allah wants us to divide or separate Deen from our daily life?
this is what most of the modern people say, this is why there is not much morals left in the world, apply God's law in the kannisat (church),
and man's laws outside are separate.
I guess this is how it all started, with the help of the son of Abu Sufyan, Muawyah who sure wanted to get back the rich idolatrous Quraish centre stage.
Allah in the Mosque, Rulers in the Land...
I also do not dispute that the Moon purpose is to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan and four restricted months, but you cannot isolate it from how it is used, without the Sun radiance, the Moon is useless, it is the Sun's radiance that gives the crescents which we then use to count the portions of solar year that elapse. Allah has told us to fix that as twelve portions, twelve segments, it is simple mathematics, Allah is aware that people of that time had some knowledge of mathematics.
The reason you cannot use a pure lunar system is because it is a relative system that lacks information, it cannot tell you when you are, you need a point of reference, and a rule of concordance or conversion with the absolute co-ordinate which is the solar one.
Otherwise why does Allah painstakingly talks about the orbiting of the Sun, the Earth, and the Moon and their place in His creation?
You cannot separate the link between the three.Salam
Noble
PS Quran never encourage muslims to go to war only when necessary in self defense btw...ponder this lunar or luni-solar?
1060 In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
1061 This should be cherished by Quraysh.
1062 The way they cherish the journey of the winter and summer.
1063 So let them serve the Lord of this Dwelling.
1064 The One who fed them from hunger, and protected them from fear.The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Now, are you going to argue about Ramadan = Scorching Heat? ...Please do not.
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The Moon Calender purposes are to identify the timing of Hajj, Ramadan, and the Four restricted Months; timings which seasons (summer, fall, winter, spring) are not applicable. There are no mentioning in Quran to perform hajj, or to Fast ramadan, or to not Go to War in specific seasons.
Can you only imagine people gathering for feast in the winter ? Even Woodstock Festival takes place at summer rotfl yay
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Peace all
Well peace brother belh, how you been? Long time no hear. Im just speaking. peace
Peace Brother,
well, it is always good to hear from you...may God increase your wisdom and reward you for your correct efforts, and forgive you and keep you away from the wrong ones.Peace belH
The implications of what you are saying are that you want a lunar calendar for religious rites, and another calendar for seasonal functional affairs.Peace,
I believe so; however, I do not fully understand the wisdom of our Lord about this, due to my limited logic (I'm a Human), that only can increase by God's will...all I can say for now, I HEAR and I OBEY.
Peace -
Peace belH
but there is nothing solid in the Quran to validate a pure lunar calendar, it is only based on hadith and past pagan practices of arab tribes, you also need a start date as a reference to keep the seasons in check, otherwise it will be floating, and a conversion factor to go from lunar to solar. - are you comfortable with this? because I am not.
The solar calendar on its own keeps track of the seasons without anything else.
Because a calendar's prime objective as the Quran states is counting, so the counting has to be related to real and useful events, and the seasons are important events for life on the planet-
the crescent Moons come second. this is not even logic, this is mathematics, geometry and numbers ratio counting.
Let me give you an example though of the fallacy in logic, we think we are uniting the Ummah by using a pure lunar calendar, but let us take two geo points Paris and Sydney.
1st when it is day in Paris, it is night in Sydney - so where is the unity?
2nd the lunar reference point taken to start calendar in Sydney is different from the one taken to start calendar
in Paris (or Jerusalem) - this is where the flaw in logic is, they do not have the same pure lunar calendars to start with because
a pure lunar calendar does not exist, and needs a time reference point to start from, the one in Paris could be in the Autumn, and the one in Sydney would be in the Spring...
3rd So in fact there is not one lunar calendar but many depending where you are in the world, so it is not accurate, it depends on your geographical position on the planet, and so cannot be relied upon for counting...A solar calendar is the best one useful for counting days and years and by the use of mathematics and number ratios portions of the year, like seasons, equinox, solstice...
using the moon, or juxtaposing the moon then comes as handy for keeping track of religious rituals...However as I said before, only an authority will implement such matters, in this forum we are only discussing...
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Peace,
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.
And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
??. for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days??
The above statement does not make sense at all. An earth bound object or a person coming from outer space will see different period depending on the characteristics of its reference frame (speed, other motion, etc.). The 29.53xxx days moon cycle is seen by an observer on the earth and NOT an earth bound observer. Please ignore what siki and Ayman is saying on this forum! They are misleading!
?And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.?
And where did the God say to ignore the 13th moon? Oh, I get it, you and your follower have another quran where you find anything you desire. On one hand you are saying to follow God on the other hand you are saying to follow you. What a convoluted logic. By the way, did you realize that you became the god when you told us to ignore the 13th moon (new law). You are really a poor magician at best since you could not even make the unwanted moon disappear for us. Your scheming is vey wicked one but easily foiled by the God fearing people.
The 13th moon problem invalidates your concept. If you only knew.
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Peace,
Salam siki,
Quote from siki on October 03, 2009, 070328 AM
As the moon cycle is 29,53 days, hence it would visibly return to the same shape for an earth bound observer either in 29 or sometimes in 30 days, hence a month can not be a fixed period. I am not talking about inaccuracy in God's system.And yes , you should count 12 moons in a year as per our God's instruction , and ignore the thirteenth when it arrives every 3rd year.
Remember , God does not say that 12 moon cycles make it a year, but it is worded , "count only 12 in a Year" He is not making a year out of 12 moon cycles , but telling you to count 12 moons only in a year cycle which you know. And what is a year? orbit of earth around sun , is a year.
siki
Well written, but it's still too complicated for them to get it. Try to make it more simple.
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 1712. I will give you a hint - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 1712 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 1712 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?
And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
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Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?
As for your mourning for your vanishing 13th moon, you indomitable moon lover (i am sorry to say), where in the Quran does it say that you will not be allowed to do so?
The commandment is to build up a useful viable natural cosmic calendar that takes into account of (i.e. does not violate) the physical laws of Allah and at the same time responds to the call that there are twelve months in it.
A pure lunar calendar violates seasonal laws, and is useless for counting or predicting cosmic outcomes without converting back to its centre of reference absolute co-ordinates, and its starting point, which was Jerusalem (or Madina)...
wake up dude
welcomePeace,
Please don't forget to tell us how you manage to vanish the 13th moon. Also, do tell us how you connect the days to "orbit of earth around sun" and verse 1712. I will give you a hint - night and day is not caused by earth's orbit around the sun; 1712 talks about night and day among other things. Therefore, how do you connect day to earth's orbit aroundthe sun? Where in 1712 YOU FIND EARTH GOING AROUND THE SUN?And some one calls this ill written statement a well written statement. No wonder why the muslims are getting bad name.
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Peace Ayman and all,
Just because Muhammad migrated in the moon/month named rabi alawaal ( or adhar using lunar calender), dont mean rabi alwaal or adhar has to be called moon number 1, because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st, which, the first moon is named kaanuun ath-thaaniyy or MuHarram using Islamic calender. The months would be arbitary if rabi alawaal (or adhar) was made to be month number 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
The months on the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months correlate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The order of Islamic months are fairly well known. The Islamic calender is based on the start of the prophets pilgramage to madina in 622AD. The months of the Lunar calender ,in order are- kaanuun ath-thaaniyy 7. tammuz
- shubbaat 8. 'aab
3.adhaar 9. 'ayluul
4.naysaan 10.tishriin al-'awwal
5.'ayyar 11. tishriin ath-thaaniyy - Huzayran 12. kaanuun al'awwal
The lunar calender is based on the lunar cycle. Month 'ayluul on the lunar calender in month ramadan on the islamic calender. In order to start a new calender or era based on the same lunar cycle, one had to change the names of the moons (or months). Thus, the 9th moon 'ayluul was named Ramadan,ect...all to distinguish the two calenders using the same moon. The Lunar calender exsisted before the Islamic one. The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months relate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The moons phases (or numbers) are what makes rabi awal distinct from Muharam. Moon/month number ones names are kaanuun ath-thaaniyy and Muhaaram. And adhar and rabiix al awwal are exclusive names of moon number 3. The 9th moon/month 'ayluul (or ramadan) is the hottest moon/month, and the Quran was sent down in that month.
For all we know. peace
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Peace,
Peace
Well it eluded me to write this that the day and night depend on the rotation of the earth around its axis, i do not remember if i wrote it in a previous post, but of course that again shows that both the earth and sun relative motion are needed in the interaction for the build-up of a useful calendar, so what is your damage guest?Both you and Ayman need basic education in astronomy. Otherwise why would you write an ignorant thing like solar year is exactly 365.25 days? That is a rounded number that is used to explain elementary school children the concept of leap year that occurs every 4 year. Therefore, 365.25 is NOT AN EXACT NUMBER. Get it. See below quote for your mistake. We already know how nights and days are caused.
So how about the interpretation of Joseph's that he made of the king's dream, did he make it using a lunar calendar (religious) so that each year is about 354 days, or the solar calendar in which each year is exactly 365.25 days?
The damage is yours not mine. Like Ayman, you did not comprehend the matter in my statement. The nights and days are NOT connected to the earth?s orbit around the sun. We would still get nights and days even if the earth did not go around the sun. Therefore, you cannot connect 1712 to solar calendar. Hence, you cannot say that the God is ordering us to use the solar calendar for our timing system.
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Peace,
and what physical phenomenon will hold the Earth while it is rotating on its axis?
so Mr guest you seem to be lacking even more basic levels of physics...
.25 do not bother me, very manageable, the Gregorian calendar works beautifully...
nowhere in the Quran it also says that we must stick to a rigid calendar, so long as we do not violate foundational principles
of monotheism, and we obey the commandment, which is in fact the hint that the number of months in a year is 12.
Saying that Allah means a lunar year is idiotic to say the least!
and yes sir, saying that you and your follower belH are idiots do not violate foundational principles of monotheism, so i say it with
confidence and a clear conscience, you are both idiots in your narrow mindedness, and you are the ones giving Islam a bad name...
this is coming from me who advised you already that i am doubly in the blood line of our Prophet on my father and mother side, as you are sunni which i clearly gather, you certainly treat blood lines with contempt, but maybe just maybe, the Prophet prayed good for his descendants, and i in turn pray that Allah makes matters manifest between us and show us the Truth not as we keep on arguing, but as it will benefit us all... and so Allah help us...guest, belH, everybody, let us remember Allah sees us...
to lighten up despite all, smile, you might be on camera
Peace,
Both you and Ayman need basic education in astronomy. Otherwise why would you write an ignorant thing like solar year is exactly 365.25 days? That is a rounded number that is used to explain elementary school children the concept of leap year that occurs every 4 year. Therefore, 365.25 is NOT AN EXACT NUMBER. Get it. See below quote for your mistake. We already know how nights and days are caused.
The damage is yours not mine. Like Ayman, you did not comprehend the matter in my statement. The nights and days are NOT connected to the earth?s orbit around the sun. We would still get nights and days even if the earth did not go around the sun. Therefore, you cannot connect 1712 to solar calendar. Hence, you cannot say that the God is ordering us to use the solar calendar for our timing system.
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Peace,
Saying that Allah means a lunar year is idiotic to say the least!
and yes sir, saying that you and your follower belH are idiots do not violate foundational principles of monotheism, so i say it with
confidence and a clear conscience, you are both idiots in your narrow mindedness, and you are the ones giving Islam a bad name...The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (2563). Peace.
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peace be to you again and guidance and protection from ignorance and saying about God what we do not know...
how do we know if the Prophet is granted to see this "ummah" now,
would he not like Daoud, Sulaiman, and Issa for bani Israeel curse us as a whole?Peace,
The worshipers of the Most Gracious are those who tread the earth gently, and when the ignorant speak to them, they only utter peace (2563). Peace.this thread is going where it should go, that we have not learnt yet to live as a community, and are busy squabbling and fighting among ourselves (and that is nothing compared to other religious sects), instead of building and flourishing, and fulfilling Allah's covenant, "...ansuruni, ansurukum, washkuruli, walatakfurun...", surely we won't hit that like the lottery,
it needs finding out what went wrong and correcting it,
surely it has not been corrected because Allah is not answering...
surely He asks us to use our God given abilities, not be idiots and drones...
ring a bell? -
jedi
I agree that the start of ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon. 2185 and 2189 is enuff to prove that this is correct. Ramadan depends on the sighting of the moon and not a myriad of other factors other than thin sighting. Even if shar means "moon", there is still no mention of the sun ( or solar) in 2185. I agree that 2185 contains the complete info that we need to know when to start the abstinace, and the sun or solar system has nothin to do with it to my knowleadge. Especially when you translate "shara" as full moon. And 105, 1712, 971, the other similar verses you try to throw up, all that he say she say and these differnt storys has nothing to do with us fasting according to 2185. 2185,2189, and 105 leave no doubt that the year is lunar. New moons or cresent moons, 2189 still mentions the moon as timing device, and not the sun as a timing device. And in 7142 and 892 is mention of nights and not days. And you caint say that " Ma3dootat" is a fixed 10 days ( without explicit knowleadge) and 2184 does not say for "10 days." I agree that " ma3doodat" as " a few" can be any number from 3-10, but you caint say it is 10 days for certain ( without knowleadge). Espeacially when The God didnt say so or say "fast 10 days." And 936 also justifies a lunar year because the moon is mentioned and not the sun. Just because Muhammad migrated in the moon/month named rabi alawaal ( or adhar using lunar calender), dont mean rabi alwaal or adhar has to be called moon number 1, because then the late umar would be calling the 3rd moon the 1st, which, the first moon is named kaanuun ath-thaaniyy or MuHarram using Islamic calender. The months would be arbitary if rabi alawaal (or adhar) was made to be month number 1 because the phases of the moon would not be measured right.
105 clearly says God measured the phases of the moon so that you might know the number of years and the calculation; while the sun is only mentioned as a shinning brightness and the moon was made to reflect it. Ramadan is to be observed by those who witness it. Also I think even seeing a 1-2 day old cresent is still good enuff to call ramadan if one is certain that the cresent is 1-2 days old. And shahr can mean month or moon, which is bout the same to me. Each full/new moon is considered a new month. 2185 is evidence that there is a month named ramadan. The year is lunar - to my understanding. And you are following all the similar verses seeking to cause confusion and frustrate 2184-185 and 189. From 105, it can be seen that the learning of the number of years and calculation are helped by the moon to my understanding. And to say the complete count is 10 fixed days in 2185 is a lie against Allah - the Lord. We calculate from new moon to the next. There are 12 full moons ( or months) with God a year. I agree God tells us to count 12 months ( or moons) in a year, and four are restricted. And the weeks have always been 7 day weeks every since the Genisis, so all that 10,20 day weeks used by some is irrelevant or might I say wrong,wrong,wrong and off topic.As of right now your false understanding is creating a contradiction. 2185 can be translated as " designated days, certain days, specific days,ect..." And to say a "few" days in 2184 can be misleading. You are creating another problem by implying that the god is giving supeflous usless information in 2185. All we can say is that a Ramadan may last for 29 or 30 days ( as usual) and the count is to be started when the moon is first visible until the next month. The months on the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months correlate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The order of Islamic months are fairly well known. The Islamic calender is based on the start of the prophets pilgramage to madina in 622AD. The months of the Lunar calender ,in order are
- kaanuun ath-thaaniyy 7. tammuz
- shubbaat 8. 'aab
3.adhaar 9. 'ayluul
4.naysaan 10.tishriin al-'awwal
5.'ayyar 11. tishriin ath-thaaniyy - Huzayran 12. kaanuun al'awwal
The lunar calender is based on the lunar cycle. Month 'ayluul on the lunar calender in month ramadan on the islamic calender. In order to start a new calender or era based on the same lunar cycle, one had to change the names of the moons (or months). Thus, the 9th moon 'ayluul was named Ramadan,ect...all to distinguish the two calenders using the same moon. The Lunar calender exsisted before the Islamic one. The months of the Islamic calender start when the moon is first visible, so the months relate directly to months on the Lunar calender. The moons phases (or numbers) are what makes rabi awal distinct from Muharam. Moon/month number ones names are kaanuun ath-thaaniyy and Muhaaram. And adhar and rabiix al awwal are exclusive names of moon number 3. The 9th moon/month 'ayluul (or ramadan) is the hottest moon/month, and the Quran was sent down in that month. The Lord said ? My message today is the same one I commanded the earlier prophets to tell Juruslim and its villiges when they were prosperous. As well as the others, when they were filled with people.
So, once again,I, the Lord All-Powerful, tell you " See that justice is done, be kind and merciful to one another, and stop making plans to hurt each other." O you who believe, you are ordered to fast as those before you, it could be that you are fearful and obedient. A designated term; so whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number at other times; and as for those who cannot do without, then they may redeem by feeding any of the poorest of the poor, and whoever gives alms voluntarily, then it is best for him, and it is best that you fast, if you are able. The Quran was sent down in the month of Rahmadan, to guide the people and to clarify the guidance and the Difference between Right and Wronge. So one should fast the month, whoever of you witnesses it. And whoever from among you is ill or traveling; then complete the number on other days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the term, and glorify God for what He has guided you, that you may be thankful.
When you worship Me by going without eating, it should become a time of celebration. Said the Lord.
jedi End of disccusion peace
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Peace Rami,
Guys, guys, this thread is going nowhere!
You know why?
Because the Quran doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state when exactly Ramadan is.I agree. The great reading doesn't specify a calendar and doesn't state exactly when a month that has the meaningless name of Ramadan is. Human calendars are ultimately dependent on when the era was made to start, which month it started with, the order of the months and the meaningless names of the months. This is the same as for the week. When religious holy days occur is also 100% arbitrary and manmade. For example, when Friday, Saturday and Sunday occur depends on when the 7 day week was adopted, which day it started with and the arbitrary order and assigned labels of the days. The great reading doesn't specify any of the above either for months or for weeks. So yes, it certainly doesn't specify a calendar. However, what is abundantly clear is that it specifies and keeps telling us to pay attention to clear cosmic phenomena for timing. This is why based on this correct understanding we are now and at any time in the future able to know with certainty when to fast no matter what happened or did not happen in the past. Those who are arguing for the sectarian manmade calendar cannot get this point and cannot experience this.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman