Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
-
Based on your argument, Stoning to Death should be the appropriate punishment for married adulterer, in which I disagree...It is not up to us to adjust the well-established-punishment unless God permits us.
Our Choice is to say We Hear, and We Obey.What nonsense! Death is the punishment for ADULTERY?! This is equivalency to you? Wow, I can't believe what im reading these days.
I will obey Allah and the messenger sure, not a bunch of priests who claim to own islam and ply us with false grandfather tales.
-
Why does God say do not let pity/compassion from carrying out lashes as a punishment but remains silent on cutting off a hand, when most regard this as worse?
Let's weigh and consider.
Superb reasoning, Wakas. Will use it in the future (without crediting you, lol)
-
Thank you for making the case why you are repeatedly asking people to trash their brains when discussing religious issues with you. No person with brains will believe the stupid story you have quoted from Abu Dawud, since it contradicts the Quran, the book brought by the apostle, and it contradicts reality and any sense of justice and compassion. Besides, what is wrong with the apostle of the big liar Abu Dawud? Each time he says "kill him" and each time he changes his mind to prune the poor guy's limbs.
You and your source Abu Dawud are the worst enemies of the prophet Muhammad. You are described by the following verse 2542-43 and 10100!
2543 Have you seen the one who has taken his ego as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?
2544 Or do you think that most of them hear or understand (AQL)? They are just like cattle. No, they are worse off.
10100 It is not for a person to acknowledge except by God's leave. He casts the affliction upon those who do not reason (AQL).
no matter if you like it or not but that is already well established !
Abu Dawud
Book 38, Number 4396Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said Kill him. The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time and he said Kill him. The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said Kill him.
The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.)
He was brought a fourth time and he said Kill him.
The people said He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah!
So he said Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off.
He was brought a fifth time and he said Kill him.
So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a well and threw stones over him.
-
You and your source Abu Dawud are the worst enemies of the prophet Muhammad.
what about those who remove two verses of quran? how we are different from each other? ???
-
Please quote Rashad Khalifa's statement on this. I want to see exactly where he said the words, "The Qur'aan is a liar..." or "I reject the Qur'aan, and it is false..." Do you have any proof of this claim, or are you speaking unverifiable nonsense?
The fact that he rejects two verses is all we need to know.
-
Good, lets stick to that. I underlined your statement above. Kindly provide evidence for this.
It's not a hard concept to grasp. According to the sunna, all the prophets were INFALLIBLE, and the Qur'aan is the INFALLIBLE word of Allah. Therefore, if the sunna is the infallible way of Muhammad, the hadiyths are the infallible words of Muhammad and his companions, and the Qur'aan is the infallible word of Allah, then obviously the Qur'aan and sunna together are infallible...
http//www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htmAccording to the hadiyths
Imaam Maalik (ra) said, "The saying of everyone may be taken or rejected except for the companion of this grave" and he pointed to the grave of the Prophet (saw). {This excellent saying,overflowing with great wisdom,was said by the learned man of this Ummah, Abdullaah ibn Abbas (ra) as quoted by Taqiyyuddeen as-Subkee in his Fatawaa(1/14 being amazed by its beauty. It was taken from Ibn Abbaas (rta) by Mujaahid, as occurs in Jaami Bayaan ul-ilm wa Fadlihee (1/91) and al-Ihkaam fee Usool il-Ahkaam (1/145). Maalik took it from Mujaahid and it is ascribed to Maalik and became well known from him. It was taken from them by Imaam Ahmad (ra) Abu Daawood says in Masaa-il-ul-Imaam Ahmad (p.276) "I heard Ahmad say There is no one except that his opinion may be taken or left,except fpr the prophet(saw)."}
Therefore, the Qur'aan, combined with the sunna and hadiyths, equals the INFALLIBLE word of Allah and the INFALLIBLE teachings of Muhammad.
-
ps - Yosemite, ask BelH, what happens if he steals another 50 billion and when his remaining hand is cut off and he has no more hands left, ask him what he will do if he steals another 50 billion. Then watch the reply. Enjoy.
Peace,
I doubt He would find any more people to trust him in their money; however, if He insists in stealing then, He would be among "those who seek corruption in the land". here is the punishments
The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533In our days, the Earth is divided between countries; thus we can not banish him from the Land by sending him to another country, rather, we can jail him instead (most smiler to banishing from the Land).
Peace
-
Peace
Which is correct
538 (The Monotheist Group) As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their
resources ? as a penalty for what they have earned ? to be made an
example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.538 (Yusuf Ali) As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands a punishment by
way of example, from God, for their crime and God is Exalted in power.538 (Progressive Muslims) The male thief, and the female thief, you shall confiscate their belongings as a punishment
for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.Peace
Hope
-
Peace,
Cut off their hands is the correct translation.
this is incorrect.
because it talks about cutting out both hands of each persons, the man and the woman...
aydyahuma and not aydyahum...
so it has to be another interpretation, unless you want to amputate the two hands of the thief in one go...i do not also agree about your interpretation of the other case with bigger sums of money, i.e. in the case of corruption
for powerful people...
i can explain in this case, in those days the rulers had a law they applied to their servants (or slaves, prisoners, etc) and one for themselves (or more exactly none on themselves), which was what Allah threatened them with, because they will not apply it to themselves (i.e. being crucified, exiled, etc), that was meant as a moral point and a warning threat...
so the interpretation for theft is cutting the hands of the thieves away from the source of their mischief, and making them repay the owner or society what they have taken. This is more productive and reasonable... -
Peace Nabster,
If you recite this to any Arabic speaker, kid or adult, he or she will understand the meaning
538
Peace belH
Our Arabic has been hadithized, sorry...
and i am a born arabic speaker...
but i knew about the amputating before reading the ayat, talk about putting the cart
before the horse,
of course we are primed to think the meaning, even before we read it,
we are given the meaning before we even read the ayat in the Quran!
it is very vicious...
oki... -
Good, thanks for quoting Malik below. I knew you would quote that because all along, you have been confusing these concepts.
Look at what you said below (I?ve underlined the emphatic parts)I didn't say anything about "Sunni opinion". I showed what Sunni doctrines state according to the hadiyths and sunna. The opinions of their scholars and imaams are accepted by some and rejected by others; but the hadiyths and sunna, combined with the Qur'aan, are considered INFALLIBLE according to Sunnis... You're telling me you didn't know something as simple as this, even though you're claiming to be the expert on all things related to Sunni Islaam?!
Now your latest quote
It's not a hard concept to grasp. According to the sunna, all the prophets were INFALLIBLE, and the Qur'aan is the INFALLIBLE word of Allah. Therefore, if the sunna is the infallible way of Muhammad, the hadiyths are the infallible words of Muhammad and his companions, and the Qur'aan is the infallible word of Allah, then obviously the Qur'aan and sunna together are infallible...
http//www.sunnah.org/aqida/infallibility_of_prophets.htmAccording to the hadiyths
Imaam Maalik (ra) said, "The saying of everyone may be taken or rejected except for the companion of this grave" and he pointed to the grave of the Prophet (saw). {This excellent saying,overflowing with great wisdom,was said by the learned man of this Ummah, Abdullaah ibn Abbas (ra) as quoted by Taqiyyuddeen as-Subkee in his Fatawaa(1/14 being amazed by its beauty. It was taken from Ibn Abbaas (rta) by Mujaahid, as occurs in Jaami Bayaan ul-ilm wa Fadlihee (1/91) and al-Ihkaam fee Usool il-Ahkaam (1/145). Maalik took it from Mujaahid and it is ascribed to Maalik and became well known from him. It was taken from them by Imaam Ahmad (ra) Abu Daawood says in Masaa-il-ul-Imaam Ahmad (p.276) "I heard Ahmad say There is no one except that his opinion may be taken or left,except fpr the prophet(saw)."}
Therefore, the Qur'aan, combined with the sunna and hadiyths, equals the INFALLIBLE word of Allah and the INFALLIBLE teachings of Muhammad.
You see the difference? Probably not so I?ll spell it out for you
- Your point was that HADITH and SUNNAH are infallible
- You quoted a saying of Malik which says THE AUTHORITY OF THE PROPHET is infallible
Sunnis do not see hadith and sunnah as infallible. That is why, to this day, there are debates surrounding hadith authenticity. Mohd Hashim Kamali (the Law chancellor of the International Islamic University) says in ?a Manual of Hadith?, ?no hadith can be said to be infallibly authentic?
Get it right, please.
-
peace hope4,
See the link referenced in this thread
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htmPeace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
-
Peace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
And that is what Taliban leader Mr. Bilal do not understand.
-
Peace Wakas
A very informative article, thank you for that. Can I just add this into the mix for those who still believe it is cutting off hand. Imagine why someone will steal, the reason could be they need to buy food for their family/provide for their family and others may do it as a chosen profession. How can anyone justify cutting another mans/womans hand who is simply trying to survive. For example, lets say he/she stole some food. Do we cut off their hand? That beats the purpose, now he has no means of providing for his family. Lot of people do desperate things when they have no other option open to them, I feel forgiving and possibly finding a solution is more fitting then a punishment that may not fit the crime. I maybe wrong but thats my thoughts. Also if people steal out of hopelessness, they cant find work etc.. should we not be questioning our governments system. What are they doing for these people? are they providing anything for them so they can earn an honest wage? The truth is people in power do not have much morals, their fat bellies are full and they require such deterants to scare the population.
Peace
Hope
Peace all,
The cases you identified above are not thieves, and therefore, the punishment is not applicable. I have proposed to Wakas that we can not arrgue about the punishment, however, we can argue about the definition of thief. However, Ego can prevent us from agreeing.
Peace belH
Our Arabic has been hadithized, sorry...
and i am a born arabic speaker...
but i knew about the amputating before reading the ayat, talk about putting the cart
before the horse,
of course we are primed to think the meaning, even before we read it,
we are given the meaning before we even read the ayat in the Quran!
it is very vicious...
oki...I'm born Arabic speaker too...No one can argue with God in the JD and say that these words
Do not Mean "Cut Off their Hands"...If you or any one chooses to argue, then Good Luck in JD; but do not forget to Collect all the dictionaries that you can find and store them with you in your grave, so you can be ready in the JD .
