Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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so if someone steals and repents tough luck they get their hand chopped off?
if someone steals because they need food, tough luck?
what happens to someone who steals on going they have 2 hands chopped off already, then what? what happens next, should you chop them bit by bit till they become pieces?
These were answered before; but if you want me to answer, I will do that tomorrow.
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You said physical things means it has to be cut, well I said the road that is physical
Lahma mafrouma is ground meat yeh but in different contexts you can say ifroum eltifaha ? chop the apple
Actually you reminded me of something at the butcher if you want chopped meat they say lahma shu2of, I?m not sure if it translate to shuqaf or if that is just slangSo you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
BTW I don't believe you?d use the words
(
) like that though I understand what you mean.
What is the ?doctrine? you disagree with? can you be specific. And if you're in disagreeance of following the Quran how they do? then how do you follow Quran and what makes it more right? serious question.
Sure I?d like to know what you think should be done to someone who steals all the time.
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So you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
Yes, they can. A brief look at Lane's will confirm this. However, this is why we simply need to bring in other ayaat and confirm the meaning. Sunni tafseer, although they claim the greatest tafseer is 'tafseer al-quran bil-quran' (explaining the quran with the quran) almost never do this. If we take the punishment for theft in light of other ayaat, there is no way we can accept its meants cut both their hands.
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Yes abdalquran i know they can. although we can look at other ayaat, it's important to look at contexts as they can also mean different things.
i've never head of sunni's claiming to do or that tafseer alquran bilquran is greater. According to all schools of thought? nice... might be a nice discussion i could have with my bro's. do you know much else about it?
anyway it wouldn't make sense to chop off their hands, it's not like we're Wolverine and can heal/build new arms. what happens if you progressively sin/steal, the punishment would be void and illogical.
Anyway it's not like these 'rulings' get arbitrated maybe if you live in Saudi or something.
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JudgeYou are guilty of theft and your hand shall be cut off dude.
DefendantOh man that sucks for me coz I didnt do it, seriously.
ExecutionerShut up! Take this! (Censored)Sometime Later
LawyerAccording to newly found evidence my client is not guilty.
JudgeHmm ... you are right. Ok then so you are not guilty dude.
DefendantThank God. But wait, how about my chopped off hand?
JudgeWell, it is too late buddy. You should have presented the evidence before you got your hand chopped off.
DefendantGod dammit ...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14406.msg129888#msg129888
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You said physical things means it has to be cut, well I said the road that is physical
Peace all,
Sarah, How can we cut the road into two pieces?
Lahma mafrouma is ground meat yeh but in different contexts you can say ifroum eltifaha ? chop the apple
Actually you reminded me of something at the butcher if you want chopped meat they say lahma shu2of, I?m not sure if it translate to shuqaf or if that is just slangIfroum eltifaha does not mean Chop the Apple; it means "squish the Apple" or "chop the Apple into tiny pieces" (like ground beef).
"shuqaf" is a slang arabic word (Lebanese word); The Arabic words would be "Lahama Makto3a".
So you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
The word has different meanings based on the context in which is used...the same as English, French, Spanish.
What is the ?doctrine? you disagree with? can you be specific. And if you're in disagreeance of following the Quran how they do? then how do you follow Quran and what makes it more right? serious question.
My disagreements are listed in my first post in this thread.
I believe, as God says in Quran, that the Quran is written in Simple Arabic Words that are Precise in Meaning and cannot be Misleading; otherwise, that would be unjust, and to be one Nation, as God ordered us, would be impossible to accomplish.Sure I?d like to know what you think should be done to someone who steals all the time.
Here is a Quote from my previous answer to a similar Question
If He insists in stealing then, He would be among "those who seek corruption in the land". here is the punishments
The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533In our days, the Earth is divided between countries; thus we can not banish him from the Land by sending him to another country, rather, we can jail him instead (most smiler to banishing from the Land).
Peace
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JudgeYou are guilty of theft and your hand shall be cut off dude.
DefendantOh man that sucks for me coz I didnt do it, seriously.
ExecutionerShut up! Take this! (Censored)Sometime Later
LawyerAccording to newly found evidence my client is not guilty.
JudgeHmm ... you are right. Ok then so you are not guilty dude.
DefendantThank God. But wait, how about my chopped off hand?
JudgeWell, it is too late buddy. You should have presented the evidence before you got your hand chopped off.
DefendantGod dammit ...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14406.msg129888#msg129888
Peace,
The above shows a Reckless judge who did not follow the rule of judging others using solid evidences that would leave "No Doubt " of his Guilt.As we all now, people whom put to Death due to being convicted in a murder crime can be proven innocents in the future...Does that Mean the Quranic punishment for murdering (sentenced Death) is not reasonable as well?
O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
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Peace belH
can you refrain kindly refrain from force feeding your interpretations, and mind reading Allah.
You are not His spokesperson, and you are not receiving any wahy. your Arabic might be better than
others in this forum, but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)... -
Peace all,
but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
Examples please.
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.So, you know that the meaning is about cutting off hands and finding a Job for the thief.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.Someone who keeps stealing after cutting off his Hands (which I doubt that he would steal again, but I was challenged to answer) is committing corruption in the Land; Thus, He should be jailed.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)...All I'm delivering is a Clear word by word translation of the Quran. Does that equal to the act of delivering misleading and twisting translation of the Quran that a 6 years arabic speaker would not buy...Is what I'm saying equal to the saying of "Blind Man or woman should not Fast", or equal to "deleting two verses from Quran", or equal to "there is no Hajj to the Restricted House".
All I'm saying is "Follow Your Lord's Clear laws that are written in His Book" . If this what you call "Satan Wahy", then what is Not Satan Wahy?
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Peace belH
you are twisting my words regarding ayat on thieves, compare it to ayat on zina structure...
for the rest ijtihad involves making research and bouncing ideas, and making mistakes, and deciding on outcomes
within a group. since Allah does not see any group who deserves tamkeen fi alardhi, it will carry on like this...just be an observer, as i am... we are living in a big fitna...
this is the only forum i found where i can discuss what i want, this is why i am here, that does not mean i agree with everything, but i am open to other possibility, which means I am not stubborn...
now about thief punishment, if you cut his both hands (male), or if you cut her both hands (female) what's the lesson? and the purpose?
because this is meaning of the ayat...
otherwise it would have said aydiahum, not aydiahuma, do you understand?can you accept that maybe the grammar of our modern arabic is a bit different from that of the time of the Prophet as a fitna?
stop playing the idiot!!!!!!!! it does not suit you at all!!!!
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this is the only forum i found where i can discuss what i want, this is why i am here, that does not mean i agree with everything, but i am open to other possibility, which means I am not stubborn...
Me too. I was never stubborn to change, when I was wrong according to Quran, as I told you and everyone before.
The verse is very clear in meaning.
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Jack, I addressed this point when raised by Wakas (please read reply 107, 110, and 111 of this thread).
Umm, you didn't address anything. 538 mentions thieves and their punishment. 1273-75 mentions thieves and their punishment.
1273-75
They said "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!" He said "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful? They said "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."
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Umm, you didn't address anything. 538 mentions thieves and their punishment. 1273-75 mentions thieves and their punishment.
1273-75
They said "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!" He said "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful? They said "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."
The Red words are Wrong translation
This is the Word By Word, without adding words1275
They Said
His Punishment
Who
Found
In
His Bags
for him
His Punishment
That is how
We Punish
the TransgressorsThe punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall be punished. It is such that we punish the transgreeors."
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peace BelH, all,
Seems you may have stumbled on something whilst attempting to correctly translate 1275 ;D
Allow me, as a non-Arabic speaker
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersJZY means recompense, not punishment, e.g. see 585
Comment?
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Peace belH
it is ok,
we are just discussing...
i will be glad you will not be an islamic judge in charge of interpretation of passing of judgments though, because your mind lack logic, is not thorough, and generally pretty messed up ;D
everything we have discussed so far is null and void without due process which includes tamkeen filardh, and shurah...
Salam
NobleMe too. I was never stubborn to change, when I was wrong according to Quran, as I told you and everyone before.
The verse is very clear in meaning.
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peace BelH, all,
Seems you may have stumbled on something whilst attempting to correctly translate 1275 ;D
Allow me, as a non-Arabic speaker
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersJZY means recompense, not punishment, e.g. see 585
Comment?
Let us not make it sound like a challenge, rather, learning debate
here is the precise meaning of the Word
to be worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward or requital, have become recognized as they deserve.It mean
A PRICE OF WHAT YOU DID-------YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVEIt can be used to mean reward (e.g., 5-85, 18-88, 20-76, 32-17) or can be used to mean punishment (e.g., 5-33, 5-38, 5-95, 9-26);
