Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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JudgeYou are guilty of theft and your hand shall be cut off dude.
DefendantOh man that sucks for me coz I didnt do it, seriously.
ExecutionerShut up! Take this! (Censored)Sometime Later
LawyerAccording to newly found evidence my client is not guilty.
JudgeHmm ... you are right. Ok then so you are not guilty dude.
DefendantThank God. But wait, how about my chopped off hand?
JudgeWell, it is too late buddy. You should have presented the evidence before you got your hand chopped off.
DefendantGod dammit ...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14406.msg129888#msg129888
Peace,
The above shows a Reckless judge who did not follow the rule of judging others using solid evidences that would leave "No Doubt " of his Guilt.As we all now, people whom put to Death due to being convicted in a murder crime can be proven innocents in the future...Does that Mean the Quranic punishment for murdering (sentenced Death) is not reasonable as well?
O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
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Peace belH
can you refrain kindly refrain from force feeding your interpretations, and mind reading Allah.
You are not His spokesperson, and you are not receiving any wahy. your Arabic might be better than
others in this forum, but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)... -
Peace all,
but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
Examples please.
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.So, you know that the meaning is about cutting off hands and finding a Job for the thief.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.Someone who keeps stealing after cutting off his Hands (which I doubt that he would steal again, but I was challenged to answer) is committing corruption in the Land; Thus, He should be jailed.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)...All I'm delivering is a Clear word by word translation of the Quran. Does that equal to the act of delivering misleading and twisting translation of the Quran that a 6 years arabic speaker would not buy...Is what I'm saying equal to the saying of "Blind Man or woman should not Fast", or equal to "deleting two verses from Quran", or equal to "there is no Hajj to the Restricted House".
All I'm saying is "Follow Your Lord's Clear laws that are written in His Book" . If this what you call "Satan Wahy", then what is Not Satan Wahy?
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Peace belH
you are twisting my words regarding ayat on thieves, compare it to ayat on zina structure...
for the rest ijtihad involves making research and bouncing ideas, and making mistakes, and deciding on outcomes
within a group. since Allah does not see any group who deserves tamkeen fi alardhi, it will carry on like this...just be an observer, as i am... we are living in a big fitna...
this is the only forum i found where i can discuss what i want, this is why i am here, that does not mean i agree with everything, but i am open to other possibility, which means I am not stubborn...
now about thief punishment, if you cut his both hands (male), or if you cut her both hands (female) what's the lesson? and the purpose?
because this is meaning of the ayat...
otherwise it would have said aydiahum, not aydiahuma, do you understand?can you accept that maybe the grammar of our modern arabic is a bit different from that of the time of the Prophet as a fitna?
stop playing the idiot!!!!!!!! it does not suit you at all!!!!
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this is the only forum i found where i can discuss what i want, this is why i am here, that does not mean i agree with everything, but i am open to other possibility, which means I am not stubborn...
Me too. I was never stubborn to change, when I was wrong according to Quran, as I told you and everyone before.
The verse is very clear in meaning.
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Jack, I addressed this point when raised by Wakas (please read reply 107, 110, and 111 of this thread).
Umm, you didn't address anything. 538 mentions thieves and their punishment. 1273-75 mentions thieves and their punishment.
1273-75
They said "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!" He said "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful? They said "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."
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Umm, you didn't address anything. 538 mentions thieves and their punishment. 1273-75 mentions thieves and their punishment.
1273-75
They said "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!" He said "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful? They said "The punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall remain as punishment. It is such that we punish the wicked."
The Red words are Wrong translation
This is the Word By Word, without adding words1275
They Said
His Punishment
Who
Found
In
His Bags
for him
His Punishment
That is how
We Punish
the TransgressorsThe punishment is that whomever it is found in his bags, then he shall be punished. It is such that we punish the transgreeors."
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peace BelH, all,
Seems you may have stumbled on something whilst attempting to correctly translate 1275 ;D
Allow me, as a non-Arabic speaker
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersJZY means recompense, not punishment, e.g. see 585
Comment?
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Peace belH
it is ok,
we are just discussing...
i will be glad you will not be an islamic judge in charge of interpretation of passing of judgments though, because your mind lack logic, is not thorough, and generally pretty messed up ;D
everything we have discussed so far is null and void without due process which includes tamkeen filardh, and shurah...
Salam
NobleMe too. I was never stubborn to change, when I was wrong according to Quran, as I told you and everyone before.
The verse is very clear in meaning.
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peace BelH, all,
Seems you may have stumbled on something whilst attempting to correctly translate 1275 ;D
Allow me, as a non-Arabic speaker
They Said
its recompense (see previous sign 1274 for usage of "jazaohu" and what it refers to)
who
found
in
his bag
then him ("fa" means so/then)
its recompense
like that
We recompense
the wrongdoersJZY means recompense, not punishment, e.g. see 585
Comment?
Let us not make it sound like a challenge, rather, learning debate
here is the precise meaning of the Word
to be worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward or requital, have become recognized as they deserve.It mean
A PRICE OF WHAT YOU DID-------YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVEIt can be used to mean reward (e.g., 5-85, 18-88, 20-76, 32-17) or can be used to mean punishment (e.g., 5-33, 5-38, 5-95, 9-26);
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Peace belH
and how about Qasas?Let us not make it sound like a challenge, rather, learning debate
here is the precise meaning of the Word
to be worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward or requital, have become recognized as they deserve.It mean
A PRICE OF WHAT YOU DID-------YOU GET WHAT YOU DESERVEIt can be used to mean reward (e.g., 5-85, 18-88, 20-76, 32-17) or can be used to mean punishment (e.g., 5-33, 5-38, 5-95, 9-26);
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peace Belh
Going to back to your first post i'll quote one part
To me, this seems like another sect that has its own laws that are not 100% from Quran; thus, they are promoting what is not 100% Pure Islam.
If you think free-minds is a sect then your system is also a sect.
Simple Free-minds has x understanding from Quran, you have Y understanding from Quran 19ers have z understanding from Quran. Difference is some sects are more extreme and use less of their reason, heart and intellect.
Also one more thing
You acknowledge the Quran.
The Quran advises to use reason
A verse in the Quran says amputate thieves hands
This goes against reason and heart
Thus......... what do you do???What's more important. Your heart, reason, intellect or you interpretation of the Quran?
On the day of judgement if a judge is asked why did you order the amputation of that thieves hand?
Does "That's what i thought that the Quran said even though it went against my heart and reason" sound acceptable?
where as on the other hand if a judge was asked "why did you not order the amputation of the thieves hand when that is what you understood of the QUran"
and the judge responds with "it went against my heart and reason" is acceptable
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After rereading my post, it appears that i am implying that you are unreasonable.
I'm sorry. That's not what i meant. What i'm trying to convey is that in the case of amputation you are sacrificing heart and reason for you understanding of the Quran.
handshake peace
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peace Belh
Going to back to your first post i'll quote one part
If you think free-minds is a sect then your system is also a sect.
Simple Free-minds has x understanding from Quran, you have Y understanding from Quran 19ers have z understanding from Quran. Difference is some sects are more extreme and use less of their reason, heart and intellect.
Peace,
You are right, I do not belong to Fee-minds.org Party (Sect).
However, there are two parties
Allah's Party
5822 You will not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day leaning towards those who oppose God and His messenger, even if they were their parents, or their children, or their siblings, or their kin. For these, He decrees faith into their hearts, and supports them with a Spirit from Him, and He admits them into estates with rivers flowing beneath them; abiding therein. God is pleased with them, and they are pleased with Him. These are the Sect of God. Most assuredly, the party of God are the winners.
5822The Evil Party
The evil is an enemy to you, so treat him as an enemy. He only invites his party to be the dwellers of Hell.
356You acknowledge the Quran.
The Quran advises to use reason
A verse in the Quran says amputate thieves hands
This goes against reason and heart
Thus......... what do you do???What's more important. Your heart, reason, intellect or you interpretation of the Quran?
On the day of judgement if a judge is asked why did you order the amputation of that thieves hand?
Does "That's what i thought that the Quran said even though it went against my heart and reason" sound acceptable?
where as on the other hand if a judge was asked "why did you not order the amputation of the thieves hand when that is what you understood of the QUran"
and the judge responds with "it went against my heart and reason" is acceptable
It is never been our choice when it comes to God's Orders...We only can Say "We Heard and We Obey"; as Abraham (PBUH) did when asked to slaughter His Own beloved Son.
After rereading my post, it appears that i am implying that you are unreasonable.
I'm sorry. That's not what i meant. What i'm trying to convey is that in the case of amputation you are sacrificing heart and reason for you understanding of the Quran.
peace you are fine.
I would never dare to question my Lord's Orders when clear and Precise...Our Lord's Wisdom is Hard to grasp with our Logic.
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