Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

abdalquran

I cannot understand how 'bima kasabaa' get ignored everytime BelH analyses the ayah. The punishment for sariqa MUST be reliant upon what the thieves EARN. How on earth can be chopping off HANDS then (unless they're in the hand-stealing business).

noble

peace belH, q_student,
drama queens again, why does it always have to turn into an emotional frenzy with us Arabs huh?
Wisdom is not easy to grasp period, but wisdom is subtle not stupid.
So think better, because this is the secret of how and where the Muslim civilization can again raise again from
its ashes.

Well, it still less harsh than 20 years in Jail...moreover, God's wisdom might be too hard for us to grasp, when thinking about cutting off hands (which I believe is too harsh to imagine), but, We only can say "We Hear and We Obey"

Moreover, now we do not practice this punishment anymore, however Humans practice it against Innocents.
Here is today's civilization that because of it you think the Quran Punishment is barbaric.

http//www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images11/iraq_us_invasion/boy_hands_amputated.jpe

I hope your empathy for Meldoff is not the same for this innocent Kid

I'm done with this subject

Peace

Quran says "I am Clear",you say that Quran says wrong it is not clear. Is this not a blame on the Quran??

Such a severe punishment cannot be left AMBIGUOUS.Provide the proof for this rubbish statement.
Regards

No it is not a blame on the Quran, let alone one on Allah, there is a very good reason why it has been written this way...
let us see if your neurones can fire up a bit, and put yourselves in the Hejaz / Madina back in the 7th century... enough hints...

Wakas

peace BelH,

I will be happy to answer your questions, but as you said, let's take things one at a time, as you haven't even answered my questions yet.

Can you provide a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary that means "punishment"?

Re your translation of "huwa" as "it".
After speaking with sister Samia, she said that "huwa" can theoretically mean "it", but she said

according to its context in 1275, and thus the meaning, "huwa" can only mean "he" referring to man, which means "who" and is used for humans.

Do you agree with the above? Yes/no?
If not, then I would prefer you to provide another example in The Quran to prove your point where in a similar/same structure "huwa" means "it" (with a preceding "he/who" particle), so we can determine what is right.

Who knew about the plot (i.e. how Joseph was going to keep his brother)?
Joseph yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's helpers yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's brother yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
sons of Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)

The above question is related to the illogical switching between plural/singular/plural by Joseph's helpers (a question which you seemingly did not understand). Once you clarify who knew (according to you), then we will apply some logic and see what happens.

#########

peace Samia,

When the women at the Aziz's house saw Yousuf, did they "cut" their hands or stopped whatever they were doing "stopped the conscious action of cutting"?

Interesting observation.

noble

Peace

Quran says "I am Clear",you say that Quran says wrong it is not clear. Is this not a blame on the Quran??

Such a severe punishment cannot be left AMBIGUOUS.Provide the proof for this rubbish statement.
Regards

Peace Q_S
If you take the ayah on theft and equate cut off as chop off, then the meaning is amputate both hands of each individual.
So if you do not, and that is the meaning, you are disobeying Allah in His book...
What the Scholars did, they found (oh how handy and fortunate) convenient hadith that explain this ayat as follows

steal first strike cut right hand
steal second strike cut left foot
steal fourth strike cut left hand
steal fifth strike cut head...
hmmm...
very imaginative isn't it, Pinochet, Stalin, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Nebuchdenazar, and other Taghuts cannot think better!
and you say to me this can come from Allah?
where in the same Quran He says the Nose with Nose, the Ear with Ear, the Eye with the Eye, and the Injuries in proportion?
So where is the logic I ask you again?
and you also can think about the hint I gave you...
and please do not play emotional interlude on me, I have had enough of it with my students when they do not write their essays ;D

belH

Peace all,
Samia, I will point to you the point that I disagree with 100%

e.g..I know you do not cook ;D

All the other points you raised make sense and should be studied further; I myself, while ago, came to a conclusion that Cutting the hands can mean to Inflect Wound on the Hand; however, it did not sink.

The other way to study this further is to go back to the Laws of Old Testament and Bible
After reading the detailed laws of theft (Exodus 22, 1-15), I believe the Amputation of Hands was not prescribed in the Old Testament (unless the translation is not accurate). The Exodus laws sometimes calls for repayment of 5 time of what was stolen.
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo22.pdf

Does that mean that God increased the Punishment in Quran, as He decreased it with Adultery?
Can "Cutting the Hands" of the Thief (which the correct translation) means something different than "the Act to physical Cut"?
If someone stole 50 billion Dollar (or even a million dollar), How can He repay?

If the Word does not mean to Physical Cut Off, What is the Correct Arabic word that Means "Physical Cut Off"?

When the women at the Aziz's house saw Yousuf, did they "cut" their hands or stopped whatever they were doing "stopped the conscious action of cutting"?

I agree; however it supports that the "Physical Cutting" is the correct meaning when translating 5-38.

All the above need to be answered before concluding about the Correct meaning of 5-38?

Now, can you translate

29-5

noble

Peace
maybe to amputate the hand we would say

.

belH

Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538

533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533

As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538

Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
Peace

belH

Peace
maybe to amputate the hand we would say

.

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

noble

Peace again
Anyway the correct translation of is "so cut" and no "so cut off" just to be very precise.
and that does not always refer to something physical neither in Arabic, in English, in French (coupe)...etc...
it could very well mean so STOP...

noble

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

because the Quran does not encourage amputation...

noble

Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538

533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533

As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538

Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
Peace

I think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...

belH

I think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...

Peace,
So you agree that
Amputating Hands and Legs is a Quranic punishment.
means "Cut Off"

Here is my logic to 5-33 and 5-38

In 5-33, God prescribed "Cutting of Hand and Leg" as punishment for the ones who seek corruptions in Land. And because God knew that thief seeks corruption in Land, thus, He adjusted his punishment to "Cutting Off Hands only and not Legs", in the verse (5-3 that follows 5-33, so we can relate to the two verses when understanding the meaning.

peace

noble

belH, peace
you make me laugh, crack up with laughter,
why do you put words in my mouth or mind,
where did I say that amputating was a Quranic punishment?
in one i said might be used as qasas in case of corruption in the land for disbelievers who inflict this kind of punishment on others, and theft on the usual scale i am thinking about is not corruption in the land by the way -
in other i said stop thief from his mischief... -
stop fooling around, playing games, mocking about, being shifty... take your pick ;D

Peace,
So you agree that
Amputating Hands and Legs is a Quranic punishment.
means "Cut Off"

Here is my logic to 5-33 and 5-38

In 5-33, God prescribed "Cutting of Hand and Leg" as punishment for the ones who seek corruptions in Land. And because God knew that thief seeks corruption in Land, thus, He adjusted his punishment to "Cutting Off Hands only and not Legs", in the verse (5-3 that follows 5-33, so we can relate to the two verses when understanding the meaning.

peace

noble

Peace
533 is a threat which is not necessarily going to be enforced, and it concerns a specific group of people the Prophet was at war with, so let us please stay in context...
538 is an injunction for the believers on the believers, so we need to look at Quran as a whole, and scrutinise what concerns the believers.
That being said, there is a wisdom why this ayat was worded this way, and close to 538, try and think why? and if you understand why, you will understand that cut cannot mean amputate.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace to all,

How did this become a discussion about "amputation" in the Qur'aan? confused

Maybe you guys should continue this debate here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598148.0

Although I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I'm noticing some great points from both sides, this thread should be reserved for ideas regarding "Free-Minds" being sectarian, like Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Peace,

Ahmad

Samia

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off
1083

Samia

Peace all,
Samia, I will point to you the point that I disagree with 100%
All the other points you raised make sense and should be studied further;

Then, this is definitely because you know how to cook without having to amputate your hand every time your mother in law drops in unexpectedly ;D

Does that mean that God increased the Punishment in Quran, as He decreased it with Adultery?
Can "Cutting the Hands" of the Thief (which the correct translation) means something different than "the Act to physical Cut"?
If someone stole 50 billion Dollar (or even a million dollar), How can He repay?

God replaced the old verses by better ones...or at least leaves it as is. Cutting off a hand/amputating it is not better, since we have a lesser punishment for adultry

Whatever verse/ sign We copy or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof (2103).

I agree; however it supports that the "Physical Cutting" is the correct meaning when translating 5-38.

We have to think of other principles an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...
so how much for a hand? $100.00; a $1000; $10,000 ...etc, all have the same recompense? nope

Now, can you translate

29-5

1- Recompense is according to kind of action (i.e good action gets a good recompense; bad one a bad recompense)
2- 5 29 I would rather you bear/ be charged with my sin and yours and thus be of hell dwellers. This is the recompense of those who harm others/ who do harm

belH

Peace to all,

How did this become a discussion about "amputation" in the Qur'aan? confused

Maybe you guys should continue this debate here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598148.0

Although I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I'm noticing some great points from both sides, this thread should be reserved for ideas regarding "Free-Minds" being sectarian, like Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace,
The matter regarding if Free.minds.org is a Sect (i.e., Religious Group with a unique doctrine) is obvious. Now we are discussing whither They are flawless Sect or they are just like Suni and shia.

For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off
1083

is a NOUN and not a Verb...moreover, changed the meaning of the , and even changed the way we pronounce .

Now, can you tell us why Free-minds.org have translated 5-33 and 5-38 differently?

Peace
533 is a threat which is not necessarily going to be enforced, and it concerns a specific group of people the Prophet was at war with, so let us please stay in context...
538 is an injunction for the believers on the believers, so we need to look at Quran as a whole, and scrutinise what concerns the believers.
That being said, there is a wisdom why this ayat was worded this way, and close to 538, try and think why? and if you understand why, you will understand that cut cannot mean amputate.

Well, I respect your Logic in this, however, it is not based on Quran...You are speculating that even 5-33 calls for cutting of the hands and legs, this was a warning and not actual punishment.
My point here is Why Free.minds.org are translating the exact "Arabic Words" Differently in 5-33 and in 5-38?...As you know, Feeding your understanding when translating is Wrong, and we should Translate Word by Word and let the Reader decide the meaning. However, this prove my Point that Free.Minds.org is a Sect.

Peace

Wakas

1275 says

is an equational sentence, with two parts
is the subject
is the predicate.
is for humans, so the subject is human, implies that the predicate should be about a human.
So, in this verse can only be human/ he.

Are you running away from my questions BelH?

Q_student

Peace Q_S
If you take the ayah on theft and equate cut off as chop off, then the meaning is amputate both hands of each individual.
So if you do not, and that is the meaning, you are disobeying Allah in His book...
What the Scholars did, they found (oh how handy and fortunate) convenient hadith that explain this ayat as follows

steal first strike cut right hand
steal second strike cut left foot
steal fourth strike cut left hand
steal fifth strike cut head...
hmmm...
very imaginative isn't it, Pinochet, Stalin, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Nebuchdenazar, and other Taghuts cannot think better!

Ma3azallah !
you can change the Aya or you can call Allah as Hitler ,Stalen etc.Actually it is Fatoor of your imagination and mind.I told you you are not Free -mind rather a complete Mind Free one.
You do not understand such a minor thing that that these are "Hudood" which means extreme puniishments.Which
1Lesser punishment can be given to any person according to severity of charge.
2After these extreme punishments ,no further punishments can be given.
Moreover look at the crime rate in Saudi Arabia as compared to the developed counteries by whome you seem to be impressed

Table 4 2002 Total Recorded Crimes, Ranked by Rate Per 100,000 Inhabitants

Rank
Nation
2002 Crime Rate

1
Iceland
21,211. 97

2
Sweden
13,836. 67

3
United Kingdom
11,014. 38

4
Finland
10,005. 65

5
Belgium
9,421. 74

6
Denmark
9,137. 07

7
Netherlands
8,813. 57

8
Canada
8,025. 37

9
Germany
7,888. 23

10
Austria
6,863. 95

11
South Africa
5,918. 73

12
Luxembourg
5,866. 22

13
Malta
4,287. 91

14
Switzerland
4,219. 90

15
Slovenia
4,159. 73

16
Hungary
4,141. 96

17
United States
4,118. 76

18
Uruguay
3,987. 21

19
Italy
3,868. 17

20
Chile
3,810. 36

21
Argentina
3,674. 70

22
Poland
3,672. 89

23
Czech Republic
3,650. 04

24
Lithuania
2,670. 68

25
Maldives
2,448. 08

26
Croatia
2,281. 14

27
Japan
2,244. 39

28
Portugal
2,145. 62

29
Latvia
2,109. 88

30
Slovakia
1,996. 15

31
Cyprus
1,702. 35

32
Mexico
1,503. 71

33
Romania
1,400. 02

34
Belarus
1,338. 71

35
Tunisia
1,332. 94

36
Costa Rica
1,021. 39

37
Morocco
957. 13

38
Republic of Moldova
853. 16

39
Kuwait
831. 19

40
Panama
716. 26

41
El Salvador
697. 55

42
Peru
604. 21

43
Oman
464. 22

44
Saudi Arabia
386. 54
45
Bolivia
353. 48

46
Azerbaijan
189. 92

47
Albania
168. 35

48
Philippines
107. 30

49
Myanmar
37. 51

50
Nepal
36. 78

Source http//www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0347.htm

Regards