Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

belH

Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538

533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533

As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538

Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
Peace

belH

Peace
maybe to amputate the hand we would say

.

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

noble

Peace again
Anyway the correct translation of is "so cut" and no "so cut off" just to be very precise.
and that does not always refer to something physical neither in Arabic, in English, in French (coupe)...etc...
it could very well mean so STOP...

noble

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

because the Quran does not encourage amputation...

noble

Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538

533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533

As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538

Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
Peace

I think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...

belH

I think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...

Peace,
So you agree that
Amputating Hands and Legs is a Quranic punishment.
means "Cut Off"

Here is my logic to 5-33 and 5-38

In 5-33, God prescribed "Cutting of Hand and Leg" as punishment for the ones who seek corruptions in Land. And because God knew that thief seeks corruption in Land, thus, He adjusted his punishment to "Cutting Off Hands only and not Legs", in the verse (5-3 that follows 5-33, so we can relate to the two verses when understanding the meaning.

peace

noble

belH, peace
you make me laugh, crack up with laughter,
why do you put words in my mouth or mind,
where did I say that amputating was a Quranic punishment?
in one i said might be used as qasas in case of corruption in the land for disbelievers who inflict this kind of punishment on others, and theft on the usual scale i am thinking about is not corruption in the land by the way -
in other i said stop thief from his mischief... -
stop fooling around, playing games, mocking about, being shifty... take your pick ;D

Peace,
So you agree that
Amputating Hands and Legs is a Quranic punishment.
means "Cut Off"

Here is my logic to 5-33 and 5-38

In 5-33, God prescribed "Cutting of Hand and Leg" as punishment for the ones who seek corruptions in Land. And because God knew that thief seeks corruption in Land, thus, He adjusted his punishment to "Cutting Off Hands only and not Legs", in the verse (5-3 that follows 5-33, so we can relate to the two verses when understanding the meaning.

peace

noble

Peace
533 is a threat which is not necessarily going to be enforced, and it concerns a specific group of people the Prophet was at war with, so let us please stay in context...
538 is an injunction for the believers on the believers, so we need to look at Quran as a whole, and scrutinise what concerns the believers.
That being said, there is a wisdom why this ayat was worded this way, and close to 538, try and think why? and if you understand why, you will understand that cut cannot mean amputate.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace to all,

How did this become a discussion about "amputation" in the Qur'aan? confused

Maybe you guys should continue this debate here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598148.0

Although I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I'm noticing some great points from both sides, this thread should be reserved for ideas regarding "Free-Minds" being sectarian, like Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Peace,

Ahmad

Samia

This is a well known arabic word that means amputation, however, it is not used in Quran.

For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off
1083

Samia

Peace all,
Samia, I will point to you the point that I disagree with 100%
All the other points you raised make sense and should be studied further;

Then, this is definitely because you know how to cook without having to amputate your hand every time your mother in law drops in unexpectedly ;D

Does that mean that God increased the Punishment in Quran, as He decreased it with Adultery?
Can "Cutting the Hands" of the Thief (which the correct translation) means something different than "the Act to physical Cut"?
If someone stole 50 billion Dollar (or even a million dollar), How can He repay?

God replaced the old verses by better ones...or at least leaves it as is. Cutting off a hand/amputating it is not better, since we have a lesser punishment for adultry

Whatever verse/ sign We copy or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than that or the like thereof (2103).

I agree; however it supports that the "Physical Cutting" is the correct meaning when translating 5-38.

We have to think of other principles an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth...
so how much for a hand? $100.00; a $1000; $10,000 ...etc, all have the same recompense? nope

Now, can you translate

29-5

1- Recompense is according to kind of action (i.e good action gets a good recompense; bad one a bad recompense)
2- 5 29 I would rather you bear/ be charged with my sin and yours and thus be of hell dwellers. This is the recompense of those who harm others/ who do harm

belH

Peace to all,

How did this become a discussion about "amputation" in the Qur'aan? confused

Maybe you guys should continue this debate here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598148.0

Although I'm really enjoying this discussion, and I'm noticing some great points from both sides, this thread should be reserved for ideas regarding "Free-Minds" being sectarian, like Sunnis and Shi'ites.

Peace,

Ahmad

Peace,
The matter regarding if Free.minds.org is a Sect (i.e., Religious Group with a unique doctrine) is obvious. Now we are discussing whither They are flawless Sect or they are just like Suni and shia.

For he who hateth thee, he will be cut off
1083

is a NOUN and not a Verb...moreover, changed the meaning of the , and even changed the way we pronounce .

Now, can you tell us why Free-minds.org have translated 5-33 and 5-38 differently?

Peace
533 is a threat which is not necessarily going to be enforced, and it concerns a specific group of people the Prophet was at war with, so let us please stay in context...
538 is an injunction for the believers on the believers, so we need to look at Quran as a whole, and scrutinise what concerns the believers.
That being said, there is a wisdom why this ayat was worded this way, and close to 538, try and think why? and if you understand why, you will understand that cut cannot mean amputate.

Well, I respect your Logic in this, however, it is not based on Quran...You are speculating that even 5-33 calls for cutting of the hands and legs, this was a warning and not actual punishment.
My point here is Why Free.minds.org are translating the exact "Arabic Words" Differently in 5-33 and in 5-38?...As you know, Feeding your understanding when translating is Wrong, and we should Translate Word by Word and let the Reader decide the meaning. However, this prove my Point that Free.Minds.org is a Sect.

Peace

Wakas

1275 says

is an equational sentence, with two parts
is the subject
is the predicate.
is for humans, so the subject is human, implies that the predicate should be about a human.
So, in this verse can only be human/ he.

Are you running away from my questions BelH?

Q_student

Peace Q_S
If you take the ayah on theft and equate cut off as chop off, then the meaning is amputate both hands of each individual.
So if you do not, and that is the meaning, you are disobeying Allah in His book...
What the Scholars did, they found (oh how handy and fortunate) convenient hadith that explain this ayat as follows

steal first strike cut right hand
steal second strike cut left foot
steal fourth strike cut left hand
steal fifth strike cut head...
hmmm...
very imaginative isn't it, Pinochet, Stalin, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Nebuchdenazar, and other Taghuts cannot think better!

Ma3azallah !
you can change the Aya or you can call Allah as Hitler ,Stalen etc.Actually it is Fatoor of your imagination and mind.I told you you are not Free -mind rather a complete Mind Free one.
You do not understand such a minor thing that that these are "Hudood" which means extreme puniishments.Which
1Lesser punishment can be given to any person according to severity of charge.
2After these extreme punishments ,no further punishments can be given.
Moreover look at the crime rate in Saudi Arabia as compared to the developed counteries by whome you seem to be impressed

Table 4 2002 Total Recorded Crimes, Ranked by Rate Per 100,000 Inhabitants

Rank
Nation
2002 Crime Rate

1
Iceland
21,211. 97

2
Sweden
13,836. 67

3
United Kingdom
11,014. 38

4
Finland
10,005. 65

5
Belgium
9,421. 74

6
Denmark
9,137. 07

7
Netherlands
8,813. 57

8
Canada
8,025. 37

9
Germany
7,888. 23

10
Austria
6,863. 95

11
South Africa
5,918. 73

12
Luxembourg
5,866. 22

13
Malta
4,287. 91

14
Switzerland
4,219. 90

15
Slovenia
4,159. 73

16
Hungary
4,141. 96

17
United States
4,118. 76

18
Uruguay
3,987. 21

19
Italy
3,868. 17

20
Chile
3,810. 36

21
Argentina
3,674. 70

22
Poland
3,672. 89

23
Czech Republic
3,650. 04

24
Lithuania
2,670. 68

25
Maldives
2,448. 08

26
Croatia
2,281. 14

27
Japan
2,244. 39

28
Portugal
2,145. 62

29
Latvia
2,109. 88

30
Slovakia
1,996. 15

31
Cyprus
1,702. 35

32
Mexico
1,503. 71

33
Romania
1,400. 02

34
Belarus
1,338. 71

35
Tunisia
1,332. 94

36
Costa Rica
1,021. 39

37
Morocco
957. 13

38
Republic of Moldova
853. 16

39
Kuwait
831. 19

40
Panama
716. 26

41
El Salvador
697. 55

42
Peru
604. 21

43
Oman
464. 22

44
Saudi Arabia
386. 54
45
Bolivia
353. 48

46
Azerbaijan
189. 92

47
Albania
168. 35

48
Philippines
107. 30

49
Myanmar
37. 51

50
Nepal
36. 78

Source http//www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0347.htm

Regards

belH

1275 says
Are you running away from my questions BelH?

Ask samia if there are two (2) Hwa in the "two red arabic words" or not? Further, ask her if one belongs to the Thief and one belongs to the Cup or not?

For your Question whither the Servants of Joseph knew about the Plot or No, and the punishment of Stealing, please read the following (http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen44.pdf)

(Gen 44-1 to 17) And he commanded the steward of his house, saying, Fill the men's sacks food, as much as they
can carry, and put every man's money in his sack's mouth.

And put my cup, the silver cup, in the sack's mouth of the youngest, and his corn money. And he did
according to the word that Joseph had spoken.

As soon as the morning was light, the men were sent away, they and their asses.

when they were gone out of the city, not far off, Joseph said unto his steward, Up,
follow after the men; and when thou dost overtake them, say unto them, Wherefore have ye rewarded evil for good?

not this in which my lord drinketh, and whereby indeed he divineth? ye have done evil in so doing.

And he overtook them, and he spake unto them these same words.

And they said unto him, Wherefore saith my lord these words? God forbid that thy servants should do according to this thing

Behold, the money, which we found in our sacks' mouths, we brought again unto thee out of the land of Canaan how then should we steal out of thy
lord's house silver or gold?

With whomsoever of thy servants it be found, both let him die, and we also will be my lord's bondmen.

And he said, Now also it according unto your words he with whom it is found shall be my servant; and ye shall be blameless.

Then they speedily took down every man his sack to the ground, and opened every man his sack.

And he searched, began at the eldest, and left at the youngest and the cup was found in Benjamin's sack.

Then they rent their clothes, and laded every man his ass, and returned to the city

And Judah and his brethren came to Joseph's house; for he yet there and they fell before him on the ground.

And Joseph said unto them, What deed this that ye have done? wot ye not that such a man as I can certainly divine?

And Judah said, What shall we say unto my lord? what shall we speak? or how shall we clear ourselves? God hath found
out the iniquity of thy servants behold, we my lord's servants, both we, and also with whom the cup is found

And he said, God forbid that I should do so the man in whose hand the cup is found, he shall be my servant; and as for you, get
you up in peace unto your father.

Q_student

Peace Brother
In this story of Hazrat Yousaf AH ,his brother was not a thief in any category. Rather whole technique was told by Allah to make join both brothers again. How this analogy is likely to be applied to Practical and well versed thieves.

The very next verse

1276

All this technique was under Allah's guidance ,and it was not a case of theft.
2Seizing of anyperson in return of the so called "theft" was not a LAW in the PRophet Yousaf's Regime Rather it was some religional law which was prevalent in Yousaf's paternal area. What was its Divine punishment at that time ,quran is silent.

Regards

belH

Peace Brother
In this story of Hazrat Yousaf AH ,his brother was not a thief in any category. Rather whole technique was told by Allah to make join both brothers again. How this analogy is likely to be applied to Practical and well versed thieves.
Regards

Peace,

I know...and that is why I told Wakas that the article he mentioned (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm) is wrong when using Yousuf's Brother punishment to cancel out the punishemnt in 5-38...Wakas did not believe me when I told him that "There is No Thief in the Story, but a Plot by Yousuf".

Anyway, I hope that Wakas and the readers, after reading Gen 1 to 17, can understand that the author of the Article is clueless about Yousuf's Story. (the punishment for thief was Death according to the Brothers, and take the thief as a Slave according to Yousuf)

Here is where the author is making a lie

Began Quote
It should be said however that the only working example given in The Quran of theft and its punishment is in the story of Joseph, in which option 3 is done by detaining the one guilty of theft, so that they can work to repay/compensate for the theft.

They said, "By God, you know we did not come to cause corruption in the land, and we are no thieves!"
He said, "What shall be the punishment, if you are not truthful?"
They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag, he shall be the penalty for it. It is such that we punish the wicked."

End Quote

The author Forgot that the Sliver Cup was Found, thus, why did the author think that the Thief, when there was no thief, would work to repay for the Cup, when there was no missing Cup?

Peace

Q_student

Peace,

I know...and that is why I told Wakas that the article he mentioned (http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/cut-off-hands-theft.htm) is wrong when using Yousuf's Brother punishment to cancel out the punishemnt in 5-38...Wakas did not believe me when I told him that "There is No Thief in the Story, but a Plot by Yousuf".

Anyway, I hope that Wakas and the readers, after reading Gen 1 to 17, can understand that the author of the Article is clueless about Yousuf's Story.

Peace

Peace Brother
Allah uses the words

It shows Allah revealed to him to adopt this technique.This is not a case of Theft At all.

Samia

is a NOUN and not a Verb...moreover, changed the meaning of the , and even changed the way we pronounce .

confused
is a verb. But when your thieves got caught red handed , and since we do not have a limit up to where the arm/hand ( ) has to be chopped off; and suppose one was sentenced by a judge who believes in chopping off the fingers, and the other unlucky thief got his hand completely chopped off, he is than the first one/ more amputated. Got the relation between the two words?
And why do you expect to find the verb in the qur'aan? Don't you get the message? God is not chopping anything from any body; and at the same time he wants to tell Belal that this word existed at the time of the revelation and with that meaning and that the people understood it, so don't be argumentative and stop chopping off hands

Samia

Ask samia if there are two (2) Hwa in the "two red arabic words" or not? Further, ask her if one belongs to the Thief and one belongs to the Cup or not?

There are two pronouns, not two Hwa. The pronoun suffixed to is not pronounced hwa but hu, and it is not a subject, and cannot be a subject. It refers to the king's cup.
The "hwa/ ", which is isolated (not suffixed to any word) is the subject and refers to (/ whoever) as in whoever the cup is found in his bag, he ( )is its recompense