Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
-
peace BelH,
It seems you are deliberately being obtuse in your responses. I asked you very simple questions. So, let me provide a summary for you and the readers
Bel "I understand Arabic very well because it is my natural language (All my studies, except for graduate, were in Arabic)" H, has provided 5 versions of 1275 so far (replies 184, 205, 221, 225, 230, and still has NOT provided one that is acceptable to the Arabic.
Ask samia if there are two (2) Hwa in the "two red arabic words" or not? Further, ask her if one belongs to the Thief and one belongs to the Cup or not?
The "hwa/ ", which is isolated (not suffixed to any word) is the subject and refers to (/ whoever) as in whoever the cup is found in his bag, he ( )is its recompense.
Well, One is for the Cub and one for the thief, as I said before
After making basic errors that even I know, as a non-Arabic speaker, he fails to clarify what his 6th version of 1275 is. Let's hope he can get it right this time, so we can actually have an accurate discussion.
Tried to justify "JZY" meant "punishment" but when cornered for evidence, declined to answer several times. Then changed his mind and now thinks it means something else.
Tried to justify from The Quran others knew about the plot of Joseph (see his replies 215, 217, 234) but when cornered and asked for explanation of his evidence (see my replies 212, 227) he provides no explanation and apparently abandons what he said previously. It is hard to tell since he fails to answer directly.
When asked by me (I put it simply as I could)
Who knew about the plot (i.e. how Joseph was going to keep his brother)?
Joseph yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's helpers yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's brother yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
sons of Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)He responds by quoting Genesis! In other words, he has no Quranic evidence whatsoever for his view. We are still waiting for a clear answer from him as to who knew about the plot. Once we know this, then we can apply some logic to see if his view holds weight.
Fails to address the illogical switch from plural to singular to plural by Joseph's helpers- but this is related to who knew about the plot according to him, so we cant conclude anything until he clarifies.
###############################################
I think I have an idea as to why the problem, and since this discussion is about a cup, I thought this wisdom might be apt
A learned man once went to a Zen teacher to inquire about Zen. As the Zen teacher explained, the learned man would frequently interrupt him with remarks like, "Oh, yes, we have that too...." and so on.
Finally the Zen teacher stopped talking and began to serve tea to the learned man. He poured the cup full, and then kept pouring until the cup overflowed.
"Enough!" the learned man once more interrupted. "No more can go into the cup!"
"Indeed" answered the Zen teacher. "Like this cup, you are full of your own opinions and speculations. If you do not first empty your cup, how can you taste my cup of tea?""I'm out peace
-
Peace all,
I would like to add one more Misleading point by Free-minds.org
Began Quote
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man?s guardianship (43), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut?a)...
End QuoteDoes that Mean Prophet Abraham (PBUH) Was a Sunnis?
As we know Prophet Abraham was married to two Women, whom were not Mothers of Orphans.
-
Peace all,
I would like to add one more Misleading point by Free-minds.org
Began Quote
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the man?s guardianship (43), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Mut?a)...
End QuoteDoes that Mean Prophet Abraham (PBUH) Was a Sunnis?
As we know Prophet Abraham was married to two Women, whom were not Mothers of Orphans.
How you know he was married to both at same time?
-
Do you believe that He Was married to Sarah; then, He divorced Sarah in order to marry Hajer; then, he divorced Hajer in order to remarry Sarah?
That's a traditional story, it's not supported in the Qur'aan. As far as we know, based on the Qur'aan, both Ishmael and Isaac were born of the same mother (i.e. Sarah).
-
Peace
We have a huge problem with uber feminists who tell you that if a man can have more than one wive, why not them have more than one husband, but tough luck for them, it is extremely rare for men to accept or admit that they are married to the same wife (or go and find a community that tolerate that). < ---- that was an acidic joke
but joke and polyandry aside...
it is probably OK that in a society where there are not enough males for one reason or another, it might be possible for controlled polygamy to be implemented. Some women even feminists argue that they would rather have their husbands with a second wive than him mocking about in hiding with a mistress...
In my reading of the Quran, polygamy per se is not forbidden, but is not actively encouraged either.
However the marrying of widows with orphans on the other hand is encouraged for those who can handle it (i.e. particularly dutifully).
If we were in a proper Muslim State, I do not think we could legislate against polygamy, however, it could work like this, for the first wife the state could help profusely from state funds, however anything extra, that will be a luxury for the claimant, meaning you can get a second wife, but there will be conditions, the first condition being that you can afford it, etc.
and God knows best...
I think that free-minds wants to address the usual audience that get exposed to its message in the west, and that is the first hurdle against communities such as muslim, mormon, etc are the issues of polygamy and underage sex, by saying that it is not the case, you at least do not put off the reader from going into the web-site, and learning better..., and there is some arguments against marrying more than one wife in these complicated societies we live in anyway, so it is not false, in my view...
as always it is a matter of context... -
That's a traditional story, it's not supported in the Qur'aan. As far as we know, based on the Qur'aan, both Ishmael and Isaac were born of the same mother (i.e. Sarah).
Peace Ahamed,
The Torah tells us that Abraham were married to two Women whom conceived one son each, Ismail (hajer 's) and Issac (Sarah's).http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen16.pdf
-
Salam,
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
-
Peace
Evidence PleaseRegards
Well, the first thief was caught on camera and the second red-handed with the stolen purse in his hands......
Then they confessed when they were confronted by eye-witnesses. The judge accepted the evidence. I hope you do, too whatever -
Why are you running away from answering my Question Why Free-minds.org are translating 5-33 different from 5-38?
Running away? Why? Someone told you I signed this translation or participated in it?
I hope you don't ask me next time why Shakir said this or Yusuf Ali said that...
It's just like that. -
Well, One is for the Cub and one for the thief, as I said before.
However, Yousuf's Brother story is not and cannot be used to cancel out 5-38 as I showed the reasons before.
Did I say that?
You said to Wakas "ask Samia", and Samia respondedAsk samia if there are two (2) Hwa in the "two red arabic words" or not? Further, ask her if one belongs to the Thief and one belongs to the Cup or not?
-
peace Layth,
Salam,
Just to add my two cents worth...It seems from the Quran that Abraham was indeed married to two women. One who bore him Ismail, and, many years later, another who bore him Isaac.
The evidence for this can be found as follows
- When Abraham is raising the foundation of the Temple, he is helped by Ismail, who, to help in such task, must at least have been a young adult.
- When Abraham is visited in old age by the angels, and is given news of a son, he says his wife is barren and could not possibly have children (thus ruling her out from being Ismail's mother).
- The conversation of Abraham with the angels always refers to one wife (he never says "one of my wives is barren"...he simply says "my wife is barren" which means that the mother of Ismail is no longer on the scene (having either passed away or been divorced) when Isaac is born.
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
- IF it is taken literally as raising a physical building.
- It can also mean WHEN the "angels" visited Abraham his wife was barren, i.e. at that time, not for all times past and present. She may have just been post menopause..... hence the age.
- wives can be divorced or pass away, yes.
Based on the evidence presented.
-
Peace all,
one thing I personally find very objectionable with some peeps in free-minds is that idea they have about allegorical and metaphorical aspects in the Quran which they take as far as arguing that Prophets, Angels, Jinns, and Quranic Stories inclusive of Hell fire and Paradise are just parables to teach us lessons and do not really exist or have not really existed in the past...
This makes a mockery of the Quran and Allah's Message, and removes any binding, because the whole thing becomes a work of pop bubblegum psychology, the kind of stuff you listen to at self improvement seminars, or philosophy seminars about the meaning of life...
I guess those who think that come from that kind of background too, in my opinion, not that I diss them, I flirted with this kind of thing for a while, but the message given is pretty shallow and only scratches the surface of reality, even if it says the opposite... -
Please chose your sources carefully. The current Torah/Bible is pretty much the same as todays Hadith (i.e. full of lies and conjecture).
Peace all,
Layth, There are no evidences in Quran say that the Torah and Injeel are or will be corrupted, but will be guarded as the Quran.
After all, The Ziker includes the Quran and what were revealed before the Quran.
To stand before God and say that we thought the Torah and Injeel are corrupted, and therefore, we did not give any weight to its contents will be hard to argue without authority from Quran. Actually, the only authority we Have is the hadiths that say that.Based on the above, Would you agree that Today's Translations of the Torah, Bible, and Quran are full of lies and conjecture, but the Original Versions (Hebrew Torah, Aramaic Injeel, and Arabic Quran), which exist today are not corrupted.
Running away? Why? Someone told you I signed this translation or participated in it?
I hope you don't ask me next time why Shakir said this or Yusuf Ali said that...
It's just like that.You are running away from saying the Truth...The truth that 5-33 free-minds.org's translation is correct and 5-38 is not...5-38 translation represents the Translator understanding and not the actual word by word translation. 5-38 translation is a Sectarian Translation as Shia and Suna's Translation of 24-2.
-
peace Layth,
- IF it is taken literally as raising a physical building.
- It can also mean WHEN the "angels" visited Abraham his wife was barren, i.e. at that time, not for all times past and present. She may have just been post menopause..... hence the age.
- wives can be divorced or pass away, yes.
Based on the evidence presented.
Peace Wakas,
If you believe in the Torah, Injeel and Quran, you wouldn't be Lost as you are today...you will know the True story of Abraham and Yousuf, and You will know that Hajj is to Jerusalem where Abraham built the Restricted House.
