Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

Layth

Salam,

On this discussion of theft, there are some points that need to be highlighted

The story of Joseph (a prophet) in dealing with the subject cannot be ignored/overlooked as we are told that in their story are signs (127);
Jospeh's brother returns what was allegedly stolen (the king's mesuring spatula) and is then punished by remaining behind as a penalty (i.e. the argument of the punishment being needed more than the crime overlooks this fact that the property was fully returned to begin with);
The linking that is being done betwen 533 & 538 is wrong as the word used is not the same (qatti3u in 533 and iqta3u in 538 - the emphasis on the "ta" changes the meaning from a severing type of cut to a stopping type of cut (see all other references of "qatta3u" they are almost always physical severing/cutting, while all references of "qata3u" will be of a suspending/stopping meaning);
Having the wrong understanding of "iqta3u" not olnly leads to a wrong implementation/understanding, but, if we wanted to carry the verse out to the letter, this wrong understanding would require a physical severing of both hands of the theif (not one hand) as 538 speaks of the hands in the plural form (not dual) for the male and female theif.

In summary, what is stated on the FM website regarding the issue of theft is completely accurate.

guest

Peace Layth,

Salam Guest,

You seemed to have ignored my reference to 1554 which established that Abraham had just reached "old age" when he was given news of Isaac.
The wording in 1439 makes clear that Abraham never links the birth of his two sons with his old age (which you are alluding to). Had Ismail and Isaac both been born while he was in old age (which contradicts 1554 anyway), the wording would have been "fil alkibar" and not the wording that the Quran used "ala alkibar".

Regards,

This is how you (and others) have translated 1439 in the ?The Message?

1439 ?Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the Hearer of prayer.?

Are you saying this is wrong? If so, then how would you modify it? Thanks.

And I did not ignore 1554, just that I do not agree with your statement ?Abraham had just reached "old age" when he was given news of Isaac.? Old age is span of years and therefore there is no contradiction between 1439 and 1554. Also, keep in mind that we are talking about old age with respect to having offspring.

guest

Peace,

Salam,

On this discussion of theft, there are some points that need to be highlighted

The story of Joseph (a prophet) in dealing with the subject cannot be ignored/overlooked as we are told that in their story are signs (127);
Jospeh's brother returns what was allegedly stolen (the king's mesuring spatula) and is then punished by remaining behind as a penalty (i.e. the argument of the punishment being needed more than the crime overlooks this fact that the property was fully returned to begin with);
The linking that is being done betwen 533 & 538 is wrong as the word used is not the same (qatti3u in 533 and iqta3u in 538 - the emphasis on the "ta" changes the meaning from a severing type of cut to a stopping type of cut (see all other references of "qatta3u" they are almost always physical severing/cutting, while all references of "qata3u" will be of a suspending/stopping meaning);
Having the wrong understanding of "iqta3u" not olnly leads to a wrong implementation/understanding, but, if we wanted to carry the verse out to the letter, this wrong understanding would require a physical severing of both hands of the theif (not one hand) as 538 speaks of the hands in the plural form (not dual) for the male and female theif.

In summary, what is stated on the FM website regarding the issue of theft is completely accurate.

And the signs/lessons are

Democracy is flawed i.e. Joseph?s brothers used democracy to kill Joseph which is wrong
Don?t be jealous of other, be content with what you have
Worship One God
Do not lie (brothers lying to their father)
Do not fight God because you cannot win (brothers fighting against the God?s plan)
Do not commit adultery
The God protects the righteous (Joseph saw a sign from God when she said I am all yours)
The God supports the believers ( Joseph kept his brother in Egypt)
Do not commit crime

THERE IS NO LESSON FOR PUNISHMENT OF THIEVES.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

It is not deterence rather examplary recompense for what they have done.
Deterence is before committment of the crime. Once crime is comitted it is PUNISHMENT not deterence.
Only 19ers and Khalafites can think to "prevent" the crime AFTER it has been Committed.
What a unique prevention.
Regards

How is it that you always bring up "khalifites", "19ers", etc. in each thread that you participate in?
Rashad Khalifa opted for the "mark/cut hands" option, so your post doesnt make sense.

I will ask the Question again, I hope you can see it this time

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

Your question has nothing to do with the contect of the Quran
I have asked you numerous questions, many of which were posed before you asked the above one
Originally the question wasnt directed at me, BUT
I have already answered it. Perhaps you cannot read properly.

If you have not rebbuttal of the following, your arguement is destroyed (please answer/counter each question/point)

belH,

Did God create the universe with his three or more hands, or his might/resouces/power (5147)?

Were David, Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael resourceful or did they have multiple hands (3817; 3857)?

Why does God show us the punishment for theft put into action by Joseph if this is not what he wants us to do? Does God want to confuse us? Is He telling us this story for fun?

Where does it say that the punishment used by Jospeh is out-of-date/not for us to implement as you have conjectured?

538 The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut-off/cut their means/resources as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as a deterrent from God. God is Noble, Wise.

Nice try, belal. I knew that you would come up with this arguement. It clearly states "THE male thief" and "THE female thief" emphasizing not only that the punishment is for both males or females, but that one should cut/cut-off their multiple resources, and not their respective three or more hands.

Furthermore you are punishing one person at a time. Mentioning male and female shows that we are to punish both sexes the same way/treat them equally. Since you punish one person at a time, how can you cut their three or more hands?

This verse would not really make much sense if we use your logic, since you are advocating to cut off both hands of the thief. The punishment however happens for each person at a time/seperately - how then can you cut off the three or more hands of such a thief?

Also, does the verse that follows make sense if we use your logic?

539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and reforms, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

How nice! With no more hands left!

728 When they commit evil acts, they say, "We found our fathers doing such, and God ordered us to it." Say, "God does not order evil! Do you say about God what you do not know?"

729 Say, "My Lord orders justice, and that you be devoted at every institution of obeisance/submission (masjid), and that you call on Him, while being faithful to Him in the system; as He initiated you, so you will return."

Pay close attention to (from the above quote)

We are to punish one person at a time. Mentioning male and female shows that we are to punish both sexes the same way/treat them equally. Since you punish one person at a time, how can you cut their three or more hands?

This verse would not really make much sense if we use your logic, since you are advocating to cut off both hands of the thief. The punishment however happens for each person at a time/seperately - how then can you cut off the three or more hands of such a thief?

Also, how come you opted for butching one hand at first, but then when you saw how silly your arguement was and did not match with the Quran/Reading? Is the Quran/Reading too unclear about chopping off hands?
FYI If we take the "resources" interpretation, it makes perfect sense to use the plural, "aydi", and we dont have to be engaged in guesswork and are uncertain like you.

guest

I will ask the Question again, I hope you can see it this time

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

By the way, non in this thread, whom have been arguing against my understanding were able to answer the question...If you are not able to answer, then admit that your proposed punishment is unrealistic.

Peace

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. That?s why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that ???. Oppression is worse than murder?...?

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the God?s punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devil?s punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Layth

Salam,

This is how you (and others) have translated 1439 in the ?The Message?

1439 ?Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the Hearer of prayer.?

Are you saying this is wrong? If so, then how would you modify it? Thanks

It goes without saying that the original will always correct the translation.

Q_student

How is it that you always bring up "khalifites", "19ers", etc. in each thread that you participate in?
Rashad Khalifa opted for the "mark/cut hands" option, so your post doesnt make sense.

.

Because I have found that group to be the most irrational one this universe can have.
Who can be more irrational than who says that the Quran has been lying for 1400 years?

Is this not height of irrationality and stupidity ?
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Also, how come you opted for butching one hand at first, but then when you saw how silly your arguement was and did not match with the Quran/Reading? Is the Quran/Reading too unclear about chopping off hands?
FYI If we take the "resources" interpretation, it makes perfect sense to use the plural, "aydi", and we dont have to be engaged in guesswork and are uncertain like you.

Let me make the above more clear first you opted for "butcher one hand". Then, when I pointed out to you that does not make sense, you changed to "butcher their hands". With the "cut/cut off their means/resources/power" interpretation, the plural usage makes sense and there is nothing unclear about it, and one does not need to be involved in guesswork and being uncertain like you.

Furthermore, does it mean "cut hands" or "cut off hands"?

Using cross-reference of "iqatoo" and other forms of this, one could use 1231 and 1250 to convey/prove the meaning "to mark" and 533, 7124, 2071, 2649 to convey/prove the meaning "to cut off/amputate". So, which one is it? Are you for chopping off the three or more hands of one thief or are you for cutting/marking the three or more hands of a thief? What is your justification for your choice? How is it that it is not 100% clear?

unknownuser

242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...

why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?

noble

Peace
decouple 1275 from 538
remove the obsession of aggravated/grievous bodily harm
throw in that you punish according to physical injury inflicted i.e. qasas and so on
implement programs of rehabilitation instead of prisons
have a society whose roots are God fearing

result no need for your violent understanding of 538 which is not what Allah means by any shot.

You are misled, you are wrong, you are in trouble, and you are leading belH, Q_S and others with you into a pit, can't you see it...

and yes, since the death of Ali, the Islamic civilisation has gone downwards, and now it does not exist,
it is ahadith owing to everything that Allah expects from muslims and believers...
people like you are history and will remain history so long as you have the brain maturity of stones...
Allah will carry on punishing the Arabs and their followers until they get it!

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. That?s why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that ???. Oppression is worse than murder?...?

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the God?s punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devil?s punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Nabster,

the religious as you can see will only ever inflict religion upon those around them, I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately, anyway there is little point getting upset at the ignorance and stupidity of the religious subjugators, they have limited intellect, just say, 'you are wrong, peace.', As they will just continue to express the same perspective and ignore any and all evidence, logic or reason to the contrary.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salaam Nabster,

the religious as you can see will only ever inflict religion upon those around them, I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately, anyway there is little point getting upset at the ignorance and stupidity of the religious subjugators, they have limited intellect, just say, 'you are wrong, peace.', As they will just continue to express the same perspective and ignore any and all evidence, logic or reason to the contrary.

I read it. It makes a lot of sense. However, I'd say the core meaning of "aydi" in 538 is "means/resources".

noble

Peace Abdun Nur
and thank you for insisting I read your interpretation.
it is very spot on and quranic in my understanding, i am keen on the elaboration you made of the three hands as being
H1 any position of authority within the community,
H2 standing as a witness
H3 physical labour
and i advise free-minders to read your account too...

salam and blessings

Noble

Salaam,

if you'd like to read my view,

http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

hope4

Peace

This is a true story

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.

Peace

belH

Peace all,

Regarding deterrent, stopping someone from stealing, taking from his resources, and other punitive actions will be
deterrent enough.

How would you accomplish (e.g., Jail) the following

deterrent
stopping someone from stealing
other punitive actions

This obsession you have with 533 and 538 is compulsive and not natural, a normal person would have let go a long time ago and moved on to another subject, arguing that ok fair enough, free-minds have their view, I have mine, tough, but such is that.

) You keep forgetting the reason of my Thread...I will remind you again

Is Free-minds.org a Sect, like Suni and Shia, because they are promoting a wrong understanding of Islam...In this thread we are debating about what I believe are wrong understanding of Islam, including their understanding of 5-38...

That being said, where was I?

rotfl

yes the wisdom of 533 and 538 near one another.

Now the Prophet has a young community being built up, they have many enemies, 533 is revealed, it is a harsh ayat, and it is linked to the way the Romans, Assyrians, Persians, and other pagans punish their people, is revealed for many crimes, some even small crimes, this is a threat ayat.

So you agree that the Punishment for the People who corrupt in Land is To Cut Off their Hand and Leg, according to 5-33...Now, Does the Thief commits a corruption in Land when stealing? Please answer by yes or No, so we can proceed in a constructive manner.

Peace

noble

belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell...

belH

Jospeh's brother returns what was allegedly stolen (the king's mesuring spatula) and is then punished by remaining behind as a penalty (i.e. the argument of the punishment being needed more than the crime overlooks this fact that the property was fully returned to begin with);

Peace,

Please can you clarify the meaning of "Remaining Behind"...Do you mean to be in Slavery (as was the Punishment of Yousuf's Brother), or Jail time?

The linking that is being done betwen 533 & 538 is wrong as the word used is not the same (qatti3u in 533 and iqta3u in 538 - the emphasis on the "ta" changes the meaning from a severing type of cut to a stopping type of cut (see all other references of "qatta3u" they are almost always physical severing/cutting, while all references of "qata3u" will be of a suspending/stopping meaning);

Sorry, but I never heard this before; the Verb meaning stays the same and the action would change based on the proceeding words (e.g., cut the Hand, cut the Road, Cut the Job, Cut the Air supply)...The verb in 5-33 and 5-38 iare constructed as follow

= + + +
= +

Both words has the Root Word

In 5-33 it means "Shall Cut"
In 5-38 it means "You Shall Cut"

belH

belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell...

Again, you need to stop being irrational and answer my questions so we all can learn.

belH

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. Thats why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that . Oppression is worse than murder...

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the Gods punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devils punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Peace,

The punishment Free-minds.org is promoting is to take the Thief into Slavery, as were the punishment of 12-75, or to Jail the Thief...Both punishments are not prescribed by God, or even less harsh than 5-38...However, as I said before, we need to understand the meaning of the word "Sarrek" (thief)...Does the person who steals to feed his family when the society fails to provide a Job or Food assistance is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
Does the Person Who steals to provide Medicine to his family is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
If some one steals for the first time and ask to be forgiven, and commit ed to not steal again is a "Sareek"? (I do not believe the punishment of 5-38 would apply because 5-39 gave him a chance).

Moreover, I believe if any country decides to implement the law of 5-38, then all the thieves in Jails should be freed because they were not informed about the Punishment when they committed their crime.

Peace

belH

I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately,

Peace,
actually, I read it and replied to you.