Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

guest

I will ask the Question again, I hope you can see it this time

how would you go about enforcing the thief to work and repay what was stolen, especially if he needs to work to repay 50 billion dollar?

In your answer, did you mean Jail Him, or did you mean take him into slavery? Furthermore, what Kind of Job would make the Thief earn 50 Billion Dollar, as in Medoff Case.

By the way, non in this thread, whom have been arguing against my understanding were able to answer the question...If you are not able to answer, then admit that your proposed punishment is unrealistic.

Peace

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. That?s why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that ???. Oppression is worse than murder?...?

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the God?s punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devil?s punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Layth

Salam,

This is how you (and others) have translated 1439 in the ?The Message?

1439 ?Praise be to God who has granted me in my old age Ishmael and Isaac. My Lord is the Hearer of prayer.?

Are you saying this is wrong? If so, then how would you modify it? Thanks

It goes without saying that the original will always correct the translation.

Q_student

How is it that you always bring up "khalifites", "19ers", etc. in each thread that you participate in?
Rashad Khalifa opted for the "mark/cut hands" option, so your post doesnt make sense.

.

Because I have found that group to be the most irrational one this universe can have.
Who can be more irrational than who says that the Quran has been lying for 1400 years?

Is this not height of irrationality and stupidity ?
Regards

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Also, how come you opted for butching one hand at first, but then when you saw how silly your arguement was and did not match with the Quran/Reading? Is the Quran/Reading too unclear about chopping off hands?
FYI If we take the "resources" interpretation, it makes perfect sense to use the plural, "aydi", and we dont have to be engaged in guesswork and are uncertain like you.

Let me make the above more clear first you opted for "butcher one hand". Then, when I pointed out to you that does not make sense, you changed to "butcher their hands". With the "cut/cut off their means/resources/power" interpretation, the plural usage makes sense and there is nothing unclear about it, and one does not need to be involved in guesswork and being uncertain like you.

Furthermore, does it mean "cut hands" or "cut off hands"?

Using cross-reference of "iqatoo" and other forms of this, one could use 1231 and 1250 to convey/prove the meaning "to mark" and 533, 7124, 2071, 2649 to convey/prove the meaning "to cut off/amputate". So, which one is it? Are you for chopping off the three or more hands of one thief or are you for cutting/marking the three or more hands of a thief? What is your justification for your choice? How is it that it is not 100% clear?

unknownuser

242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...

why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?

noble

Peace
decouple 1275 from 538
remove the obsession of aggravated/grievous bodily harm
throw in that you punish according to physical injury inflicted i.e. qasas and so on
implement programs of rehabilitation instead of prisons
have a society whose roots are God fearing

result no need for your violent understanding of 538 which is not what Allah means by any shot.

You are misled, you are wrong, you are in trouble, and you are leading belH, Q_S and others with you into a pit, can't you see it...

and yes, since the death of Ali, the Islamic civilisation has gone downwards, and now it does not exist,
it is ahadith owing to everything that Allah expects from muslims and believers...
people like you are history and will remain history so long as you have the brain maturity of stones...
Allah will carry on punishing the Arabs and their followers until they get it!

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. That?s why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that ???. Oppression is worse than murder?...?

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the God?s punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devil?s punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Abdun_Nur

Salaam Nabster,

the religious as you can see will only ever inflict religion upon those around them, I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately, anyway there is little point getting upset at the ignorance and stupidity of the religious subjugators, they have limited intellect, just say, 'you are wrong, peace.', As they will just continue to express the same perspective and ignore any and all evidence, logic or reason to the contrary.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Salaam Nabster,

the religious as you can see will only ever inflict religion upon those around them, I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately, anyway there is little point getting upset at the ignorance and stupidity of the religious subjugators, they have limited intellect, just say, 'you are wrong, peace.', As they will just continue to express the same perspective and ignore any and all evidence, logic or reason to the contrary.

I read it. It makes a lot of sense. However, I'd say the core meaning of "aydi" in 538 is "means/resources".

noble

Peace Abdun Nur
and thank you for insisting I read your interpretation.
it is very spot on and quranic in my understanding, i am keen on the elaboration you made of the three hands as being
H1 any position of authority within the community,
H2 standing as a witness
H3 physical labour
and i advise free-minders to read your account too...

salam and blessings

Noble

Salaam,

if you'd like to read my view,

http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

hope4

Peace

This is a true story

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff

Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.

Peace

belH

Peace all,

Regarding deterrent, stopping someone from stealing, taking from his resources, and other punitive actions will be
deterrent enough.

How would you accomplish (e.g., Jail) the following

deterrent
stopping someone from stealing
other punitive actions

This obsession you have with 533 and 538 is compulsive and not natural, a normal person would have let go a long time ago and moved on to another subject, arguing that ok fair enough, free-minds have their view, I have mine, tough, but such is that.

) You keep forgetting the reason of my Thread...I will remind you again

Is Free-minds.org a Sect, like Suni and Shia, because they are promoting a wrong understanding of Islam...In this thread we are debating about what I believe are wrong understanding of Islam, including their understanding of 5-38...

That being said, where was I?

rotfl

yes the wisdom of 533 and 538 near one another.

Now the Prophet has a young community being built up, they have many enemies, 533 is revealed, it is a harsh ayat, and it is linked to the way the Romans, Assyrians, Persians, and other pagans punish their people, is revealed for many crimes, some even small crimes, this is a threat ayat.

So you agree that the Punishment for the People who corrupt in Land is To Cut Off their Hand and Leg, according to 5-33...Now, Does the Thief commits a corruption in Land when stealing? Please answer by yes or No, so we can proceed in a constructive manner.

Peace

noble

belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell...

belH

Jospeh's brother returns what was allegedly stolen (the king's mesuring spatula) and is then punished by remaining behind as a penalty (i.e. the argument of the punishment being needed more than the crime overlooks this fact that the property was fully returned to begin with);

Peace,

Please can you clarify the meaning of "Remaining Behind"...Do you mean to be in Slavery (as was the Punishment of Yousuf's Brother), or Jail time?

The linking that is being done betwen 533 & 538 is wrong as the word used is not the same (qatti3u in 533 and iqta3u in 538 - the emphasis on the "ta" changes the meaning from a severing type of cut to a stopping type of cut (see all other references of "qatta3u" they are almost always physical severing/cutting, while all references of "qata3u" will be of a suspending/stopping meaning);

Sorry, but I never heard this before; the Verb meaning stays the same and the action would change based on the proceeding words (e.g., cut the Hand, cut the Road, Cut the Job, Cut the Air supply)...The verb in 5-33 and 5-38 iare constructed as follow

= + + +
= +

Both words has the Root Word

In 5-33 it means "Shall Cut"
In 5-38 it means "You Shall Cut"

belH

belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell...

Again, you need to stop being irrational and answer my questions so we all can learn.

belH

Peace belH,

You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.

1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)

The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. Thats why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that . Oppression is worse than murder...

Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the Gods punishment of 538.

Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devils punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275

The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.

You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.

Peace,

The punishment Free-minds.org is promoting is to take the Thief into Slavery, as were the punishment of 12-75, or to Jail the Thief...Both punishments are not prescribed by God, or even less harsh than 5-38...However, as I said before, we need to understand the meaning of the word "Sarrek" (thief)...Does the person who steals to feed his family when the society fails to provide a Job or Food assistance is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
Does the Person Who steals to provide Medicine to his family is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
If some one steals for the first time and ask to be forgiven, and commit ed to not steal again is a "Sareek"? (I do not believe the punishment of 5-38 would apply because 5-39 gave him a chance).

Moreover, I believe if any country decides to implement the law of 5-38, then all the thieves in Jails should be freed because they were not informed about the Punishment when they committed their crime.

Peace

belH

I posted a link to an essay on this physical punishment topic, earlier in this thread, but no one read it unfortunately,

Peace,
actually, I read it and replied to you.

noble

when Allah opens your heart to rationality and reality, you will be entitled to make such a statement.
for now carry on in the disturbed and troubled path that you are wrongly attributing to the Almighty...
and i learn from Allah, not from the likes of you, who distort Allah's words...

Again, you need to stop being irrational and answer my questions so me and everyone can learn.

belH

Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.

Peace

Peace,

Which is more harsher, Putting him in Jail for 150 years or Cutting his hands? In other words, which punishment would Medoff choose?

Abdun_Nur

Salaam BelH,

are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.

The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?

I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

belH

Salaam BelH,

are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.

The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?

I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

Peace,
First, what is your understanding of 5-33?
Second, As far as thieves punishment, the following are the assumptions that you need to take into consideration when arguing against my understanding of 5-38

The Thief is the Person who refuses to Work to earn living; and
The thief is the person who is offered living assistance by the society, but he still likes to steal; and
The thief is the person whom was offered forgiveness before, but he is insisting in stealing
peace