Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace Abdun Nur
and thank you for insisting I read your interpretation.
it is very spot on and quranic in my understanding, i am keen on the elaboration you made of the three hands as being
H1 any position of authority within the community,
H2 standing as a witness
H3 physical labour
and i advise free-minders to read your account too...salam and blessings
Noble
Salaam,
if you'd like to read my view,
http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/
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Peace
This is a true story
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff
Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.
Peace
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Peace all,
Regarding deterrent, stopping someone from stealing, taking from his resources, and other punitive actions will be
deterrent enough.How would you accomplish (e.g., Jail) the following
deterrent
stopping someone from stealing
other punitive actionsThis obsession you have with 533 and 538 is compulsive and not natural, a normal person would have let go a long time ago and moved on to another subject, arguing that ok fair enough, free-minds have their view, I have mine, tough, but such is that.
) You keep forgetting the reason of my Thread...I will remind you again
Is Free-minds.org a Sect, like Suni and Shia, because they are promoting a wrong understanding of Islam...In this thread we are debating about what I believe are wrong understanding of Islam, including their understanding of 5-38...
That being said, where was I?
rotfl
yes the wisdom of 533 and 538 near one another.
Now the Prophet has a young community being built up, they have many enemies, 533 is revealed, it is a harsh ayat, and it is linked to the way the Romans, Assyrians, Persians, and other pagans punish their people, is revealed for many crimes, some even small crimes, this is a threat ayat.
So you agree that the Punishment for the People who corrupt in Land is To Cut Off their Hand and Leg, according to 5-33...Now, Does the Thief commits a corruption in Land when stealing? Please answer by yes or No, so we can proceed in a constructive manner.
Peace
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belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell... -
- Jospeh's brother returns what was allegedly stolen (the king's mesuring spatula) and is then punished by remaining behind as a penalty (i.e. the argument of the punishment being needed more than the crime overlooks this fact that the property was fully returned to begin with);
Peace,
Please can you clarify the meaning of "Remaining Behind"...Do you mean to be in Slavery (as was the Punishment of Yousuf's Brother), or Jail time?
- The linking that is being done betwen 533 & 538 is wrong as the word used is not the same (qatti3u in 533 and iqta3u in 538 - the emphasis on the "ta" changes the meaning from a severing type of cut to a stopping type of cut (see all other references of "qatta3u" they are almost always physical severing/cutting, while all references of "qata3u" will be of a suspending/stopping meaning);
Sorry, but I never heard this before; the Verb meaning stays the same and the action would change based on the proceeding words (e.g., cut the Hand, cut the Road, Cut the Job, Cut the Air supply)...The verb in 5-33 and 5-38 iare constructed as follow
= + + +
= +Both words has the Root Word
In 5-33 it means "Shall Cut"
In 5-38 it means "You Shall Cut" -
belH
if you carry on with your flimsy logic, i am sorry but i cannot carry on debating with you, i clearly said that 538 does not mean amputating hands, 533 is a threat to disbelievers who attack the Prophet's young community and army (punishments they themselves inflict to their enemies and themselves, nothing Quranic or Godly)...
either you get it, or you are in danger of becoming a non - muslim...
you cannot pick and choose, it is a whole package, you have a muslim society or you have not...
within that muslim society we respect and honor the integrity of a believer, his life and his body,
there is a proportionate justice system, and justifying taking away a living hand for inanimate object however expensive is an abomination in the sight of Allah, you are a criminal if you believe so. This is indeed the law of kufr, you failed the test... so go to hell...Again, you need to stop being irrational and answer my questions so we all can learn.
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Peace belH,
You will not get an answer from the people who asserts that the punishment for theft should be in accordance with verse 1275. This is absurd because verse 1275 make no sense at all. It is an ill sentence which CANNOT be the law of God.
1275 - They said, "The punishment is that the person who has it in his bag shall himself be held as penalty. It is such that we punish the doers of wrong." (progressive1993)
The utterance of 1275 is made by a misguided, disbelieving person. Thats why it contradicts so many Quranic verses. For example, when someone holds somebody indefinitely against his will is the same as oppression. And we know from 2191 that . Oppression is worse than murder...
Then comes the question of how much hourly wages should be attached for work performed by the thieves (50 cents, one dollar, 100 dollar an hour or million dollars an hour; who sets them). What forms of work should be forced upon the thief. Another way of looking at it is the person looses all dignity. This law definitely turns a person into a slave, who could be sold at will and an unimaginable punishment inflicted upon them. Compare this with cutting hands where the thief maintains his freedom and does not suffer the torture of 1275. Therefore, my question is which punishment is preferable The devils punishment of 1275 or the Gods punishment of 538.
Now, I will use an example to illustrate further the devils punishment of 1275. Let apply 1275 to Hollywood star Winona Ryder, she stole from a Beverly Hills store to prepare for a film role. Let analyze some of the possible outcome under the law of 1275
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The owner may say as a payment (punishment), I will have my way with her only once
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Another might say each time I have my way with her will amounts to a repayment of xxx dollars
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Yet another one may force prostitution on her as a method of payment for the rest of her life
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This is what 1275 does to a person and some ignorant people say it is from God. What a miserable decision they make. Be ware of them.
You can witness the above horrendous crime in their implemention of the utterance in 1275 (as the punishment of stealing). They will make the devil very happy.
Peace,
The punishment Free-minds.org is promoting is to take the Thief into Slavery, as were the punishment of 12-75, or to Jail the Thief...Both punishments are not prescribed by God, or even less harsh than 5-38...However, as I said before, we need to understand the meaning of the word "Sarrek" (thief)...Does the person who steals to feed his family when the society fails to provide a Job or Food assistance is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
Does the Person Who steals to provide Medicine to his family is a Thief? (I do not believe so)
If some one steals for the first time and ask to be forgiven, and commit ed to not steal again is a "Sareek"? (I do not believe the punishment of 5-38 would apply because 5-39 gave him a chance).Moreover, I believe if any country decides to implement the law of 5-38, then all the thieves in Jails should be freed because they were not informed about the Punishment when they committed their crime.
Peace
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when Allah opens your heart to rationality and reality, you will be entitled to make such a statement.
for now carry on in the disturbed and troubled path that you are wrongly attributing to the Almighty...
and i learn from Allah, not from the likes of you, who distort Allah's words...Again, you need to stop being irrational and answer my questions so me and everyone can learn.
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Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.
Peace
Peace,
Which is more harsher, Putting him in Jail for 150 years or Cutting his hands? In other words, which punishment would Medoff choose?
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Salaam BelH,
are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.
The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?
I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/
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Salaam BelH,
are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.
The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?
I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/
Peace,
First, what is your understanding of 5-33?
Second, As far as thieves punishment, the following are the assumptions that you need to take into consideration when arguing against my understanding of 5-38The Thief is the Person who refuses to Work to earn living; and
The thief is the person who is offered living assistance by the society, but he still likes to steal; and
The thief is the person whom was offered forgiveness before, but he is insisting in stealing
peace -
242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...
why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?
This is a good point.
Just like why it is not defined which part of this arm should be amputated. The word "hand"/ "yad" can be up to the elbowO ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows
(56)Or maybe it means they should be amputated up to the elbow?
What do you think, Belal and student of the quraan? Why do think it's just the hand? -
belH, salam,
please understand this is not a contest about who is going to reach first a conclusion regarding a matter or not...
this is simply about you, and other arabic muslims...
i am most certain, before even starting being able to read, in an arabic setting one is impregnated that a thief gets his hand chopped
off if he steals, so it is accepted as a fact, even if not practiced by the law, it is taken as the normal course to be taken.
so that is called being primed to accept something, or if you wish, being brain-washed, this is how Hitler brain-washed his citizens into believing they were a superior race unlike the other races, so after that it is easy to action laws...
i am afraid you and most "muslim" arabs are a victim of that and many other brain washing...
you still operate from some sunni filter, even if you will not admit it, in fact you can revert into sunnism quite easily...
i am quite impressed that you got convinced to change your qiblah to Jerusalem, most sunnis will never even if you skin them alive!
but that is another matter...
before any progress can be made, you need to stop using your past as a reference, even your signature comes from your past and is typically sunni (it is from sunni school of thought)...
to rebuild you cannot have pre-conceptions, past motives or ulterior motives... it is extremely hard... it is harsh... but the reward is Jenna...
you know if i were to believe in only one hadith, of all hadiths, it will be the one where the Prophet was reported to say that the Ummah will split into over 70 groups, only one will enter paradise... (but without the added three different versions which cannot all be true)...
now look at the history of mankind, and at the way they have run their affairs, and tell us, who when things get out of control starts running the show?
who likes turning people one against the other?
who likes to make things hardest for humans?
who has no respect, no compassion, no second thought, no feeling for human suffering?
who is the biggest thief, cannot create anything, steal from the many, gives to the few, controls and divides, and gives
the impression that he does it for the better good, and succeeds at it?
who manipulates opposing sides, making each one believe he is their friend, leading to utter destruction, and promising them
he will guarantee they will achieve their goal, but time after time they fail their goal, they turn to him for help, and he is not there
for them? and next time if they manage to survive like a bad pupil who never learns, they will make the same mistake and trust him again to advise them run their affairs...
if you know who this entity is, and i know you are not that stupid, you know full well, you will understand who wants Islam and the Muslims to be seen as blood thirsty barbarians, because they follow him too... Without knowing, the sunnis, shias, alaouis, sufis, christians, jews, atheists, etc are in fact the same sect, his sect but different colors and cosmetics.So belH congratulations carry on in his hizb with your wonderful 'ilm... you make him proud...
Peace,
First, what is your understanding of 5-33?
Second, As far as thieves punishment, the following are the assumptions that you need to take into consideration when arguing against my understanding of 5-38The Thief is the Person who refuses to Work to earn living; and
The thief is the person who is offered living assistance by the society, but he still likes to steal; and
The thief is the person whom was offered forgiveness before, but he is insisting in stealing
peace -
Salaam BelH,
you say a thief will not work, based on what? Thieves are often very industrious, take the modern bankers, or the government, or the legal system, they work extremely hard to steal as much as possible, would you hack off limbs in their case?
Thieves that are on drugs, also labour to gain their next fix, they will do whatever it takes.
When the establishment in control of the people, whether desired or not, exist as a criminal cabal, it is not surprising to see the lowest dregs of the social order copying the elite of society, who steal every penny they can from those around them.
I do not wish to hack off limbs, as you, I do not even wish to imprison them.
They should be judge on their actions, if for example those in the Government of the oligarchy, murder a million Iraqis, they should be executed as mass murderer, if they steal from those around them, they should have their assets removed to cover the theft, and if possible labour to repay any remainder.
If the sovereign powers were removed, the dregs of society would be removed with them, as they are a symptom of the disease.
The vast majority of the legal system works in the administration of drug abuse, the drugs are made and distributed by the sovereign powers, almost entirely, take Afghanistan, before the oligarchy arrived, there was no drug abuse, or drug production in that country, now it is the world leader in drug production, and drug abuse has become widespread.
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242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...
why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?
Is it really painful?
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salaam Abdun Nur
I do not think belH will understand what you mean.
or more precisely, he will feign not to understand it...
i speculate, but i guess him and guest are just here to glean info for you know who...
otherwise they are too stupid to be real...
or maybe i am too demanding and this is what we will keep on getting as samples from past brain washed
sunnis,
they are badly damaged insofar as thinking independently is concerned, but modulated with an ambiguity and
a fear to challenge core global issues...
so nah, details are easier for them to handle, talking to them about systemic problems is just a waste of breath,
they cannot think globally, and besides they live in the past anyways (in fact a manufactured version of the past)...Salaam BelH,
you say a thief will not work, based on what? Thieves are often very industrious, take the modern bankers, or the government, or the legal system, they work extremely hard to steal as much as possible, would you hack off limbs in their case?
Thieves that are on drugs, also labour to gain their next fix, they will do whatever it takes.
When the establishment in control of the people, whether desired or not, exist as a criminal cabal, it is not surprising to see the lowest dregs of the social order copying the elite of society, who steal every penny they can from those around them.
I do not wish to hack off limbs, as you, I do not even wish to imprison them.
They should be judge on their actions, if for example those in the Government of the oligarchy, murder a million Iraqis, they should be executed as mass murderer, if they steal from those around them, they should have their assets removed to cover the theft, and if possible labour to repay any remainder.
If the sovereign powers were removed, the dregs of society would be removed with them, as they are a symptom of the disease.
The vast majority of the legal system works in the administration of drug abuse, the drugs are made and distributed by the sovereign powers, almost entirely, take Afghanistan, before the oligarchy arrived, there was no drug abuse, or drug production in that country, now it is the world leader in drug production, and drug abuse has become widespread.
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Peace,
Which is more harsher, Putting him in Jail for 150 years or Cutting his hands? In other words, which punishment would Medoff choose?
Peace belH
Ok now he has a choice. I can not speak on his behalf but I am sure he wont be jailed for 150 years. If he chose his hand to be cut off some may say look his out after paying a cheap prize for his crime. Hence he still has his liberty. If he goes to jail for a lengthy time people may say look our tax money is going on him. He is having a good time in jail. Its a hard one to judge. Now consider this. How can you hurt or punish a person who is rich? I would say cut from his resources, a life change will be harsh for him.
Peace
Hope
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Peace all,
I would like to not discuss the Thief punishment issue further because it is off topic. My topic is very clear, which is If free-minds.org adheres to doctrine that represents a unique understanding of Quran that is different from others, then Free-minds.org is a Sect and not a Free-Minds Forum.
Moreover, Free-minds.org should translate the Quran "word by word" without feeding their own understanding into the translation, which would restricted the freedom of others to have their own understanding.Please always remember that because you were not a victim of a Criminal act before, you have no clue of the Suffering of those who were victims...the suffering that drove a Nation to go to wars with two countries...the suffering of a victims whom their life saving were stolen by a greedy rich man.
Because God knows the suffering of these victims, He Declared saver punishments for these criminals in 5-33 (for those who corrupt the societies by abusing the religion to make people kill each others in the name of God) and 5-38 (for those who inflect suffering on their victims by taking away their belongings)...The saver Punishment is a " "Let Those who know Arabic translate the above three words.
Hopefully now we can move to discuss the other three points that I disagree with free-minds.org understandings
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the mans guardianship (43), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Muta)...
n Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (2227-2, Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (1712, 936), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time
Or we can just discuss the Main Topic Issue (I prefer this choice) Should Free-minds.org adhere to doctrine (a unique understanding of the Quran) or not.
Peace
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belH salaam,
and why? what is the purpose of discussing these?
the conclusion will be the same, you will be right and free-minds will be wrong... so?
at least free-minds they wrote their intro page using a process of shura, you are just one individual,
and not the first one even... millions disagree, so?
free-minds encourage their members to learn arabic, even there is a copy of the Quran in Arabic on the site,
and articles and advice to access books, and many points of view, that cannot be a sect, you need
to understand first what a sect really means before using lightly that word.
Even sunnis they have different groups within them some worse than others, and some more sectists than others...
belH, razor sharpen your language...