Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Wow missed that one on the news ;D However, if we cut of his hand will this stop others? Very hard question to answer. I think taking his liberty away and taking his wealth away from him will make him deter from doing it again, but will this be an example for others to not try it ever again. Probably not! hmm But it does show that you can't get away from it and you will have to serve a punishment after all. I leave it to you experts in the field to come to a conclusion.
Peace
Peace,
Which is more harsher, Putting him in Jail for 150 years or Cutting his hands? In other words, which punishment would Medoff choose?
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Salaam BelH,
are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.
The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?
I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/
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Salaam BelH,
are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.
The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?
I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/
Peace,
First, what is your understanding of 5-33?
Second, As far as thieves punishment, the following are the assumptions that you need to take into consideration when arguing against my understanding of 5-38The Thief is the Person who refuses to Work to earn living; and
The thief is the person who is offered living assistance by the society, but he still likes to steal; and
The thief is the person whom was offered forgiveness before, but he is insisting in stealing
peace -
242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...
why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?
This is a good point.
Just like why it is not defined which part of this arm should be amputated. The word "hand"/ "yad" can be up to the elbowO ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows
(56)Or maybe it means they should be amputated up to the elbow?
What do you think, Belal and student of the quraan? Why do think it's just the hand? -
belH, salam,
please understand this is not a contest about who is going to reach first a conclusion regarding a matter or not...
this is simply about you, and other arabic muslims...
i am most certain, before even starting being able to read, in an arabic setting one is impregnated that a thief gets his hand chopped
off if he steals, so it is accepted as a fact, even if not practiced by the law, it is taken as the normal course to be taken.
so that is called being primed to accept something, or if you wish, being brain-washed, this is how Hitler brain-washed his citizens into believing they were a superior race unlike the other races, so after that it is easy to action laws...
i am afraid you and most "muslim" arabs are a victim of that and many other brain washing...
you still operate from some sunni filter, even if you will not admit it, in fact you can revert into sunnism quite easily...
i am quite impressed that you got convinced to change your qiblah to Jerusalem, most sunnis will never even if you skin them alive!
but that is another matter...
before any progress can be made, you need to stop using your past as a reference, even your signature comes from your past and is typically sunni (it is from sunni school of thought)...
to rebuild you cannot have pre-conceptions, past motives or ulterior motives... it is extremely hard... it is harsh... but the reward is Jenna...
you know if i were to believe in only one hadith, of all hadiths, it will be the one where the Prophet was reported to say that the Ummah will split into over 70 groups, only one will enter paradise... (but without the added three different versions which cannot all be true)...
now look at the history of mankind, and at the way they have run their affairs, and tell us, who when things get out of control starts running the show?
who likes turning people one against the other?
who likes to make things hardest for humans?
who has no respect, no compassion, no second thought, no feeling for human suffering?
who is the biggest thief, cannot create anything, steal from the many, gives to the few, controls and divides, and gives
the impression that he does it for the better good, and succeeds at it?
who manipulates opposing sides, making each one believe he is their friend, leading to utter destruction, and promising them
he will guarantee they will achieve their goal, but time after time they fail their goal, they turn to him for help, and he is not there
for them? and next time if they manage to survive like a bad pupil who never learns, they will make the same mistake and trust him again to advise them run their affairs...
if you know who this entity is, and i know you are not that stupid, you know full well, you will understand who wants Islam and the Muslims to be seen as blood thirsty barbarians, because they follow him too... Without knowing, the sunnis, shias, alaouis, sufis, christians, jews, atheists, etc are in fact the same sect, his sect but different colors and cosmetics.So belH congratulations carry on in his hizb with your wonderful 'ilm... you make him proud...
Peace,
First, what is your understanding of 5-33?
Second, As far as thieves punishment, the following are the assumptions that you need to take into consideration when arguing against my understanding of 5-38The Thief is the Person who refuses to Work to earn living; and
The thief is the person who is offered living assistance by the society, but he still likes to steal; and
The thief is the person whom was offered forgiveness before, but he is insisting in stealing
peace -
Salaam BelH,
you say a thief will not work, based on what? Thieves are often very industrious, take the modern bankers, or the government, or the legal system, they work extremely hard to steal as much as possible, would you hack off limbs in their case?
Thieves that are on drugs, also labour to gain their next fix, they will do whatever it takes.
When the establishment in control of the people, whether desired or not, exist as a criminal cabal, it is not surprising to see the lowest dregs of the social order copying the elite of society, who steal every penny they can from those around them.
I do not wish to hack off limbs, as you, I do not even wish to imprison them.
They should be judge on their actions, if for example those in the Government of the oligarchy, murder a million Iraqis, they should be executed as mass murderer, if they steal from those around them, they should have their assets removed to cover the theft, and if possible labour to repay any remainder.
If the sovereign powers were removed, the dregs of society would be removed with them, as they are a symptom of the disease.
The vast majority of the legal system works in the administration of drug abuse, the drugs are made and distributed by the sovereign powers, almost entirely, take Afghanistan, before the oligarchy arrived, there was no drug abuse, or drug production in that country, now it is the world leader in drug production, and drug abuse has become widespread.
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242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...
why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?
Is it really painful?
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salaam Abdun Nur
I do not think belH will understand what you mean.
or more precisely, he will feign not to understand it...
i speculate, but i guess him and guest are just here to glean info for you know who...
otherwise they are too stupid to be real...
or maybe i am too demanding and this is what we will keep on getting as samples from past brain washed
sunnis,
they are badly damaged insofar as thinking independently is concerned, but modulated with an ambiguity and
a fear to challenge core global issues...
so nah, details are easier for them to handle, talking to them about systemic problems is just a waste of breath,
they cannot think globally, and besides they live in the past anyways (in fact a manufactured version of the past)...Salaam BelH,
you say a thief will not work, based on what? Thieves are often very industrious, take the modern bankers, or the government, or the legal system, they work extremely hard to steal as much as possible, would you hack off limbs in their case?
Thieves that are on drugs, also labour to gain their next fix, they will do whatever it takes.
When the establishment in control of the people, whether desired or not, exist as a criminal cabal, it is not surprising to see the lowest dregs of the social order copying the elite of society, who steal every penny they can from those around them.
I do not wish to hack off limbs, as you, I do not even wish to imprison them.
They should be judge on their actions, if for example those in the Government of the oligarchy, murder a million Iraqis, they should be executed as mass murderer, if they steal from those around them, they should have their assets removed to cover the theft, and if possible labour to repay any remainder.
If the sovereign powers were removed, the dregs of society would be removed with them, as they are a symptom of the disease.
The vast majority of the legal system works in the administration of drug abuse, the drugs are made and distributed by the sovereign powers, almost entirely, take Afghanistan, before the oligarchy arrived, there was no drug abuse, or drug production in that country, now it is the world leader in drug production, and drug abuse has become widespread.
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Peace,
Which is more harsher, Putting him in Jail for 150 years or Cutting his hands? In other words, which punishment would Medoff choose?
Peace belH
Ok now he has a choice. I can not speak on his behalf but I am sure he wont be jailed for 150 years. If he chose his hand to be cut off some may say look his out after paying a cheap prize for his crime. Hence he still has his liberty. If he goes to jail for a lengthy time people may say look our tax money is going on him. He is having a good time in jail. Its a hard one to judge. Now consider this. How can you hurt or punish a person who is rich? I would say cut from his resources, a life change will be harsh for him.
Peace
Hope
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Peace all,
I would like to not discuss the Thief punishment issue further because it is off topic. My topic is very clear, which is If free-minds.org adheres to doctrine that represents a unique understanding of Quran that is different from others, then Free-minds.org is a Sect and not a Free-Minds Forum.
Moreover, Free-minds.org should translate the Quran "word by word" without feeding their own understanding into the translation, which would restricted the freedom of others to have their own understanding.Please always remember that because you were not a victim of a Criminal act before, you have no clue of the Suffering of those who were victims...the suffering that drove a Nation to go to wars with two countries...the suffering of a victims whom their life saving were stolen by a greedy rich man.
Because God knows the suffering of these victims, He Declared saver punishments for these criminals in 5-33 (for those who corrupt the societies by abusing the religion to make people kill each others in the name of God) and 5-38 (for those who inflect suffering on their victims by taking away their belongings)...The saver Punishment is a " "Let Those who know Arabic translate the above three words.
Hopefully now we can move to discuss the other three points that I disagree with free-minds.org understandings
In Islam, Monogamy is the basis for normal relationships, while polygamy is only allowed in cases involving marrying the mothers of orphans under the mans guardianship (43), Vs. Sunnis where a man may be a polygamist simply if he can afford to, and Shia which allow sex for pleasure (Muta)...
n Islam, Pilgrimage is a centre for gathering of nations and for all to witness the benefits of being together (2227-2, Vs. Sunni and Shia bringing in polytheistic rituals and superstition (touching of black stone, circling 7 times, etc..)...
In Islam, a Year is a luni-solar count made of 365-days (1712, 936), with all the seasons fitting-in-place Vs. Sunnis teaching it to be a lunar one based on 354 days which creates confusion of seasons and time
Or we can just discuss the Main Topic Issue (I prefer this choice) Should Free-minds.org adhere to doctrine (a unique understanding of the Quran) or not.
Peace
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belH salaam,
and why? what is the purpose of discussing these?
the conclusion will be the same, you will be right and free-minds will be wrong... so?
at least free-minds they wrote their intro page using a process of shura, you are just one individual,
and not the first one even... millions disagree, so?
free-minds encourage their members to learn arabic, even there is a copy of the Quran in Arabic on the site,
and articles and advice to access books, and many points of view, that cannot be a sect, you need
to understand first what a sect really means before using lightly that word.
Even sunnis they have different groups within them some worse than others, and some more sectists than others...
belH, razor sharpen your language... -
I would like to not discuss the Thief punishment issue further because it is off topic.
Or maybe because your arguement was beaten and you cannot counter others' arguements.
My topic is very clear, which is If free-minds.org adheres to doctrine that represents a unique understanding of Quran that is different from others, then Free-minds.org is a Sect and not a Free-Minds Forum.
The above is totally pathetic. Who are the "others" in your sentence "...difference from others" - you? Sunnis? Shias?
Please read 6116.Also, what do you mean with "free-minds.org is a sect". We are all members of this forum/site, and have different views from one another - how can we form/be a sect then?
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Also, what do you mean with "free-minds.org is a sect". We are all members of this forum/site, and have different views from one another - how can we form/be a sect then?
It is a sect because it doesn't promote any other existing sect so it must be a different sect itself. you people do not accept its a sect because you are jealous of my insightful views.
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Or maybe because your arguement was beaten and you cannot counter others' arguements.
To be beaten is what I was Hoping for so I can end this and change my understanding as I did with many other issues.
We can drag this forever if you wish...whoever, I need you to post new findings that can support your understanding.
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Peace Belh,
your opinion is just a human opinion, but this is The Creator of Heaven and Earth's Opinion
544 We have sent down the Torah, in it is a guidance and a light; the prophets who have submitted judged with it for those who are Jewish, and the Devotees, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of the Book of God, and they were witness over. So do not be concerned with the people but be concerned with Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters.
544It is not my opinion. It is an indisputable reality that the King James Bible or whatever Bible or parts of it you have in your hands is not the Torah. There is no agreement even amongst the Jews themselves about what the Torah is and yet you come here and arrogantly claim to have the original Torah. Unless you can specifically show the original Torah and prove that it is the original, then your opinion that the Bible or whatever parts of it is the Torah doesn't even reach the level of an educated human opinion. All your opinions on this matter are nothing but ignorance and the way you present them as the god's opinion and not your own further shows how ignorance, arrogance and lies feed off one another in the human imagination until the person has deluded themselves.
Peace,
Ayman
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Salam,
Sorry, but I never heard this before;
So why do you then keep arguing?
the Verb meaning stays the same and the action would change based on the proceeding words (e.g., cut the Hand, cut the Road, Cut the Job, Cut the Air supply)...The verb in 5-33 and 5-38 iare constructed as follow
= + + +
= +Both words has the Root Word
In 5-33 it means "Shall Cut"
In 5-38 it means "You Shall Cut"I will give you an example to start you on your way...I expect that you look-up the rest rather than wasting everyones time by arguing in circles when so many answers and so much information has already been given.
Qata alshajara = he cut/severed the tree
Qatta alshajara = he cut-up the treeThe 1st example is open for a choice of meaning depending on context.
The 2nd example is not open for a choice of meaning and can only be a phsyical cutting/cutting-up.Such is the difference between 533 and 538.
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Peace Belh,
It is not my opinion. It is an indisputable reality that the King James Bible or whatever Bible or parts of it you have in your hands is not the Torah. There is no agreement even amongst the Jews themselves about what the Torah is and yet you come here and arrogantly claim to have the original Torah. Unless you can specifically show the original Torah and prove that it is the original, then your opinion that the Bible or whatever parts of it is the Torah doesn't even reach the level of an educated human opinion. All your opinions on this matter are nothing but ignorance and the way you present them as the god's opinion and not your own further shows how ignorance, arrogance and lies feed off one another in the human imagination until the person has deluded themselves.
Peace,
Ayman
I challenge you and anyone in this forum to provide a Single Verse that says The Torah and Injeel are corrupted or will be...
1856 And We do not send the messengers except as bearers of good news and warners. But those who reject will argue using falsehood to overshadow the truth with it. And they took My revelations and what they have been warned by for mockery!
1856It is indisputable fact, in Torah and Injeel, that Abraham had two wives...If you want to disbelieve, then it is your choice.
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It is indisputable fact, in Torah and Injeel, that Abraham had two wives...
Where does the Injiyl say that Ibrahiym had two wives?
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Belal,
I would like to add one more thing to the theif issue Let's say a thief stole 100,000 dollars and from you and your laptop and then the thief spends the money and uses the laptop. Would you rather have his hands butchered or have your belongings back/compensation?
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Peace all,
Qata alshajara = he cut/severed the tree
Qatta alshajara = he cut-up the treeCan you show me an example from Quran where "the Verb + proceeding word" change in meaning based on the Context.
And as I told you and everyone who wants to use 12-75 as punishment for Thief, you are promoting "Slavery", because that was the Punishment in 12-75.
