Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.

nimnimak_11

author=belH link=topic=9599207.msg227657#msg227657 date=1255882389]

My desire, which might dislike certain sever laws of 5-33 & 5-38, is irrelevant when showing the True meanings of God's Messages to the people. Here what would happen to any one who seeks to twist the established meanings of the laws in order to gain the acceptance of his community's cultural and Laws

Our logic about 5-38 punishment is based on the known human rights laws, however, if such laws would change, we would change with it...But does that mean we should change the message of our Lord? Our logic is incomparable to Our Lord's...Our Logic mostly reflects our desire

peace

You say your desire but that's not what i'm talking about. I spoke of reason and logic. They are seperate from desire. For example My desire is to eat more food but my reason tells me i've already had too much. They are completely different are they not?

Desire is more based on pleasure. Reason and logic are based on getting to the truth. With the food example my reason and logic know the truth, my desire may be different.

I acknowledge that sometimes we do not know all truths however

Let's consider your method to this situation (please forgive if my understanding of your method is wrong and correct me)

Ultimately does it not come down to the following when you judge an issue?

Your interpretation is very likely correct. Let's say 99.9% or even dare you think 100% correct thus ignore reason (not desire)
your reason is strongly telling you not to do this thus should you wait untill better understanding from the Quran or wait untill it is shown to you in knowledge or experience that upholding a certain issue is the truth.

YOU END UP WEIGHTING THE STRENGTH OF YOUR INTERPRETATION AGAINST THE STRENGTH OF YOUR REASON.

on the one hand, you do not possess knowledge of everything and thus your reason may be wrong but equally you do not possess 100% understanding of the topic in the Quran because equally your reason is limited also.

Don't forget that you used your reason and logic (not desire) to acknowledge the Quran to be divine (truth) Now when you come to understand it should you not give those faculties of getting to the truth a higher priority?

And they nearly diverted you from what We inspired to you so that you would fabricate something different against Us, and then they would have taken you as a friend!
1773

And if We had not made you stand firm, you were about to lean towards them a little bit.
1774

Then, We would have made you taste double the retribution in this life and double the retribution in death. And then you would not find for yourself any victor against Us.
1775

You must understand that i'm not doing this to conform with today's society. If today's society acknoweledged amputation of the hand of thieves make no mistake i would strongly protest against it. For the faculties that God have given me protest against it.

I am uncertain with respect to the relevance of these verses of the Quran which you have quoted but know if you are applying them to free-minds or me as an individual, they can also apply to you.

You should know that i will think of you as a friend regardless of your beliefs provided that they do not clash with you righteousness (compassion, mercy, bravery etc)

If you believe in the amputation then it's concerning because TO CARRY IT OUT, goes again those attributes of righteousness. But as you have not carried such acts out (as far as i know D) Then i consider you a friend in which we disagree on a topic group

Our logic about 5-38 punishment is based on the known human rights laws, however, if such laws would change, we would change with it...But does that mean we should change the message of our Lord? Our logic is incomparable to Our Lord's...Our Logic mostly reflects our desire

I disagree with how you've concluded this. Please read the following carefully and reflect on it

You say our logic is based on human rights laws but our reason and logic have resulted in human rights laws and their bettering. They did not come out of nowehere nor did they just come from someone's desire. Reason and logic is what God gave us to get to the truth with and we are converging towards the truth constantly with respect to human rights.

This is what happens when we ignore our facluties of reasoning in favour of interpretations

In iran, There are cases of women being stoned to death as that is their understanding of Islam (from "obey God and obey the messenger" they reason that they must follow the hadith and sunnah where as in reality they are ignoring their reason)

Most people in Iran are against stoning including the very religious shias. They are prepared to say that that was a practice in those times to avoid such a barbaric act (I base this statement on people i have talked to) however there are also those who decide to be commited more to their belief or interpretations rather than their reason. I wonder if the Quran's meaning of follow their desires applies to these people. I cannot be sure but i think it is. Perhaps desire= the ignoring of your reason and logic for something else. Would you not think that shias or strict sunnis are following their desires?

Our logic and knowledge is as you say incomparible to our Lord's but he gave us them to converge to the truth in all matters including FOLLOWING and understanding THE QURAN.

2371 And if the truth were to follow their desires, then the heavens and the earth and all who are in them would have been corrupted. No, We have come to them with their reminder, but from their reminder they are turning away.
2371

You've concluded that our logic is based on desire. I wonder if you think the same of heart and reason

How could we become corrupt if we were to follow our HEART REASON AND LOGIC without deceiving them?
on the other hand you've seen how people become corrupt from ignoring these faculties.

Let me know if you still think logic to be desire or logic as a bad thing.

guest

Peace,

The followings quotes in red are inappropriate understanding of Joseph?s story. The persons who support these understanding are truly ignorant. They have strayed too far away from the straight path. They have brains with which they do not think. Rationales for my position are provided below the quotes.

There is no thief in this story. Therefore, there is no lesson for punishing a thief. The plot of Joseph was reveled to his brother as evident in 1269. Therefore, his brother did not suffer the crime of false accusation thus Joseph is free of wrongdoing.

The following is from (quotes in red)
http//www.geocities.com/islamicdiscussions/theft.htm

?First, the presumed thieves were given the chance to come forward, acknowledge their wrongdoing, and then give back what they have stolen. They might even get a reward/or state compensation if it is found that they stole out of dire need and poverty.?

The above statement is misleading and illogical. Theft is premeditated crime, they want to make good on the ill gotten loot. Why would they come forward to admit the guilt and risked being punished? This does not make sense at all. Actually this defies common sense. Suggesting reward for stealing is same as encouraging stealing i.e. go to the market and steal whatever you want and if the owner realizes that something is missing and ask for it then give it back otherwise its free. What a deal! Is this God?s system or is it the talk of misguided ignorant people? And there is no such thing as ?dire need and poverty? under God?s system. If you establish God?s system you are guaranteed unlimited amount of sustenance and blessings from the God.

?Second, if they do not do so, they must be proven as thieves. Then, what was stolen, if found, should be restituted to their owners. Thieves should work to repay the fees involved in the whole process. They should also work to repay what was stolen in case they do not give it or the whole of it back.?

The above quote suggest that we must hold people illegally (without any evidence) so that illegal search can be conducted on good people to determine guilt or innocence. This is really awful and contrary 4912 ? ?O you who believe, you shall avoid any suspicion, for even a little bit of suspicion is sinful. You shall not spy on one another, nor shall you backbite one another; this is as abominable as eating the flesh of your dead brother. You certainly abhor this. You shall observe GOD. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful.? And they claim that this is God?s system. These people will do Muslims a great favor if they stop writing about God!!!

?This process put in application the theft punishment stated in 538 that is to cut off from the thieves? resources and power. It leaves also the door open for thieves to repent and reform as God states in 539. This whole process is what is applied to thieves in some Muslim rural areas.?

538 says to cut off the hands of thief only when a charge has been filed by the victim. If the victim forgives then there is no cutting off of hands. The above quote is suggesting cutting off head and both hands because both head and hands (resources) are used for stealing. They are wrong on the repentance issue as well. The God is saying that if the thief repents after the hands have been cut off then he can enter the heaven but if he doesn?t then a far worst awaits for him in the hereafter. The off with the hands is humiliation of this world.

?Had Joseph known that God's punishment for theft is marking or cutting hands (which his brothers would have apply), he would not scheme that way in order to keep his brother with him.?

This is nonsense. If the plot did not go well then Joseph would have disclose the plot to save his brother. Plus he was certain that the plot will work because it was supported by God.

?Someone would argue that was God's theft law for previous communities and we are not bound by it. Well, when God wants to change something, He specifies it (2187). Furthermore, Quran specifies when some laws do apply only for some communities (1611 and therefore we are not bound to apply them.?

It would take a screwed up mind to come up with this kind of argument scheme. There is no theft or theft law in Joseph?s story.

?So, in conclusion we see that because of the 4 reasons mentioned above and the example of Joseph and his brothers in the Quran we conclude that the punishment for theft is to take away the resources and power of the thief and make him pay back all the cost to the person whose goods he stole. However, if he repents (539) Allah forgives him.?

This is the case of garbage in/garbage out rule. See explanation above for why the quotes in red are garbage. And please stop writing bad things about God.

guest

belH salam
invoking Allah's curse on your family is a very foolish thing to do, what have they done to deserve this? even if you phrased it in a very clever way?

Peace professor Nabster,

I can understand this being problematic for you because of what you are. We know your character too from your nonsense writing. Allah?s curse will not go well with you. Actually it doesn?t work for any bad people period. That?s why you are trying to compromise with belH. Let me tell you this invoking Allah?s curse is welcomed by people who speak the TRUTH.

noble

Peace guest
of course bad people are those who argue against you...
for your record, i do not wish to compromise with people like you,
i wish to keep away from people like you...
there is nothing more abhorrent to me than the arrogant...

Peace professor Nabster,

I can understand this being problematic for you because of what you are. We know your character too from your nonsense writing. Allah?s curse will not go well with you. Actually it doesn?t work for any bad people period. That?s why you are trying to compromise with belH. Let me tell you this invoking Allah?s curse is welcomed by people who speak the TRUTH.

guest

Salaam BelH,

are you happy to feed, cloth, house and generally support this now disabled thief, once you hack off hands it makes them a burden upon the community for the rest of their lives, if you have plenty of thieves better have plenty of spare room at your house, I say that because you must take responsibility for your own actions, no matter how insane.

The same would apply to imprisoning them, the cost of feeding, securing, housing, clothing, etc., another irrational approach, both based on revenge, do you really think revenge is Islamic?

I would again suggest you read http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/72/102/

Peace,

Very immature thinking (mind). The God is the one who feed, cloth, house........

belH

peace

You say your desire but that's not what i'm talking about. I spoke of reason and logic.

Peace,
I used the word desire to translate the following "Our limited Logic Vs God's".
Example of Human Logic Moses Logic Vs God's

1867

So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him knowledge from Us.
1865

1866 Moses said to him Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?
1866

1867 He said You will not be able to have patience with me. (Moses Logic is Weak To Comprehend God's)
1867

1868 And how can you be patient about that which you have not been given any news?
1868

1869 He said You will find me, God willing, to be patient. And I will not disobey any command of yours.
1869

1870 He said If you follow me, then do not ask about anything until I relate it to you.
1870

So they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. He said Have you made a hole in it to drown its people? You have done something dreadful!
1871

1872 He said Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
1872

1873 He said Forgive me for what I forgot, and do not be hard upon my request with you.
1873

1874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!
1874

1875 He said Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
1875

1876 He said if I ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me in your company. You will then have a reason over me.
1876

1877 So they ventured forth until they came to the people of a town. They requested food from its people but they refused to host them. Then they found a wall which was close to collapsing, so he built it. He said If you had wished, you could have asked a wage for it!
1877

As you can see from the above, our logic can be weak when understanding God's Laws...Even the Angels have broven that their Logic is Not Cabaple to grasp God's Wisdom

230 And your Lord said to the angels I am placing a successor on the earth. They said Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You? He said I know what you do not know.
230

I hope I cleared the Misunderstanding.

Peace

guest

Quote from RasulHamsa on October 16, 2009, 084436 PM
242 (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes...

why in 538 it doesn't say cut 1or 2 hands of each of them?

This is a good point.
Just like why it is not defined which part of this arm should be amputated. The word "hand"/ "yad" can be up to the elbow

O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows
(56)

Or maybe it means they should be amputated up to the elbow?
What do you think, Belal and student of the quraan? Why do think it's just the hand?

Peace,

This is a BAD point. The Quran forbids this kind of questioning i.e. do not question God's wisdom. Pay no attention to these people until they repent and reform.

267 - Moses said to his people, "GOD commands you to sacrifice a heifer." They said, "Are you mocking us?" He said, "GOD forbid, that I should behave like the ignorant ones."

268 - They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one." He said, "He says that she is a heifer that is neither too old, nor too young; of an intermediate age. Now, carry out what you are commanded to do."

269 - They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us her color." He said, "He says that she is a yellow heifer, bright colored, pleases the beholders."

270 - They said, "Call upon your Lord to show us which one. The heifers look alike to us and, GOD willing, we will be guided."

271 - He said, "He says that she is a heifer that was never humiliated in plowing the land or watering the crops; free from any blemish." They said, "Now you have brought the truth." They finally sacrificed her, after this lengthy reluctance.

615 - Recall that Moses said to his people, "O my people, why do you hurt me, even though you know that I am GOD's messenger to you?" When they deviated, GOD diverted their hearts. For GOD does not guide the wicked people.

2247 - Their prophet said to them, "GOD has appointed Taloot (Saul) to be your king." They said, "How can he have kingship over us when we are more worthy of kingship than he; he is not even rich?" He said, "GOD has chosen him over you, and has blessed him with an abundance in knowledge and in body." GOD grants His kingship to whomever He wills. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient.

guest

Also, what do you mean with "free-minds.org is a sect". We are all members of this forum/site, and have different views from one another - how can we form/be a sect then?

Peace,

free-minds.org is a sect because it is breaking up the monotheistic teaching of Quran into a group that believes in hearsay (hadith) produced by some forum members via mistranslation of Quranic verses. Some of these hadith is being discussed on this thread.

Key Criticism If you read the posting rules by Layth, you will find he forbids insulting (direct or indirect) one another on the forum. But he does no such thing for the God i.e. you can write all the bad things you want about God without any consequence. THIS IS NOT THE GOD?S SYSTEM. Please look at the punishment in the Quran for blaspheming God within His system. This rule has not been enforced in the forum and that says it all.

Another God?s rule is eye for an eye. Of course forgiveness is superior. If someone insults you first then you have the rights to insult him back. This is God?s law. The first insulter is the transgressor. Therefore, he should be punished and not the one insulting back. I go by the God?s rule. For doing this I got permanent band notice from a moderator. And that is wrong and unquranic. The moderator should be reformed.

guest

Belal,

I would like to add one more thing to the theif issue Let's say a thief stole 100,000 dollars and from you and your laptop and then the thief spends the money and uses the laptop. Would you rather have his hands butchered or have your belongings back/compensation?

Peace,

If the thief is caught red-handed then the punishment is clear if the victim so desire. It?s that simple.

Now, the question to you is WHY DO YOU FEEL SO SYMPATHETIC TOWARDS MISGUIDED, DISBELIEVING, ROTTEN THIEF? Would you like to be his friend? Do you have any sympathy for the victim?

nimnimak_11

peace Belh

I used the word desire to translate the following "Our limited Logic Vs God's".

I think i understand your position on logic but desire is different. Our knowledge is limited in comparison to God's but that does not make it a desire.
You havn't addressed my question to you of wether reason and heart are also a desire or not. Please address this.

Example of Human Logic Moses Logic Vs God's