Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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peace Belh
I used the word desire to translate the following "Our limited Logic Vs God's".
I think i understand your position on logic but desire is different. Our knowledge is limited in comparison to God's but that does not make it a desire.
You havn't addressed my question to you of wether reason and heart are also a desire or not. Please address this.Example of Human Logic Moses Logic Vs God's
1867
So they came upon a servant of Ours whom We had given him mercy from Us and We had taught him knowledge from Us.
18651866 Moses said to him Can I follow you so that you will teach me from the guidance you have been taught?
18661867 He said You will not be able to have patience with me. (Moses Logic is Weak To Comprehend God's)
18671868 And how can you be patient about that which you have not been given any news?
18681869 He said You will find me, God willing, to be patient. And I will not disobey any command of yours.
18691870 He said If you follow me, then do not ask about anything until I relate it to you.
1870So they ventured forth until they rode in a boat and he made a hole in it. He said Have you made a hole in it to drown its people? You have done something dreadful!
18711872 He said Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
18721873 He said Forgive me for what I forgot, and do not be hard upon my request with you.
18731874 So they ventured forth until they came upon a youth, and he killed him. He said Have you killed an innocent person without justice? You have done something awful!
18741875 He said Did I not tell you that you will not be able to have patience with me?
18751876 He said if I ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me in your company. You will then have a reason over me.
18761877 So they ventured forth until they came to the people of a town. They requested food from its people but they refused to host them. Then they found a wall which was close to collapsing, so he built it. He said If you had wished, you could have asked a wage for it!
1877I'm glad you brought this up. IMO if you look closely there are some serious issues and misunderstanding with your example
- You say Moses logic VS God's. How can you say that? is Moses with God on that boat??? Perhaps your example is to show a less superior logic to a more superior one. Am I right?
But then again
- The story is not about a flaw in the logic of moses nor a flaw in his reason nor heart nor a less superior logic. From my understanding, THE KEY POINT of the story WAS THE LACKING KNOWLEDGE of moses in this case. Once he (the servant) explained why he did those actions, THEY WERE ACCEPTED BY THE LOGIC OF MOSES. They would be accepted by our logic as well!
He didn't increase or better moses's logic IMO. He increased his wisdom and knowledge by teaching him that whilst something may look bad, it may not be.
LOGIC, REASON AND HEART ARE NOT DESIRE. IMO going against them is.
As you can see from the above, our logic can be weak when understanding God's Laws...Even the Angels have broven that their Logic is Not Cabaple to grasp God's Wisdom
You have failed to show that with that example. Our logic has been a great tool gifted to us by God and they have been very effective in understanding God's laws. Please prove me wrong if you think otherwise.
230 And your Lord said to the angels I am placing a successor on the earth. They said Will You place in it he who would make corruption in it, and spill blood; while we praise by Your glory, and exalt to You? He said I know what you do not know.
230I hope I cleared the Misunderstanding.
Another Good example showing a lack of knowledge not a flaw in logic
The angels do not have knowledge of the future (as far as i know) thus they don't know what the ultimate outcome of our creation will be. If our creation would have purely resulted in corruption and bloodshed ALONE, then our creation would have been illogical. Thus God says to the Angels, I know what you do not know which shows that there is ultimately a logically good outcome of our creation but the angels are not aware of this.
Similar to the servant with moses, he knew what moses did not. But once the knowledge was given to him his logic accepted it.
Do you still think we should amputate the hand's of thieves considering your HEART, REASON and LOGIC?
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Peace,
If the thief is caught red-handed then the punishment is clear if the victim so desire. It?s that simple.
Now, the question to you is WHY DO YOU FEEL SO SYMPATHETIC TOWARDS MISGUIDED, DISBELIEVING, ROTTEN THIEF? Would you like to be his friend? Do you have any sympathy for the victim?
WOW
Where's all the hatred coming from? and what happened to compassion!!!!?????
I don't like thieves but i can't call them MISGUIDED, DISBELIEVINGAND and ROTTEN untill i know them all which is impossible. -
Peace,
Finally, 1275 only has slavery to your mindset (the same mind that wants to force a double amputation for theft!). Joseph held his brother in custody for the alleged theft - he did not own him (slavery is never permitted in the Quran).
Peace Layth,
Let?s use an example to analyze your faulty premise inherent in the above quote
A thief steals someone?s unmarried 19 years old girl and abuses her at will against her consent. Then the father catches the thief along with her daughter. The thief is in father?s possession. Now, do you expect the father to feed the thief, provide clothing, read bedtime stories,??. or should the father release the thief because he got his daughter back. Is this what you are advocating? Please enlighten us with your prescribed form of punishment in this case. Thanks!
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WOW
Where's all the hatred coming from? and what happened to compassion!!!!?????
I don't like thieves but i can't call them MISGUIDED, DISBELIEVINGAND and ROTTEN untill i know them all which is impossible.Peace,
And what will you call them after you find them to be true thieves?
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peace Belh
Do you still think we should amputate the hand's of thieves considering your HEART, REASON and LOGIC?
Peace,
The answer is very simple. You use your heart, reason and logic which equates to the innermost thought to find God and the Quran. After that you ?hear and obey?. Your dilemma is you haven?t fully accepted the God (Allah) and the Quran yet.
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Peace,
A thief steals someone?s unmarried 19 years old girl and abuses her at will against her consent. Then the father catches the thief along with her daughter. The thief is in father?s possession. Now, do you expect the father to feed the thief, provide clothing, read bedtime stories,??. or should the father release the thief because he got his daughter back. Is this what you are advocating? Please enlighten us with your prescribed form of punishment in this case. Thanks!
This is getting ridiculous - since when have people become objects that can be stolen like common goods!
You have 2 crimes here
- Kidnapping
- Rape
For the 1st crime, the punishment is equivalence - so a prison term will suffice (16126)
For the 2nd crime, the punishment is prison or to be punished severely (1225) -
peace Belh
I think i understand your position on logic but desire is different. Our knowledge is limited in comparison to God's but that does not make it a desire.
Peace,
Only it is a desire when our logic limits us from accepting God's orders that we cannot comprehend. An example, the Logic of many members in this forum limiting them from accepting the Virgin Birth of Jesus...Is their understanding a Logic or what? (choose the English word that you think it suits their faulty understanding).
- You say Moses logic VS God's. How can you say that? is Moses with God on that boat??? Perhaps your example is to show a less superior logic to a more superior one. Am I right?
The Person, who was teaching Moses, was following God's orders (hence, it was not his own Logic).
Our logic has been a great tool gifted to us by God and they have been very effective in understanding God's laws. Please prove me wrong if you think otherwise.
Our Logic can be sound or Faulty...Think of why Humans are always in disagreement (their Logic not agreeing) with each others in many issues, including religion?
Similar to the servant with moses, he knew what moses did not. But once the knowledge was given to him his logic accepted it.
Absolutely!! However, not all the time knowledge is given to us...Just imagine if Moses was lift in the Dark, not knowing the wisdom behind the actions he witnessed.
Do you still think we should amputate the hand's of thieves considering your HEART, REASON and LOGIC?
As I said before, the reason of this thread is to show the True Translation of 5-38, which free-minds.org deliberately twisted.
I think Thieves today suffer sever punishment than 5-38 when throwing in Jail for 10, 20, or even 150 years, as in the case of Medoff.I would appreciate it if more discussion in this subject would end...I think I have posted all what I have about this topic.
Peace
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Peace,
If the thief is caught red-handed then the punishment is clear if the victim so desire. It?s that simple.
Now, the question to you is WHY DO YOU FEEL SO SYMPATHETIC TOWARDS MISGUIDED, DISBELIEVING, ROTTEN THIEF? Would you like to be his friend? Do you have any sympathy for the victim?
If I would go by the Quran under a muslim state, I would cut from his resources, since I cannot cut his three or more hands.
The way you talk about thiefs is pretty harsh. Judging by your mindset it is not unusual to see you wanting to chop off his hands. God, on the other hand, is forgiving and compassionate
539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing, and reforms, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
BTW, your question "would you like to be his friend?" is irrelevant, and shows that you should never think of becoming a judge. It also shows that you go by your feelings, rather than the law and case at hand.
1854 We have cited in this Quran every kind of example for the people, but the human being is, above all else, always given to contention.
A thief steals someone?s unmarried 19 years old girl and abuses her at will against her consent. Then the father catches the thief along with her daughter. The thief is in father?s possession. Now, do you expect the father to feed the thief, provide clothing, read bedtime stories,??. or should the father release the thief because he got his daughter back. Is this what you are advocating? Please enlighten us with your prescribed form of punishment in this case. Thanks!
Now you're mixing rape and theft to make the crime (look) more serious, and play more with emotions and thus try to show that cutting from resources is not a sufficient punishment for the crime (or rather the crimes that you have presented), and chopping off hands is - nice way of trying to decieve people!
242 Do not obscure the truth with falsehood, nor keep the truth secret while you know.
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Peace,
This is getting ridiculous - since when have people become objects that can be stolen like common goods!
You have 2 crimes here
- Kidnapping
- Rape
For the 1st crime, the punishment is equivalence - so a prison term will suffice (16126)
For the 2nd crime, the punishment is prison or to be punished severely (1225)Peace,
OK, when someone is kidnapped and forcefully removed one of his kidneys and sold it to rich people for profit and transplant in another person. This is stealing human organs. In this case, what is your punishment?
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Peace,
OK, when someone is kidnapped and forcefully removed one of his kidneys and sold it to rich people for profit and transplant in another person. This is stealing human organs. In this case, what is your punishment?
Are you sure that everything is alright with you?
Make a coffee for yourself, sit down and relax - that's what you need the most right now, instead of coming up with these crazy theft theories!
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thanks at least you made me laugh this time
i was quite depressed
your comment is a bit like those spoof horror movies ;D
but still you do need psychiatric help you know that, lithium maybe? an anti-psychotic too...
get well soonPeace,
OK, when someone is kidnapped and forcefully removed one of his kidneys and sold it to rich people for profit and transplant in another person. This is stealing human organs. In this case, what is your punishment?
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Make a coffee for yourself, sit down and relax - that's what you need the most right now, instead of coming up with these crazy theft theories!
I will even make the scenario more interesting for you. The thief cuts off the kidnapped persons hands off (two of them). Then what do you do to this thief?
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thanks at least you made me laugh this time
i was quite depressed
your comment is a bit like those spoof horror movies ;D
but still you do need psychiatric help you know that, lithium maybe? an anti-psychotic too...
get well soonPeace professor Nabster,
Human organ stealing is going on in the third world countries. This is not just a horror movies anymore.
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rotfl rotfl rotfl
dude are you into gory stuff or what...
laugh
here in the UK some feral youth will stab you just because you look at them the "wrong" way...
i am for the return of capital punishment, but you know why there is no capital punishment in so many
western countries now ...
let us see if you are that bright Mr guest... -
I will even make the scenario more interesting for you. The thief cuts off the kidnapped persons hands off (two of them). Then what do you do to this thief?
nope I recommend you to get some help - I'm worried about you.
Anyways, the crime then becomes theft, kidnapping and mayhem, hence we cannot apply the punishment described in 538.
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and grievous bodily harm (uk term)
i don't think taking away someone's organs can be considered as theft though...nope I recommend you to get some help - I'm worried about you.
Anyways, the crime then becomes theft, kidnapping and mayhem, hence we cannot apply the punishment described in 538.
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I will even make the scenario more interesting for you. The thief cuts off the kidnapped persons hands off (two of them). Then what do you do to this thief?
I would say an eye for an eye, and teeth for teeth rotfl
Actually it apply perfectly to the example you mentioned )
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yep we are in agreement, qasas it is, an eye for an eye, so hands cut off, and kidney given back or taken off + compensation for pain inflicted (but all this still has nothing to do with theft btw)...
538 in my understanding is theft of inanimate objects... the taking of hostages is dealt elsewhere I would have thought...I would say an eye for an eye, and teeth for teeth rotfl
Actually it apply perfectly to the example you mentioned )
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If I would go by the Quran under a muslim state, I would cut from his resources, since I cannot cut his three or more hands.
Please define ?his resources?. And don?t forget the option when the thief has no other resource except his mind and body. Now, don?t let me wait for the definition too long. As for the ?three or more hands?, that is your fabrication or your adaption of someone else?s fabrication.
The way you talk about thiefs is pretty harsh. Judging by your mindset it is not unusual to see you wanting to chop off his hands. God, on the other hand, is forgiving and compassionate
You forgot the most important attributes of the God JUSTICE (best)
539 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing, and reforms, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Compassionate.
I have already explained 539; perhaps you don?t want to take heed.
For the disbeliever humiliation in this world and far worst waits for them in the hereafter. If they (thief) reform after the hands has been cut off then they don?t suffer the far worst in the hereafter.BTW, your question "would you like to be his friend?" is irrelevant, and shows that you should never think of becoming a judge. It also shows that you go by your feelings, rather than the law and case at hand.
Likewise you should not write about the God. You are a misleader.
