A Challenge to all Arab Linguists arround the Globe
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Dear Anwar, thanks again for your reply and patience with an ignorant like me. But what you have said so far about grammatical break down. It only changes this part of 9619 from my original "as a matter of fact, not be, who is in a state of submission " to this " not at all be one who is in state of submission/submitting" or if one were to be more explicit "not at all you be him (who) is submitting/ in submission".. Although, with this translation one is ignoring Laa that follows after, Kalla.
Badar
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Peace,
Dear Anwar, thanks again for your reply and patience with an ignorant like me. But what you have said so far about grammatical break down. It only changes this part of 9619 from my original "as a matter of fact, not be, who is in a state of submission " to this " not at all be one who is in state of submission/submitting" or if one were to be more explicit "not at all you be him (who) is submitting/ in submission".. Although, with this translation one is ignoring Laa that follows after, Kalla.
Badar
There is nothing wrong with not knowing, as long as you know you do not know and try to learn. I applaud you for trying to learn. I also would not try translating with such a limited knowledge of Arabic. I"m not sure why you need to use the word 'submit' but as you know, that word is not there. Obey and submit have similar connotations but they are not the same word. I also do not know where you are getting the 'not at all'. Why can you not accept the more accurate translation of 'Do not obey him' ?
Godbless,
Anwar -
Dear Anwer, thanks again. Here is relavant page of Lane's lexicon for your review. This will help you to understand meanings of as submission, as well first concept given.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000176.pdf
In my humble opinion, it is more important to understand the correct meanings and concepts of words of AlKitab, than intricacies of Arabic grammar. In fact the point of this exercise was to bring this very point out to wider audiences.
On the note of reciprocity of learning. Please consider and try to understand this. The word is actually . Please try to find out how come?
Peace.
Badar
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If one were to understand that is not a proper name. Instead it represents a phrase consisting of as a contraction of followed by and finally , rest becomes much easier to understand. Would be translated in English (One) who is not illah (God, illah, a proper name of Pagan Arab God).
Badar
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Dear Anwer, thanks again. Here is relavant page of Lane's lexicon for your review. This will help you to understand meanings of as submission, as well first concept given.
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000176.pdf
In my humble opinion, it is more important to understand the correct meanings and concepts of words of AlKitab, than intricacies of Arabic grammar. In fact the point of this exercise was to bring this very point out to wider audiences.
On the note of reciprocity of learning. Please consider and try to understand this. The word is actually . Please try to find out how come?
Peace.
Thanks for the reference to Lane's. I didn't know it could be directly translated as to become submissive as well. I mean it's not far off from 'being obedient' and some of those sources prefer obedience to orders than obedience in character. But I guess both can be implied, and that is fine. But you see the meaning of obedience there as well, so I hope you are not trying to pick one meaning over another. Both are correct meanings of this word used in the Quran. The intracacies of Arabic grammar will help you to understand the Quran better you cannot make a choice of either or. You need it all. I'm not sure what you think you were trying to put out to a wider audience, but whatever, I don't even want to get into that.
Also what is the connection you are trying to make between and ? I haven't found the second one in the dictionary yet. I'll look harder. The only thing I can think of is waw, dal, 'ain. So if you said 'Do not let/ Do not deposit, Do not leave off, Do not cease/skip/omit.' You would say . But again what are you trying to get at?
Godbless,
AnwarBadar
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The said, ?We have listened, and we have refused to accept? {Refer 293}
And they say, ?We have listened, and we have refused to accept? {Refer 446}
And they said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 2285}
And if they had said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 446}
When you said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 507}
That they respond/say, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 2451}
And you people listen and you people accept ? {Refer 6416}
The basic perception is to accept what is told. This is to believe in what is told. It is accepting it as true when some thing is told. Those who accept respond by expressing their acceptance or by the nod of head in affirmative. And those who do not accept what is told, they either refuse bluntly, or express their non acceptance by just turning away and departure.
You, the Messenger pronounce, ?You people accept the word of Allah and the Messenger.
For reason {gesture of refusal] you people turn away, in such case indeed Allah does not like those who refuse to accept .{Refer 332}
Whosoever listened and accepted the word of the Messenger, for reason {He is communicating nothing but word of Allah} he certainly accepted word of Allah.
And whoever turned away since We have not sent you as a guard upon them.{Refer 480}
Root of is and basic perception is to accept something wholeheartedly, by will without any external pressure/force/fear/compulsion.
{Refer 238}
comes after it, to follow exactly in the manner told, without there being interference from third party. Nothing should be in between what is being followed. To physically move, on footprints, act exactly on the line accepted. One has a theoretical aspect while the other has practical aspect/connotation. It means translating into action what was accepted.For Urdu speaking friends, here is a 21 page complete article.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/21/slides/1.html -
Dear Anwer, In classic Arabic and Dal are interchangable. Hence, 9619 I am understanding as
Surah 96 19
As a matter of fact, do not be, with those who are in a state of subjugation and lowly; by lowering heads (in subservience) and because of this getting scarce and limited, with respect of means and resources, from me.However, and have similar meanings, hence the question if is actualy IV form of with written in place of . Anyhow for now I have used root until more confimation of this principle.
I have almost finished translating Sura 96, will share soon, then 9619 will make more sense.
Peace.
Badar
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Dear Brother Anwer, I would like to thank you again for your participation in the discussion. It is also my request to you; that if you were to join hands with us in the cause of enhancing understanding of AlKitab. It would be a great pleasure as well a tremandous help.
Peace, may Rubb bless you.
Badar
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Dear Anwer, In classic Arabic and Dal are interchangable.
And where did you get this idea from?
It is also my request to you; that if you were to join hands with us in the cause of enhancing understanding of AlKitab. It would be a great pleasure as well a tremandous help.
Peace, may Rubb bless you.
I hope I have been doing that, am doing that now and continue to do it. May our lord also bless you as well.
Godbless,
Anwar -
And where did you get this idea from?
I hope I have been doing that, am doing that now and continue to do it. May our lord also bless you as well.
Godbless,
AnwarAnwer
It is a very strange thing that a person who knows arabic (Probably the only person on this forum who knows some arabic) is involved in such a ???? type of discussion ?
Regards -
And where did you get this idea from?
Dear Anwer, from here,
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000005.pdf
as well please see here
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000104.pdf
Please just review description of Dal and Tay as alphabets.
Peace and Rubb bless you and all.
Badar
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Peace,
Badar. The second link is interesting, but I am sure this only applies for those few words and may have a connection to idgham. you will find words that contain letters that are close soundwise (and in the position of the mouth) every once in a while being as synonyms. The first link you gave me is a definite explanation of idgham, something you might want to do more research on (this is also called assimilation in English and explains who letters affect the sound of other letters that follow or precede them). Extrapolating that the taw and dal are interchangeable is definitely a far reach. I would do some more research on idgham before making any more conclusions like this.
Q_Student,
I understand your point competely. And honestly I'm just trying to help in anyway I can. The world is full of very opinionated and many times very wrong people. But if someone asks me for help I will do my best and just hope that that knowledge I've given doesn't get distorted or used for the wrong purposes in the future.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Badar. The second link is interesting, but I am sure this only applies for those few words and may have a connection to idgham. you will find words that contain letters that are close soundwise (and in the position of the mouth) every once in a while being as synonyms. The first link you gave me is a definite explanation of idgham, something you might want to do more research on (this is also called assimilation in English and explains who letters affect the sound of other letters that follow or precede them). Extrapolating that the taw and dal are interchangeable is definitely a far reach. I would do some more research on idgham before making any more conclusions like this.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwer may Rubb bless you more. I read idgham a while ago. I did not understand it, to be like this, but you bring an intresting prospective. Hence, I will restudy idgham with this prospective to check if it makes sense.
However, this change of Alphabet is becoming an increasingly recurring and possible helpful principle in understanding certain words in Alkitab. I will give you another example, where it seem to apply in more ambigous situation and help understand other more mysterious words in AlKitab.
I asked the question on open forum. No body answered. Although, I got a personal respose affirming it. Since it is personal reponse I can not share with you who it was. This is to respect privacy of the person.
This is what my question was "Dear are you aware that in Classic Arabic, alphabet could be changed to in script?"
Response without name "Could be chaged or looks like? I know that reading the original text is difficult without having knowledge beforehand of what letters/words are being read."
Badar
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Badar.
Also this is not a huge deal, but I wanted to correct you Badar. It is not Rubb it is Rabb. And it is Anwar, not Anwer. And may our Rabb also bless you.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, I stand corrected on both, transliteration of , as well spelling of your name. On other query, I am busy this weekend with visiting family so later.
May Rabb bless you.
Badar
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Peace,
Yes pls show me where you think this interchange between jim and yaa has happened. I also think you may have made a visual mistake.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, here are the relavant referance link for above. I do not think that Jiim and Yaa are generated close enough in Vocal tract to justify or explain this exchange. Intresting, isn't?
Peace
Badar
http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume2/00000005.pdf
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Peace,
Wow, I am really glad you sited that. I always had a theory about that, having listened to the pronunciation of the Jeem in different Arabic countries. I will tell you this, the ONLY Arab group to maintain this original pronunciation of the jeem which is close to the yaa, are the Sudanese. And if you you move the jeem more to front of your mouth you get the most common (and closest to English) pronunciation of it. If you move it back in the throat you get the Egyptian and Yemeni Geem. But if you leave it in the middle it is a hybrid between a yaa and the more common J sound. This middle Jeem, that the Sudanese still employ I have always believed to be the most original form of the jeem, and you just confirmed my suspicions. Thakn you again for that and enjoy visiting your family.
Yaay, Sudanese! I love their jeem and their great Classical Arabic education. I think they have the best Classical Arabic education in the whole Arab world. As I have never been more impressed by well educated (in Arabic) Sudanese speakers compared to educated speakers from other Arabic countries. Oh and I also love the Maghrebi qaaf. Both the Maghrebi Qaaf and the Sudanese Jim are classic examples of conservative tendencies in these dialects.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Peace,
Wow, I am really glad you sited that. I always had a theory about that, having listened to the pronunciation of the Jeem in different Arabic countries. I will tell you this, the ONLY Arab group to maintain this original pronunciation of the jeem which is close to the yaa, are the Sudanese. And if you you move the jeem more to front of your mouth you get the most common (and closest to English) pronunciation of it. If you move it back in the throat you get the Egyptian and Yemeni Geem. But if you leave it in the middle it is a hybrid between a yaa and the more common J sound. This middle Jeem, that the Sudanese still employ I have always believed to be the most original form of the jeem, and you just confirmed my suspicions. Thakn you again for that and enjoy visiting your family.
Yaay, Sudanese! I love their jeem and their great Classical Arabic education. I think they have the best Classical Arabic education in the whole Arab world. As I have never been more impressed by well educated (in Arabic) Sudanese speakers compared to educated speakers from other Arabic countries. Oh and I also love the Maghrebi qaaf. Both the Maghrebi Qaaf and the Sudanese Jim are classic examples of conservative tendencies in these dialects.
Godbless,
AnwarDear Anwar, I am glad that you find this ignorant/illiterate of Arabic to be of some use. I reviewed, Idgham again today. I understood it, to be more relating to Tajweed before. That is only assimilation of alphabets in vocalization of words, not in script writing. Please see link below. Do you understand Idgham differently, if so please share some reference.
Badar
http//www.readwithtajweed.com/tajweed_Idghaam.htm