Unneccessary & unscientific concept of breast feeding "sisters" in the Quran
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Forbidden for you are ... and your sisters from suckling
Pity Allah didn't mention the ill effect of repeated cousin couples! rotfl
Let's see.. you start off your topic about unnecessary and unscientific concept. Who said Quran is a book of science?
Then you go on about ill effects of repeat cousin couples. so what topic do you want to discuss?
did God say it has ill effects? Did Quran say that? Did you ever think outside of the box and think of psychological effects? or did that not come into the equation?
In regards to cousin couples marriage is your free choice. i have friends and family who married cousins and they're capable full minded people.
why pick on muslims? it's easy to fault on others aint it. Einstein married his cousin, queen Victoria married her cousin, Charles Darwin married his cousin..
If people wanna marry their cousins so be it. everything in life can be seen as a harm, there are more harmful things than people marrying cousins.
Peace.
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Nowhere,but as I showed, He hasn't prohibited it either.Naturally, Muslims will not shy away from such marriages as Allah prohibited all sorts of marriages but condoned those!
Also, there is Fatima & Ali's marriage as a precedent.
The reason cousin marriages happen is that, getting you son or daughter married off is often a tricky proposition for many. You are either sending your daughter into a new home, or else welcoming a stranger into your house as a daughter in law.
You aren't sure of that person's temperament, food habits etc. You aren't even sure how well you'll get along with their relatives.
With cousin marriages not being prohibited, but even milk siblings being prohibited, & with the Fatima Ali example, obviously Muslims will think marrying their child to his\her first cousin is a safer bet than marrying unrelated women\men, who's family is not known to them & who maybe badly behaved,violent etc.
Thus, it continues.
It is but revolving around one thing. My son is married to a woman not from our family/clan and about whom we did not know anything earlier; and my daughter is married to a man not related to our family/tribe. I am married with my cousin. Couples not related to each other may also have retarded children. Should we stop marrying only because that there is some possibility of having a retarded child? Yet we are not aware of all the facts causing some problem in the child birth.
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Should we stop marrying only because that there is some possibility of having a retarded child? Yet we are not aware of all the facts causing some problem in the child birth.
there is an increased risk, so it's safer not to. but of course, it should be left to the discretion of each couple.
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It is but revolving around one thing. My son is married to a woman not from our family/clan and about whom we did not know anything earlier; and my daughter is married to a man not related to our family/tribe. I am married with my cousin. Couples not related to each other may also have retarded children. Should we stop marrying only because that there is some possibility of having a retarded child? Yet we are not aware of all the facts causing some problem in the child birth.
Hi Mazhar,
Sure, it is revolving around mainly cousin marriage. Yes, its true that unrelated couples can also have retarded children.
However, the chances of related couples producing retarded children are significantly higher,especially if there's consistent inbreeding over generations-this has been concluded in study after study.
We shouldn't stop marrying at all, if there're possibilities of producing retarded kids,however, we should stop indulging in behaviors which greatly increases the chances of producing retarded kids right?
Take something like women's death in childbirth, or complications during or after childbirth-all sorts of women in less developed nations die in childbirth, yet study after study shows that women who've been "circumcised" ie genitally mutilated especially by the dangerous & extreme methods of genital mutilation in Sub Saharan African nations have a far greater probability of dying in childbirth or suffering pain & ill health, compared to women with intact genitalia or even mild emthods of circumcision.
We should likewise avoid behavior which can increase the chances of birth defects.
The first link is about cousin couples
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_couple
This is about the royal family of the Hapsburgs, whose health was ruined by repeated cousin marriages.
http//www.independent.co.uk/news/science/revealed-the-inbreeding-that-ruined-the-hapsburgs-1668857.html
The dangers of breeding with extremely close relatives was something most of the world'c cultures managed to figure out on their own-which is why marrying one's brother or sister was forbidden by nearly all cultures. Otherwise why would people stop at first cousins & not get their daughters married off to their own sons? ;D
Sending one's daughter off into another family where the groom & his mother might ill treat her, daughter taking away part of the patrimony into another family, the risks of getting an evil daughter in law who might abuse you in old age-can all be avoided by sibling marriages. However, because of the tremendous risks of genetic defects in kids, nearly all cultures have managed to have a taboo on such behavior.
Repeated first cousins produce too produce similar genetic illnesses. In cultures where first cousin marriages are condoned(they're not banned in the Quran, but harmless "milk sisters" are banned), because of all the perceived benefits of such unions(ie less risk of kids going into a non related & potentially dangerous tribe, property kept in the family etc), there's cousin marriage in generation after generation, & with each generation of such behavior, risks of retarded kids increase.First generation itself is harmful & should be slightly discouraged, however, with centuries or millennia of such behavior, the risks multiply greatly.
In Saudi I met a husband & wife, who were chidren of double first cousins, ie their mom's were sisters & dads were brothers. Their entire generations were inbred. The woman said that this was a very "safe" thing to do, it'd result in good,loving in laws & fewer risks of divorces! D
Maybe thats' why places like Saudi are so f***ed up inspite of oil! !
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there is an increased risk, so it's safer not to. but of course, it should be left to the discretion of each couple.
For the first generation there's only an increased risk, unfortunately such behavior is indulged in over multiple generations, the risks are enormous-far, far higher than any potential benefit.
The Quran doesn't even ban repeated cousin marriages, which are far riskier than any imaginary milk sibling problems.
Also, repeated double first cousin(ie both sets of parents are siblings) marriages multiply risks as well.
In the mid east, Pakistan etc, cousin marriages are generally something which isn't confined to one generation, its a practice indulged in over generations & centuries, unfortunately this isn't prohibited or even discouraged in the Quran.
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it's not necessarily an increased risk.
You seem so bias
An alternate argument
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7404730.stm
Everyone has risks your cousin or the stranger next door it all depends on the GENES you carry. For someone who apparently is big on science you should know that. The stranger next door could have more issues than your own cousin and cause more ?risks? than your cousin.
You?re being way too judgemental.
Why is it unfortunate that the Quran doesn?t prohibit it? No one is forcing you to marry your cousin.
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it's not necessarily an increased risk.
You seem so bias
An alternate argument
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7404730.stm
Everyone has risks your cousin or the stranger next door it all depends on the GENES you carry. For someone who apparently is big on science you should know that. The stranger next door could have more issues than your own cousin and cause more ?risks? than your cousin.
You?re being way too judgemental.
Why is it unfortunate that the Quran doesn?t prohibit it? No one is forcing you to marry your cousin.
Unfortunately, even your link amply shows that risks are greatly increased, especially amongst the Pakistani British community, on which extensive research has been carried out.
The Born in Bradford study, tracking 10,000 children from birth through their first two decades of life aims to rectify this.
Around 50% of children born in Bradford are to Pakistani parents.
Dr Peter Corry, a consultant paediatrician at Bradford Teaching Hospitals says they have identified almost 150 of these rare genetic conditions in the city - much higher than would be expected.
And data collected by the British Paediatric Surveillance Unit has shown since 1997 there have been 902 British children born with neurodegenerative conditions and 8% of those were in Bradford which only has 1% of the population.
He too advocates better genetic testing for families affected.
"Different populations have different patterns of genetic conditions.
"In Bradford, these conditions are much more prevalent than you would expect but they're still pretty rare.
"I would guess there is a genetic or metabolic test for about half the conditions and each time in Bradford a new gene is discovered there are two or three families who can be offered testing," he added.
The Born in Bradford study is collecting information on the family tree of those taking part but will also look at environmental issues which may have an impact on health.
"Of the first 1,100 pregnant Pakistani women recruited, 70% are from consanguineous marriages," he said.
"When I came to Bradford 20 years ago most Pakistani parents didn't understand when you were talking about genetics but now we're seeing young Pakistani professionals with a much greater knowledge about genetic conditions."
Dr Corry says the numbers may be small but the genetic disorders can be devastating for the families involved.
In one extended family he works with six children who have the same genetic condition which means they are unlikely to live beyond their teens.
But he says on the positive side, affected families who work with the genetic services in Bradford are helping to advance doctors knowledge of such conditions which leads to new genetic tests and potential treatments.
This also proves that either Samia was genuinely unaware of the extent of Muslim cousin marriage customs in Pakistan, or she was purposely being misleading when she claimed that such stuff don't happen in UK! ;D
I feel sorry for the poor Brits, these folks immigrate there, live off welfare, have huge families with plenty of disabled kids, & often plan terrorist attacks! Thank God the Brits also have good non Muslim immigrants like the non Muslim Indians & the Chinese, with higher than national incomes! yay
Yes, the study says that risks increase only a little in the 1st generation, unfortunately cousin marriages isn't a single generation thing for most Muslim couples, their parents, grandparents & so on are often cousins as well.
For someone who apparently is big on science you should know that. The stranger next door could have more issues than your own cousin and cause more ?risks? than your cousin.
Well, Sarah, even from your study we see how greatly risks increase in Bradford with its huge Muslim community & cousin marriages.
Here,
Around 50% of children born in Bradford are to Pakistani parents.
Dr Peter Corry, a consultant paediatrician at Bradford Teaching Hospitals says they have identified almost 150 of these rare genetic conditions in the city - much higher than would be expected.
And data collected by the British Paediatric Surveillance Unit has shown since 1997 there have been 902 British children born with neurodegenerative conditions and 8% of those were in Bradford which only has 1% of the population.
50% of kids in Bradford are to Pakistani parents, obviously not all parents are first cousins, but even many who aren't are the children or grandchildren of first cousins, & Bradford with its 1% of nation's population has *% of all kids with neurodegenerative conditions.
You?re being way too judgemental.
Not at all, when a book claims to be the last guidance from the Creator of the Universe, it considers it neccessary to ban marriages to milk sisters & brothers whom you might've never met,yet fails to so much as discourage, let alone ban repeated cousin marriages over many generations, I have every right to be judgmental. Such lofty claims as the Quran makes better be supported by such qualities. yes
Why is it unfortunate that the Quran doesn?t prohibit it? No one is forcing you to marry your cousin.
It is unfortunate simply because, as even your link shows, those 8% neurological disorders have unfortunately happened in Bradford, where half of all births are to Pakistani parents, who're often cousin couples or descended from such cousin couples. Those poor kids will suffer for life, as will their parents, the Brits will have to bear the additional trouble of their medical needs, they already have stuff like jihadi attacks from these folks to bother about! >
Also, as I have shown in other links, there's enormous amount of increased chances of birth defects with cousin marriages-1st time, as your link showed, is only slight increase, over generations, risks increase greatly.
No one is forcing cousin marriages, but with no one outlawing it either, it often becomes a public health concern. In communities were such marriages aren't taboo, they're often the preferred mode of marriage, as people feel that since the would be bride\groom of their child & his parents are known to them from childhood, it would be potentially less risky than sending their kids' off into a potentially abusive or violent family, it will ensure a loving husband, kind mom in law, dutiful daughter in law etc & make it easier to get along as all the habits of that family will be known etc. Not forbidding or discouraging it in the Quran means that gullible & ignorant Muslims(even Quranists) would believe that the potential benefits I cited make it the ideal match.
Again quoting from your link
When I came to Bradford 20 years ago most Pakistani parents didn't understand when you were talking about genetics but now we're seeing young Pakistani professionals with a much greater knowledge about genetic conditions."
So devout Pakistani Muslims, ignorant of these risks would indulge in such practices, as they have for centuries. Now the West, as always is helping Muslims become aware of these health issues,but again, its a case of the West or other non Muslims helping Muslims advance in health, rather than anything Muslims are learning & contributing via Quran! peace
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Peace all
Fawzia
Reading your statment below it seems you belong to the British nationalist party.(I feel sorry for the poor Brits, these folks immigrate there, live off welfare, have huge families with plenty of disabled kids, & often plan terrorist attacks! Thank God the Brits also have good non Muslim immigrants like the non Muslim Indians & the Chinese, with higher than national incomes!]
We Brits have been living of othere countries for such a long time so what if they come and live of us.
live long and prosper
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Peace all
Fawzia
Reading your statment below it seems you belong to the British nationalist party.(I feel sorry for the poor Brits, these folks immigrate there, live off welfare, have huge families with plenty of disabled kids, & often plan terrorist attacks! Thank God the Brits also have good non Muslim immigrants like the non Muslim Indians & the Chinese, with higher than national incomes!]
We Brits have been living of othere countries for such a long time so what if they come and live of us.
live long and prosper
Muslims too have lived off plenty of other nations for a long time-far longer than any Brits have, Turkey was a big colonizing power & colonized nations like Greece, Arab Muslims have lived off my birthplace Iran, throwing off its Zoroastrian civilization from the 7th century, all Muslims nations in the mid-East, North Africa, Pakistan were formed after abrupt invasions by Muslims, & Muslims took great stuff from all these nations too! Saudi has lived off all these nations which right after Muhammad's death conquered many nations-& the conversions which followed after conquest , it forget welcoming citizens like Zoroastrian Iranians or Hindu Indians as permanent citizens, it doesn't even let them construct temples! ;D
Never been colonized by the West Afghanistan had rulers like Mahmud of Ghazni who plundered Indian temples & carried off vast wealth, slaves to Afghanistan, the condition of the Hindko(non Muslim minorities) in Afghanistan is appalling currently.
I don't see colonizing power Turkey welcoming their former colony Greece's immigrants-rather Turks live in many European nations today! D
Anyway, I am not a BNP meber, but I do feel Muslims aren't entitled to anymore bad behavior than any other communities-if the non Muslim Indians & Chinese can avoid planning terror attacks & achieve financial success, so should Muslims! non Muslim Indians were no less colonized than Muslims, rather they were twice colonized-first by the Muslims themselves, then by the Brits!
Btw, I would've felt sorry for the Turks too had their former colony Greece's people settled there, planned attacks, lived off welfare etc! Or for Saudi Arabia if say Iranian Zoroastrians, who suffered massively due to Arabia's invasions, went there & plotted to kill Saudis! )
As it happens, Muslim Turkey has no need for my sympathies-they don't let former colony Greece's peoples in, they have also consistently denied their Armenian Holocaust, forget welcoming millions of terrorist planning Armenians! ;D
Muslims know how to protect their interests all right & also get the best out of others tolerance! peace
I repeat, I am no BNP supporter, however, I do dislike Islam & I feel sorry for may of its victims from Iranian Zoroastrians to others.
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Muslims too have lived off plenty of other nations for a long time-far longer than any Brits have, Turkey was a big colonizing power & colonized nations like Greece, Arab Muslims have lived off my birthplace Iran, throwing off its Zoroastrian civilization from the 7th century, all Muslims nations in the mid-East, North Africa, Pakistan were formed after abrupt invasions by Muslims, & Muslims took great stuff from all these nations too! Saudi has lived off all these nations which right after Muhammad's death conquered many nations-& the conversions which followed after conquest , it forget welcoming citizens like Zoroastrian Iranians or Hindu Indians as permanent citizens, it doesn't even let them construct temples! ;D
Never been colonized by the West Afghanistan had rulers like Mahmud of Ghazni who plundered Indian temples & carried off vast wealth, slaves to Afghanistan, the condition of the Hindko(non Muslim minorities) in Afghanistan is appalling currently.
I don't see colonizing power Turkey welcoming their former colony Greece's immigrants-rather Turks live in many European nations today! D
Anyway, I am not a BNP meber, but I do feel Muslims aren't entitled to anymore bad behavior than any other communities-if the non Muslim Indians & Chinese can avoid planning terror attacks & achieve financial success, so should Muslims! non Muslim Indians were no less colonized than Muslims, rather they were twice colonized-first by the Muslims themselves, then by the Brits!
Btw, I would've felt sorry for the Turks too had their former colony Greece's people settled there, planned attacks, lived off welfare etc! Or for Saudi Arabia if say Iranian Zoroastrians, who suffered massively due to Arabia's invasions, went there & plotted to kill Saudis!  
As it happens, Muslim Turkey has no need for my sympathies-they don't let former colony Greece's peoples in, they have also consistently denied their Armenian Holocaust, forget welcoming millions of terrorist planning Armenians! ;D
Muslims know how to protect their interests all right & also get the best out of others tolerance! peace
I repeat, I am no BNP supporter, however, I do dislike Islam & I feel sorry for may of its victims from Iranian Zoroastrians to others.
Wow, you sound like an ignorant European racist.. sheer ignorance and bias.
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I don't think there is anything there to make people related. It is a good question that Fawzia has brought up. My question is, is it the very act of having been breastfed by the same nurse-mother, or is it a question of fostering? It seems to me that nurse-mothers at that time raised those children until they were 5 or 6 years old, but I could be completely wrong about that.
Maybe not. hmm
But maybe there is.
In this article http//www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20081102-16879.html
It says "a new mother?s mammary glands take over from the placenta to provide the development guidance to ensure a baby?s genetic destiny is fulfilled."The way it used to be, that the nurse-mothers raised the children ... makes sense too. But now, there are milk banks - where people donate their milk... and then you don't even know where the milk came from.
I'm just saying that just because science doesn't know/hasn't discovered something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
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I feel sorry for the poor Brits, these folks immigrate there, live off welfare, have huge families with plenty of disabled kids, & often plan terrorist attacks! ( Thank God the Brits also have good non Muslim immigrants like the non Muslim Indians & the Chinese, with higher than national incomes! yay
Wow Fauzia,
If there is one thing I remember from my aunts and uncles who worked in the middle East (we are south asians) is that the typical middle eastern is extremely racist against the 'brown-skinned' people. Did it ever occur to you that there are south asian muslims in the UK who are pressing for a secular democracy against some of these 'crazy' people.
http//www.spittoon.org/archives/3366
How can you paint an entire race/nation/ ethnic group as backward? It is nothing short of racist. There are Bangladeshi immigrants in the UK who are Muslim, many are traditional muslims, but they have nothing to do with terrorism. One of the victims of the subway bombings was a Bangladeshi girl in her early 20s whereas the bombers were ethnically Pakistani or west Indian.
A lot of darker skinned people face severe discrimination with respect to jobs and housing in the UK, but you haven't even considered that.
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-if the non Muslim Indians & Chinese can avoid planning terror attacks & achieve financial success, so should Muslims! non Muslim Indians were no less colonized than Muslims, rather they were twice colonized-first by the Muslims themselves, then by the Brits!
Muslims know how to protect their interests all right & also get the best out of others tolerance! peace
I repeat, I am no BNP supporter, however, I do dislike Islam & I feel sorry for may of its victims from Iranian Zoroastrians to others.
What do you think is happening in Kashmir today, might I ask? they have been fighting for independence for nearly 2 decades now.
have you forgotten what happened in Bosnia? How can you say that non- Muslims are tolerant? No extremist group, regardless of professed religion, is tolerant, be it Al Qaeda, Shiv Sena, Lord's Army or whatever.
Every group does its best to protect its rights. Don't the Jews and Hindus and Christians do the same?
Do you dislike Islam, or do you dislike the practices of people who claim to follow Islam?
Pakistani soldiers slaughtered and shot innocent Bangladeshis 'in the name of God,' during the 1971 liberation war. Does that mean that Islam is bad? Or that the Pakistani leadership and army of that time were war criminals?
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Really? Thats' a blatant lie,
First of all please mind your language.
Pakistani Muslims are 13 times more likely to have genetic birth defects compared to the general population.Of course, mentioning this makes Muslims furious!
What makes you think I am Pakistani? Have I said anything explicitly or implicitly to make you think so?
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I didn?t say there isn?t risks there ARE risks. However you can?t say just because you marry your cousin you have such terrible risk like i said earlier many of my cousins married cousins and they don?t have issues. They?re not first generation of cousins marrying cousins either!
Let me quote a bit you decided to read past
Professor Bittles explains that within some communities even non-cousin marriages carry higher risks of these rare genetic disorders because those involved are from the same "biraderi" or clan.
He supports better genetic screening services for those affected over any kind of ban or limit on first-cousin marriages."It would be a mistake to ban it, people have been following consanguineous marriage practices for hundreds of generations and then we come along and say you are going to have to stop - no one will pay attention.
"I would go for selective screening it would be much more effective."It even later goes on to say that data about such studies is lacking and bandied!
Cousin marriages happen everywhere even amongst anglo westerners!
So stop picking on culture.
You got a huge prejudice against muslims, however you fail to say why.
Again, just because in some communities they marry cousins doesn?t mean this is a ?muslim? thing. Muslims do it sure though nowhere does the Quran say ?marry your cousins, it is better for you?. Rememebr culture and religion are 2 different issues.
You are being way to judgement. Tell me why should Quran discourage cousin marriages have you got statistics of every cousin marriage and every defect they have compared to people who marry outside of cousins and defects they have? I assume you don?t until you do please prove your evidence.
I work in the childcare industry and guess what all of the children with special needs don?t have parents who are COUSINS! So maybe you are just a tad bit prejudice.
A parent doesn?t send his/her kid off, if you read the Quran you?d know marriage isn?t up to the parent to decide. But i guess you?re following preconceived notions of Muslims and Quran. Dont mix cultural practices with religion. There is a distinction even if you find difficultly in acknowledging this.
God gave you a mind to use, the Quran doesn?t need to tell you to not to marry your cousin, it?s not a big issue, you?re taking it out of proportion. If you feel its unsafe no one is forcing you to do it and that?s one beauty about the Quran it doesn?t need to give you a detailed analysis of ever little detail in life. In life not everything is black and white, some bits are grey, we have a mind we can use it. that being said our minds are not always right.
You fail to answer my previous question and just stick with cousin marriage when you bring about the issue of milk brothers and sisters. Go on tell me is there no psychological effects of milk bros and sisters? What have you studied about it? Not everything is banned because of ?health? let me show you a verse
422 (Asad) AND DO NOT marry women whom your fathers have previously married - although what is past is past this, verily, is a shameful deed, and a hateful thing, and an evil way.
Not everything is a health issue. But somehow you seem to think Quran is a book of science. Like i said earlier, Quran is NOT a book of science. So stop trying to justify it as one.
The Quran didn?t fail in discouraging/banning cousin marriages. When the book claims to be the last guidance and it is doing that very job then it is one. Do yourself a favour and look up the word guidance.
It?s not a public health concern, the issues and birth defects are not big risks. If the risks were big then it would be a health issue. Look up Dr Arno Motulsky, professor emeritus of medicine and genome sciences at the University of Washington. He said that ?medical geneticists have known for a long time that there was little or no harm in cousins marrying and having children then he further says somehow, this hasn?t become general knowledge. Amongst the public and physicians there?s a feeling it?s real bad and brings a lot of disease, and there?s a lot of social and legal disapproval?.
It just proves the social stigma about it. it's more about discourses than a health issue.
Again families thinking it would be a preferred mode of marriage has nothing to do with Quran. So quit attributing it to Quran.
Do you know much about muslim heritage, or history? Probably not i guess that?s why you think muslims are backwards. You even forget to consider people?s sociocultural context (outside of religion/culture) and how that affects them.
Jihadi attacks have nothing to do with us, it?s an individual act based on their interpretations. I?m not accountable for anyone?s actions, nor are you.
Peace.
