Hello Folks, Fawzia here! I was a Quranist for 10 months.
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Changing the goalposts again. What do you mean by 'old quran'. At first you were babbling about manuscripts now you're talking about old qurans? Make up your mind please. You don't seem to know what you want. I told you already, if you wanna play indiana jones, go right ahead. You dont trust what quran says about itself so what can i do about it? Do what you want.
I used them interchangeably. I meant the same thing.
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Huh? what war?
please don't divert the topic.THere was no war because there was no problems even if they didnt have paper (historically speaking).
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what are all the old Qurans that are preserved?
You see, the other Sarah want to find some old copy of the Quran which probably says 'i am an old quran, please trust my version' to which she'll automatically jump up and down saying 'yessss, this is the original quran'.
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offtopic
No, its a rhetorical device.
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You see, the other Sarah want to find some old copy of the Quran which probably says 'i am an old quran, please trust my version' to which she'll automatically jump up and down saying 'yessss, this is the original quran'.
ad hominem attack. baseless accusation again.
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they all have slight differences, many are much closer to Hafs, while some are closer to Warsh, some differ from both. The division into Hafs and Warsh seems arbitrary
Yeah, so you go play indiana jones with them since to you, God preserves Quran by 'old qurans' (its like 'senior citizens rule' for Quran). You can go decide which 'version' is the right 'version'.
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hardly,
according to your logic, small change= war
how does that work?Muslims are FANATICAL about the Quran. They don't study it but to them, its divine. So IF any problems ever arose concerning the text, there is NO way it would have been simply passed over. There would have been a war which there wasnt. So you do the math.
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Well.. afaik what we have today is known as uthmani script which is hafs, evidences can be found in galleries. A friend of mine went to a exhibition a few months back in London.
Here's a photo
there's evidence of old manuscripts, they're preserved dunno by who.
http//img33.imageshack.us/img33/9753/dsc02258k.jpg
image quality isn't good but hope that helps you
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Yeah, so you go play indiana jones with them since to you, God preserves Quran by 'old qurans' (its like 'senior citizens rule' for Quran). You can go decide which 'version' is the right 'version'.
senior citizen rule? wow
a very simple question
why do the old copies differ from each other?
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Well.. afaik what we have today is known as uthmani script which is hafs, evidences can be found in galleries. A friend of mine went to a exhibition a few months back in London.
Thanks Sarah
I see 8th and 9th century written in the picture. Could you please tell me how far they date back, while still being identical to each other? I am curious
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senior citizen rule? wow
a very simple question
why do the old copies differ from each other?
Why would I care? I don't know who wrote them. Could be some devils for all I know. Why do you care about them? How do you know they are credible at all? The same way you know Muhammad was a merchant?
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Why would I care? I don't know who wrote them. Could be some devils for all I know. Why do you care about them? How do you know they are credible at all? The same way you know Muhammad was a merchant?
because their existence suggests that the Hafs may not have been the standardised variant until a few centuries after the Prophet's death.
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because their existence suggests that the Hafs may not have been the standardised variant until a few centuries after the Prophet's death.
'Suggests that', WHO suggests it? You? Why would I trust you? The Prophet himself mentions his own enemies so why on earth would I accept it as a textual variant? Maybe the enemies of Muhammads wrote it cuz they knew people would be like 'yesss, this is a variant, quran is not perfectly preserved'.
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starts from 7th century afaik, i don't have much info on it sorry when i get in contact with my friend i'll let you know
Thanks Sarah. I hope you don't think I am trying to say that the present day Quran can not be trusted. I do believe in it wholly, but I am not so sure that the people who have made copies between the end of the 6th to the 7th century did it perfectly. It just seems unlikely to me, and hard for me to believe without solid proof, when I know that really old variant manuscripts exist.
My belief in the Quran isn't dependent on the Quran being preserved to the last later. If it has slight errors, I don't mind, since it's only a few human errors. If there are no errors, I am amazed by these people's dedication and grateful to God for its perfect preservation. Since God has said that "They" will preserve the Quran, but didn't say it will be preserved to the last letter, I don't know if the latter is true.
As for the picture you posted, are the 7th, 8th, 9th century and following copies identical to each other to the last letter? That would be truly amazing.
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'Suggests that', WHO suggests it? You? Why would I trust you? The Prophet himself mentions his own enemies so why on earth would I accept it as a textual variant? Maybe the enemies of Muhammads wrote it cuz they knew people would be like 'yesss, this is a variant, quran is not perfectly preserved'.
or maybe there is no conspiracy, you have no proof to choose one variant over another, when the actual one may incorporate elements of both.