women/ females/ orphans in Surah Nisa, 4:3
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Fawzia, listen, honestly.
That is why many people so depend on the translators. If the translators are ego-maniacs, or even if they are trying to be honest but still did errors, then so many people's decisions are compromised.
Do you think one man's view is enough on translating? No, that's why there must be cooperation and earnest discussion.
That's the very theme of this forum itself.
We don't take current translations as is. We are trying to verify by ourselves, and discuss our views with others who want to cooperate with us. And so far, i have the feeling that we are in the minority, at the time being.
I know that one man's view isn't enough, I have read plenty of translations-mostly in English but also in Farsi.
However, if so many people are incapable of translating the simplest stuff, then that simply shows that there's something majorly wrong in Islamic instructions.
We can't really verfy with others very well, unless we have knowledge of Arabic, if its true that all or most previous translators had it wrong.Also, knowledge of Arabic wouldn't help, we'd need to know Classical Arabic, which would require years of study on Muslims parts, given the demands of modernity, this isn't feasible for a billion plus people.
Than how do we know that what we're accepting is a true translation or some saccharine sweetened translation to appeal to modern tastes???
And asking me won't help either because i'm not one of them.
It is related to justice in general, as you can see, there is already the "fire"warning for those who abuse the orphans. Help me search then. I'm not an expert nor that i have memorized the entire Book.
Again, PLEASE READ YOURSELF WHAT IS THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE in the Quran's view.
Sure justice in general, but in case of stuff like polygamy, don't you think there needs to be specifics? Sure the US Constitution goes on & on about stuff like liberty equality, but it also has specifics, like prohibiting murder, robbery etc.
Polygamy abuses the first wife & her children, this isn't the same as abusing orphans, the first wife isn't an orphan, nor are her kids, who have both parents living.
Sure, the Quran, to re type what you said, does say that, THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE will be Hellfire, but then the majority of people aren't Muslims.
The Trinitarian Christians, idolatrous Hindus & Buddhists, the Chinese folk religionists, Japanese Shinto Buddhists, people of no religion, all far outnumber any Muslims or monotheists!
Even without sins like polygamy, the Quran does say that these folks will end up in Hell for disbelief!That would happily make up the majority.
Why should a good atheist or Trinitarian Catholic be criticized more strongly than a polygamist?
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Fawzia, seems like you take on the matter of justice and disbelieve lightly. It 's your take. I'm only passing on.
4135-149
O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives. Whether one is rich or poor, Allah is more worthy of both. So follow not inclination, lest you not be just. And if you distort or refuse , then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted.
O you who have believed, believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book that He sent down upon His Messenger and the Scripture which He sent down before. And whoever disbelieves in Allah , His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day has certainly gone far astray.
Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way.
Give tidings to the hypocrites that there is for them a painful punishment -
Indeed, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire - and never will you find for them a helper -
Except for those who repent, correct themselves, hold fast to Allah , and are sincere in their religion for Allah , for those will be with the believers. And Allah is going to give the believers a great reward.
What would Allah do with your punishment if you are grateful and believe? And ever is Allah Appreciative and Knowing.
Allah does not like the public mention of evil except by one who has been wronged. And ever is Allah Hearing and Knowing.
If you show good or conceal it or pardon an offense - indeed, Allah is ever Pardoning and Competent.
Don't ask me for anything other than the topic of this thread. And i really have to leave now.
Peace.
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http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597268.msg181548#msg181548
Second
A WOMAN, ( ة is a grown-up adult. There is no such thing as an ORPHAN WOMAN.
Have you ever heard of an ORPHAN MAN...?
When Pickthal translated the verse as such { Say Allah makes known to you His decision concerning them, and that which is recited to you in the Book concerning female orphans whom you do not give what is appointed for them while you desire to marry them}
He not only corrupted the text (which mentions WOMEN not females), but also condoned pedophilia.
How in God's name do you marry an orphan?! Open your eyes man, for God's sake!!! An orphan is a child!
How can you be so blind?In Arabic, an orphan = a child who has lost his father.
The Quran is talking about marrying the WOMEN WHO ARE THE MOTHERS OF THE ORPHANS!!!! not the orphans themselves!!.
The phrase (The orphans OF women meaning the orphans belonging to the women) does NOT mean (orphan women). There's no such thing as an "orphan women" to begin with (woman = grown up past the age of orphanage).
The correct translation of 4127 is
{And they seek a ruling regarding the women, say ?God will give you a ruling regarding them and what is being recited to you in the Scripture regarding the orphans of women whom you wish to marry, but have not given them (the women) what was decreed for them; as well as the weak from the children That you stand for the orphans in equality.? Whatever good you do, then God is aware of it.}.
It is giving a license to men to marry the mothers of orphans (meaning marry the widows, in order to properly take care of their orphan children). God is exempting these men from paying the dowry.
(orphan women) women who are left alone in the society, those who couldn't get a partner for any reason, they are either widowed, divorced, single women.
- homeless Men/Women
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so yataman nisa means orphaned girls and
yataman means orphan of either sex?Not orphaned girls but women. A girl is not a woman and a woman is not a girl. And this is amply made clear by the desire such particular men have . Nikah is permissible with women NOT girls.
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Not orphaned girls but women. A girl is not a woman and a woman is not a girl. And this is amply made clear by the desire such particular men have . Nikah is permissible with women NOT girls.
Thank you for clarifying this Mazhar. I didn't realize i answered her without clarifying what nisaa of yataman-nisaa is.
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To get back to the original topic, I'll quote an earlier post of mine.
It seems quite clear that 7th century Arabia, due to a multitude of factors, probably had more men of marriageable age than women. So, the polygamy supporters's point that there were an excess of widowed women with children due to wars does not seem to hold water. So, are the women in 43 being married off to already married men, or single men? If they were being married off to already married men, that would suggest that many young men are not able to get married since the older, richer, more powerful men grab all the women for themselves.
Yes, and it also leads me to wonder one more thing, which is why I am curious about the historical situation in Arabia.
Most motherless orphans and widows, would, I presume, in a country with no social security or welfare benefits, go to the homes of their male relatives. If they are already related, these male relatives would, I suppose not want to take the burden of supporting her and her children, but at the same time would not be able to marry these women. (I am talking about close male relatives, like a brother, or an uncle, ).Of course, this is just part of a thought experiment on my part, and I just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
To continue it, less consider this society to be one where female infanticide was common. So there would be fewer mature women, why wouldn't these women then marry bachelors among the community when there should be plenty available, even after wartime?
Wars were much shorter then, I believe, and they didn't have poison gas or other forms of mass killing instruments. Isn't it reasonable to think that their male-female ratio wouldn't fall as drastically as they did for the Germans in World War II?
Dc2, you do bring up some very interesting questions that have made me start thinking.
What's actually funny is that it seems polygyny ought to be even less likely considering that there should actually be an excess of marriageable single men, rather than of women of marriageable age, unlike what proponents of polygyny claim...
???
Anyone has some input on this?
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Sure, the Quran, to re type what you said, does say that, THE FATE OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE will be Hellfire, but then the majority of people aren't Muslims.
Oh, no. My question was answered with a prejudice, it seems. That was serious.
Even i was unsure i remember correctly, so i actually searched for it. You too, should do a research first, Fawzia.
The hellfire you said is for the clearly-defined coverers and disbelievers and hypocrites (which i added later to my question--check the 'ed' inside parentheses).
As for the majority of people, the descriptions are regarding their behavior in this world. Their ends are kept secret to us.
I will make a new thread on this subject. It has to be clarified. Please read http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599425.0
Peace.
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Grand Qur'aan is guidance/knowledge for the mankind and for those who aspire and live a heedful, cautious life restraining from unrestrained conduct it is a Guide in time and space. Time and space is the day and night and varying situations arising therein. For such men Qur'aan is the source to be frequented to know the better course of action to handle a situation.
403 begins with a conditional clause-describing a situation arisen
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.03c.gif
And if you people apprehend that you may not be able to equally treat/look after the orphans,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.03d.gif
therefore/in such circumstances the best option for you people/the believing society is to arrange the marriage/nikah from the women in twos and threes and fours.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.03e.gif
For reason of being apprehensive that you will not be able to do justice and fairness then in such case marry only one woman or from amongst the house-maids /believing married woman who has migrated to you.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.03f.gif
This course of action will diminish the possibility of your/the society doing injustice . -
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.03d.gif
therefore/in such circumstances the best option for you people/the believing society is to arrange the marriage/nikah from the women in twos and threes and fours.my question is, who are the men these women are marrying? Are they single men, or already married men? This has an immediate impact on the legitimacy of polygamy
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my question is, who are the men these women are marrying? Are they single men, or already married men? This has an immediate impact on the legitimacy of polygamy
All men are included, a "virgin" man, a married man, an earlier married man but now without a wife. Legitimacy is only in observing the conditions laid down for the permission/solution given. "Polygamy" in the perception of enjoying "variety" is nowhere permitted or exists in Qur'aan.
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Legitimacy is only in observing the conditions laid down for the permission/solution given.
I have for some time realized the 'algorithmic' nature of some verses of the Quran.
It is called conditional statement in programming, where the statement will not be executed unless the condition occurs (i.e., become "true".
If ...
then ...in Arabic, the equivalence would be
in ...
fa ...(this is not always the case.)
The case with Alnisaa', imo, is that the verses in question (43 and inheritance in 411-12) are often evaluated in exclusion, apart from the context--especially the preceding verses! And to make things worse, some poor translations changed the original condition (and also its statement) into another entirely different thing--false polygamy.
I just had an idea some moments ago, that this Sura deserves special attention from the public, with so many issues related to this sura.
Orphans, women, inheritance, adultery, ...
What about we develop a website dedicated to explaining the Sura, visually?
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All men are included, a "virgin" man, a married man, an earlier married man but now without a wife. Legitimacy is only in observing the conditions laid down for the permission/solution given. "Polygamy" in the perception of enjoying "variety" is nowhere permitted or exists in Qur'aan.
Is there any other verse in the Quran, with the exception of 43 that could possibly be interpreted as allowing a second marriage to an already married man? The one about not being married to two sisters refers to a past event, not a new marriage after the revelation of the Quran.
If there isn't, that would suggest that polygamy was never allowed for the believing man.
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What about we develop a website dedicated to explaining the Sura, visually?
a lot of people would benefit from that.
Wherever there is a need to let people see the "visuals", Qur'aan narrates that in such a manner that the reader could also see/visualize the incident/episode/incident.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.104b.gif
You, the Messenger pronounce, "Indeed to you people has been brought from your Sustainer Lord the "Visualizer"http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.104e.gif
Therefore whoever focused/visualized then it is indeed for his own person.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.104f.gif
And whoever remained blind to it then the effect is upon that self.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/temp%2002%206.104d.gif
And I am not upon you people, certainly, the Guard/onlooker .http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/6.105a.gif
And this is how We rotate/centrifuge the Aa'ya'at so that people may say, " you threshed, examined/explained exhaustively", and so that We may make it distinct/apparent/manifest from all angles for the people to comprehensively know/understand it.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/006.%20Al%20Anaam/006.%20Al%20Anaam%20B.htm
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Is there any other verse in the Quran, with the exception of 43 that could possibly be interpreted as allowing a second marriage to an already married man? The one about not being married to two sisters refers to a past event, not a new marriage after the revelation of the Quran.
If there isn't, that would suggest that polygamy was never allowed for the believing man.
This is declaring the prohibition that you might gather two sisters in your marriage fold, NOT second marriage, and is clarified that this injunction is not to be applied retrospectively but prospectively. An act done in the past cannot be undone, it had to be overlooked to avoid legal complications/problems for people.
For another quote please refer to 4129.
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as in you can't marry a woman's sister after divorcing her?
you can marry with your ex wife's sister, and incase you divorce your ex wife's sister too, then you can remarry your first ex wife the sister of your latest ex wife.