I challenge all Quranists.
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For these who say includes Ridah (Apostasy)
or war of Apostasy is clear example that it's not ok for a Muslim to leave his faith after he believed.
Abu Bakkir fought these who refused the Zakkah and refused the deen after they accepted it, he didn't tell them
First off, I reject this story. But lets say it was true. So what? Abu Bakr isn't my criteria, Quran is. And as I told you in 10/99
And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force MANKIND till they become believers?
10/99 shows that under no circumstances can you force people to believe. As I told you, laa ikraha fee ad-deen doesn't say 'when they enter' . There simply isnt any karh at all.
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Well firstly you need to read chapter 5 of the Quran and you will see clearly the Quran recognized three scriptures(Torah, Gospel and Quran) and recognized one faith, faith in God and judgement day. So I am not sure if a question like is Sunnism a wrong sect can be answered since Sunnis believe in God and the last day. But I will say many teachings of Sunni FIQH is against the teachings of the Quran and is more resembling to Bukhari and Muslim hadith sources.
Not all Quranist reject all hadiths, but no Quranist will accept it at the expense of the Quran which Sunni fiqh does in many occasion.
I think the biggest difference is in individual interpretation and application. Quranist generally see the Quran as an open Book for meveryone and interpretation and application is an individual's duty while Sunnis see the Quran as a Book to be recited and revered but not interpreted except by jurist and its application is also in the hands of jurist who rely almost exclusivesly on hadiths and consensus. They then believe they have the right to enforce that on people even through violence. Of course this means they need political support to have the power, which they do. Hence the Shariah law of theirs. Shariah law in the Quran is refering to the Torah and Gospel and Quran(read chapter 5).
So in the end its about individual freedom and responsibility. And this makes sense since we will in the end stand in front of God as individuals and each will be responsible for himself. This notion that Sunni and Shias have that they can force their doctrine over others is the reason why we have violence and oppression in the name of Islam like Sudan, Saudi and Taliban.
I do not accept trhe arguments some Quranist like Edip and others propagate about polytheism. I do not see Sunnism as polytheistic and I see nothing wrong with praising or elevating the status of Muhammad. However, we must do the same will ALL OF THE PROPHETS as the Quran says and not pick one and abrogate the others.
Which takes us to the most important argument that I believes seperates Quranist from Sunnis and that is abrogation. You can't be a Quranist and believe in abrogation because that means that the Quran is no longer a source of guidance and many of its verses are no longer relevant. Thats a crime against the Quran.
I also do not accept the abrogation of the pevious scriptures since I see the Quran seeing itself in equal footing with the previous scriptures. Once again read chapter 5.
Quranist therefore do not have an orthodoxy and a theocracy even if they wanted to. BUt I can not say that everything in Sunni Islam is false, but many things are, at least in comparing it with Quran.
I pointed out ayah 37 which is clearly states not anyone can interpret the Qur'an.
I also do not accept the abrogation of the pevious scriptures since I see the Quran seeing itself in equal footing with the previous scriptures. Once again read chapter 5.
Allah never commanded us to read the Torah or Gospel actually in many verses its clearly state that these books were edited.
So in the end its about individual freedom and responsibility. And this makes sense since we will in the end stand in front of God as individuals and each will be responsible for himself.
yeah everyone will stand in front of Allah as an individual but that doesn't mean everyone has an individual duty of making his own Sharia, actually many things are obligation on all people as a group instead of on individual alone.
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Is tafseer the same as Alqur'aan?
No, the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Tafseer is the word of man explaining the Qur'an.
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This is a personal question which i'd like to ask you in public
Do you (try to) understand Arabic?
explain that question more please.
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When you are reading a tafseer, are you studying Alqur'aan, or are you studying tafseer?
I'm not studying AlQuran, studying AlQuran will need me to go and attend lectures to scholars and I'll need to spend serious amount of time studying the whole Qur'an
when I don't understand a verse or get confused I check the tafseer of Bin Kathir to understand it better.
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Last question
is the lasting reference for true ISLAM, tafseer, or is it Alqur'aan itself?
You mean Adilah? it's the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet
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Here's an example of Bukhari's interpretation of the Quran under the 'authority of the Prophet'
Narrated Abu Huraira Allah's Apostle said, "When the Imam says 'Ghair-il-Maghdubi 'Alaihim Walad-Dallin (i.e. not the path of those who earn Your Anger, nor the path of those who went astray (1.7)), then you must say, 'Ameen', for if one's utterance of 'Ameen' coincides with that of the angels, then his past sins will be forgiven."
You see, instead of EXPLAINING what maghdubi alaih means (ghadaba, yaghdhubu appears in the Quran elsewhere), the 'prophet' supercialises it by saying if you say 'ameen' with the angels! This is the kind cheap tricks imams use to fool the masses to think forgiveness comes so easily.
This is your so-called 'tawil', stranger? Please think about this.
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According to your sunni history, the Quran wasn't even compiled into a book during the time of the Prophet! Can you imagine the Prophet leaving the preservation of the Quran to CHANCE? He was told by Allah in Q 5/67
O Messenger! make reach which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission
Despite this clear declaration, you guys have said stuff like verse of the Quran have been FORGOTTEN due to being eaten by goats! Have a read of 'Introduction to the Sciences of the Quran' by Abu Ammar Yasir Qadhi. You guys have betrayed the Quran, im sorry to say.
What? there were many hafiz at the time of the Prophet so if a peace of Paper was lost that doesn't mean part of the Qur'an is lost Allah subhannahu wattalla says in Surah Alhijir so the Qur'an was never changed and it's protected by Allah himself, many sects in history tried to change it like Shia who wanted to add words like Imam and Ali but you know who stood in front of them? Ahlu alsunnah who already memorized the Qur'an in numbers.
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On the contrary, I too have read ahadith similar to what you said, but NOT exactly like you said it. I want you to cite the specific hadith, so we can see if it says what you say. It really is quite a simple request.
Ok, I'll try to find it.
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What? there were many hafiz at the time of the Prophet so if a peace of Paper was lost that doesn't mean part of the Qur'an is lost Allah subhannahu wattalla says in Surah Alhijir so the Qur'an was never changed and it's protected by Allah himself, many sects in history tried to change it like Shia who wanted to add words like Imam and Ali but you know who stood in front of them? Ahlu alsunnah who already memorized the Qur'an in numbers.
Stranger, I don't believe in this myself but it's the belief of your ahlusunnah folk. Here's the hadith about it
Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934)
Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept
under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."You really need to ask your ulema this stuff, man. They have some serious explaining to do.
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Salam, Peace, Stranger, all,
The title of the topic "I challenge all quranist" is somehow quiet arrogant for someone who publicaly declare
"I'm not studying AlQuran, studying AlQuran will need me to go and attend lectures to scholars and I'll need to spend serious amount of time studying the whole Qur'an"
Yeah spending time studiying The Reading is maybe not worthy for you.I mean would you go in a hospital and tell the doctors "I challenge all the doctors, however I never studied medecin"!!!!!
My question to you
Why is this topic for?
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Salaam again, stranger1990,
No, the Qur'an is the word of Allah. Tafseer is the word of man explaining the Qur'an.
True.
explain that question more please.
Here you go Are you trying to understand Classical (Quranic) Arabic? e.g., are you learning Arabic in any way?
I'm not studying AlQuran, studying AlQuran will need me to go and attend lectures to scholars and I'll need to spend serious amount of time studying the whole Qur'an
when I don't understand a verse or get confused I check the tafseer of Bin Kathir to understand it better.
Thank you. That gives us a clue of your current relationship with Alqur'aan.
Serious amount of time... of what -- your life? Surely you remember that this is only a very short life? Like the passing of a day or even shorter?
Actually, you don't need to go and attend lectures to scholars. For a start, those scholars do have some kind of record of their thoughts in readable materials, don't they?
Regarding tafseer -- that is actually how you approach to study Alqur'aan, though i may suggest that you should have more references to cross-check what you learn. Yes, this is what i'm suggesting to you read more tafseers for cross-reference. Do like what those scholars did. And keep on practicing what you've understood (esp. regarding taqwa and Amilu AlSaliHat), may ALLAH guides you to better understanding.
You mean Adilah? it's the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet
Prophet who -- there are many Prophets mentioned in the Qur'an. We're not to make distinction to any of them.
384 Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims to Him."
Of course i understood that you were referring to the Messenger and Last Prophet Muhammad, weren't you? The Last Prophet followed Alqur'aan. So if you are trying to follow the Prophet, of course you are also trying to follow the Alqur'aan, the Message from ALLAH. My suggestion in this case is Any information regarding what the Prophet Muhammad is reported to have done, verify it against Alqur'aan. I can't stress that enough. 1736 again.
I noticed your attitude has improved since the start of this thread, which is a good thing to induce a better discussion. Good luck & Salaam,
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Re Studying Alqur'aan, you might be interested in QXP -- Quran as it explained itself by Dr. Shabbir. From his intro
QXP is a Tasreef-based understanding of the Qur?an presented in contemporary English that is easy enough even for teenagers. It is not a literal translation.
Tasreef is the Qur?anic process where verses in one part of the Qur?an explain or provide deeper understanding of the verses in other parts of the Book. Concisely, it means looking at the Qur?an in its Big Picture. The Qur?an,thus, lets us look at its terms and concepts from very diverse vantage points.This is how special care has been taken to explain every verse from within the Qur?an itself. ...
http//www.ourbeacon.com/?cat=8 (you can read it online, the Arabic and the explanation in English, with references to root words etc)
Good luck & Salaam
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Slakm all,
I think that when the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad he should do explain to his companions if he didn't explain to them, then the verse must be interpreted in many segments, or it might be chaotic among the companions about the verses. On the other hand, his companions must asked the Prophet when their had got the questions about the clue of the verses. However, the practiced of the Prophet according to God revealed must be the best pattern of conduct and clear among the companions. I do believe that all the practiced of the prophet must be told and remembered by his companions and would be tradition for centuries after the Prophet passed away. In my opinion Imam Bukhari did a great job in collecting the prophetic traditions. I don?t believe all words of Bukhari, but I read the Qur-an and compared with Bukhari. I realized that when you read the book of Buhkari liken to read the historic book. We have been reading many books since we could read as; Scientific book, business book and etc. But some theories we can get and some we can deny. Allah Stated
"And We have sent down to you the Book with truth, authenticating what is present of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute." (The Message 54
They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say 'In them is great harm, and a benefit for mankind; but their harm is greater than their benefit.' And they ask you how much are they to give, Say 'The excess.' It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think." (The Message 2219)
Can you explain the underlined words?
the first Ayah talks about different religions with different books, he gave us different deens, he could create one religion but he made more then one with different sharia and sunnan but same message.
Jesus said to the Jews that he will allow some of which was forbidden on them in 350
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
the second Ayah talks about harm from them and benefits, the benefits are only benefits in this life, wining in gambling is beneficial for you, you could spend the money on your family the Alcohol would have health benefits, but these things does more harm then benefits so its forbidden.
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Reminder to stranger1990
Also if you want to ask me about anything, I'll be happy to answer them all.
Ok, I'll try to find it.
And reminder to all of us
1823 And never say of anything, "Indeed, I will do that tomorrow,"
1824 Except, "If Allah wills." And remember your Lord when you forget and say, "Perhaps my Lord will guide me to what is nearer than this to right conduct."
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Peace all,
To Stranger 1990, can you convince me that Stoning to Death is God's Punishment for married person who commits Adultery.
And why do you think that when doing so, stoning to death, you are not violating God's Quranic Laws (i.e., Kaffer), and your are not associating with God what He did not reveal in Quran (i.e., Moshirk).
peace TWO Major Sins are committed by Sunni, just for Believing in Stoning to Death. Moshrik and Kaffer will have Eternal Life sentence in Hellfire.a non-Married zani might have an excuse for his crime, but a married zani absolutely has no excuse.
let me ask you something, you know what happened to the people of Lut, but Liwat has no punishment in the Qur'an is it even logical that Allah want to punish zina but won't punish the worst Liwat? Allah says "his day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." how can he complete our religion without telling us about things like Liwat? or because his messenger already did.
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Asalamu alaikum stranger1990 )
How are you? I bet abit stressed with all the questioning. Though i guess you brought on this challenge.. you said something i?d like to comment about
?I'm not studying AlQuran, studying AlQuran will need me to go and attend lectures to scholars and I'll need to spend serious amount of time studying the whole Qur'an
when I don't understand a verse or get confused I check the tafseer of Bin Kathir to understand it better.?
You?re not studying the Quran? Then what makes you believe this is truth? Did you inherit the truth? Is that how it works?
Also you?re sourcing with Ibn kathir. Why do you trust his judgement, out of curiousity? Is it his popularity?
Scholars.. what scholars would you see, hypothetically if you had all the time in the world and money wasn?t an issue? Where are you from? In the sunni world, today?s scholars aren?t revered as the past scholars. How sad ( it must mean we are bound to be corrupt and go to hell ay?
Another thing scholars follow a school of thought however ahlel sunnah wa jama`a are in difference of opinion whether it is a wajeb or not to do taqleed. Majority agree it is necessary. Why is it that with all the madhahab only 4? Do you know much on the history about it? There used to be 100?s of madhahab and as you know all madhabs are right doesn?t it make you think wow if there were hundreds how many opinions were there!? Maybe it doesn?t i don?t know.
So out of curiousity do you follow a madhab? if so, what? If not why not?
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Disagreed. Lets analyse 5/48 again
And We have sent down to thee the Book with truth, confirming what is between its two hands, and assuring it. So judge between them according to what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires, to forsake the truth that has come to thee. To every one We have placed of you a right way and an open road If God had willed, He would have made you one nation; but that He may try you in what has come to you. So be you forward in good works; unto God shall you return, all together; and He will tell you of that whereon you were at variance.
Some points about 5/48
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The book with truth (al-kitab bil haqq) is the Quran itself. Al-quran is 'al-haqq' (41/53) and its the tafseel/detailing of al-kitab (10/37)
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5/48 tells us to judge with al-kitab bil haqq and not their own desires. At this point, it does not tell the reader that other books are included. So its either Quran or your desires.
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To 'every one We have placed of you' (li kulli ja'alnaa minkum) cannot be read as for religious communities (i.e. jews and christians) because the 'you' (kum) here is the same 'kum' is used in the phrase 'made you one nation' ('la ja'aalaKUM ummatan wahidat'. This 'you' if we see 2/213 refers to an-naas/humankind, not three religious groups.
The Quran NEVER approves of 3 religious books. This is a myth.
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But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.
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It was We who revealed the law (to Moses) therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah.s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah.s book, and they were witnesses thereto therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
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We ordained therein for them "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.
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And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him We sent him the Gospel therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
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Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.
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To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
It seems pretty clear to me.
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Hello, I'm a Sunni I challenge all of you to prove one or 2 things to me
1- your sect is the only true one
2- Ahlu Alsunnah Waljammah are false
you can use any time of history, any hadith, anything you want but no mocking, I won't answer anyone mocking.
I hope you accept my challenge and have a nice day.
I challenge you to read the articles in free-minds.org with an open mind.
peace
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It seems pretty clear to me.
In translation, it would seem to favour your views. However, I would ask you to consider these points
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Why would Quran ask you to consider another text when it considers itself fully-detailed (6/114)
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The Quran calls itself 'al-furqan'/the criterion (2/185, 25/1), how would it view ideologies which run contrary to it? Why would it need books which simply confirm what it says?
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5/43 should be read as an extention of 5/41-42 which shows a list of behavioural traits (like listening to lies, consuming the unlawful). It is these people who refuse 'tauraat' wherein God's law. This is in singular btw, 'hukm' not 'ahkaam' in plural. The phrase 'their own law' isnt in there at all.
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5/44 to mention Musa at all. You will never find in Quran anywhere saying Musa recieves 'tauraat'. Furthermore, 6/84-89 mentions a whole group of Prophets (including Musa) and once again, they were all given 'al-kitab' (i.e. God's teachings).
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5/46 mentions Isa being given taurat and injeel. However, in 3/48, we are told that Isa was given 'al-kitab'/the book, 'al-hikmah' as well as taurat and injeel. Al-kitab is the same thing mentioned in 6/84-89 above and Isa is included in that list. How then can taurat and injeel be books?
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9/111 mentions a promise by Allah in tauraat and injeel. This promise is nowhere mentioned in what ppl consider to be Torah and Gospel.
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48/29 mentions two things which would are similitudes in taurat and injeel respectively. Once again, the Torah and Gospel do not have these statements.
We identify signifieds by characteristics of the signifiers, not similar names.
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