My problems with Free-Minds (very long post, please read)
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Peace Amid,
That's pure denial on your part, no more no less. Irrational and unreasonable. The evidence stares you in the face, but you simply don't want Salaat to be a ritual prayer, for whatever reason.
How can I respond to an irrational statement such as yours? I can't.
You may want to try and show me one document/writing/narration/half-a-narration/sentence/half-a-sentence since the beginning of Islamic history that implies Salaat is not worship/ritual prayer. If you can't do so, then I simply can't take you seriously.
"Evidence"? "Irrational"? You are persisting in your appeal to popularity and authority.
I suggest reading up on the links on the logical fallacies, which I gave you.You may want to try and show me one document/writing/narration/half-a-narration/sentence/half-a-sentence since the beginning of Islamic history that implies Salaat is not worship/ritual prayer.
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Define "Islamic history". "Islam" (peacefulness/surrender) is the obligation/system of all of God's prophets (i.e. it started before Muhammad). See 4213.
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I also told you numerous times that it is IRRELEVANT what your beloved Hadith idol says.
If you can't do so, then I simply can't take you seriously. I want evidence, not twisted translations and misinterpretations of Qur'anic verses.
Ahh..I see. When The Reading contradicts your views/challenges them/brings about problems/inconsistencies with the traditional/mainstream understandings, it is a "twisted translation" and a "misinterpretation"...
You don't type the exact phrase "salaat means bond, therefore",
Thanks for acknowledging your lie.
but you certainly do try with all your might to "show" how salaat is not a ritual prayer because the word itself means bond. You even devoted an entire post (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599473.msg231815#msg231815) to explain that salaat means bond, as if that proves anything.
That post was not entirely dedicated to salat. Read carefully - I adressed more than just the salat issue. Anyways, even if it was just dedicated to salat being a bond/commitment, what would be the problem?
I only showed how the interpretation of "salat=prayer" is refuted by The Reading. I also gave you part of my view. Sad-lam-waw is used for a number of things in The Reading, that's why I said it's a general concept and that's why its nonsensical to translate it as "ritual prayer" (in all occurences). I strongly recommend you to re-read my last post where I explained 911-12 as well as the link I gave you which talks about the the things mentioned in the beginning of chapter 9 - especially the salat.
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Peace Amid,
It would seem that you have a problem reading words that are right in front of you. I used the Bible to show that it is exactly like Ahadith. Falsehood mixed with truth. We test what is truth by using the Qur'an.
At least I made you realize that you were wrong and that Jesus divinity is not the same as him being the son of the god and therefore you stopped repeating this. Why don't you do like you say and test the issue of "salat" using the great reading. You can't even answer 3356 and tell us what "salat" means in this passage.
What did I not answer?? LOL laugh Point it out please.
You didn't answer anything of those posts.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599473.msg231810#msg231810
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599473.msg231813#msg231813
You also continue to evade answering this one and even completely deleted it from your quotes
Unable to tell us what the "salat" of the god means, you revert back to your logical fallacy of appeal to popularity (the 30,000 nonsense).
Now answer what the "salat" of the god in 3356 means or have the courage to admit that you don't know instead of evading like you have been doing.
Regarding the prohibited months, every other person has a different opinion, just like Salaat. "Uncertainty" seems to be a very interesting pattern here.
This is a surrender to the fact that your challenge about the restriction period not being known based on the great reading has failed. Your challenge was not about "different opinions", otherwise your false arbitrary timing for the restriction period is also "another opinion". Your challenge was about the question not being feasible to answer or give ANY opinion to begin with based on the great reading.
Also, it is an indisputable fact that each sectarian has a different opinion about "salat"
- It is ritual prayer.
- It is mindlessly parroting "sala allah 3alih" every time someone's name is mentioned.
- It is something else that you have no idea what it is and therefore are unable to answer what it means in 3356.
If there is anyone who is intellectually bankrupt it is individuals like yourself who make Salaat into whatever they want it to be. They are also the ones who make halal haram, and haram halal, and funniest of all they claim to use the Qur'an alone yet they're using outside sources -- translations made by fallible human beings.
This is again a surrender on your part that you have no idea what "salat" of the god means in 3356. When cornered you are beginning to sound like a bearded Mullah and exposing your dogmatic side.
It demonstrates your intellectual bankrupcy and nothing else. Because Salaat can be used in many different ways therefore it cannot be a ritual prayer. That is your "argument," and it's pathetic for crying out loud.
You are building a strawman. It is not about different ways. It is about contradicting meanings even in THE SAME EXACT context where it is clear that the meaning is the same as in 3356 where one time you interpret "salat" to mean "mindlessly parroting "sala allah 3alih"" and the other as some meaning that you ignore and evade telling everyone what it is.
Produce one document, one narration, one simple writing since the beginning of Islamic history that supports your theory.
Why can't you do so?
Face it you have no case.I already did. Whether you like it or not, the great reading is the earliest Islamic document and it supports my theory.
If everyone can see the real Salaat as you claim, then why does almost every other person in the "Qur'an alone" group completely disagree on this matter? LOL!!! rotfl Just by browsing this forum one can see how "certain" you guys are regarding Salaat
Person A) It is a ritual prayer.
Person B) No, it is simply remembering God.
Person C) What are you talking about? Salaat = doing good deeds.
Person D) I disagree, Salaat is charity. I've researched this for a long time.
Person E) You're all wrong, Salaat is simply studying the Qur'an.
Person F) Salaat means "bond", therefore it definitely can't be a ritual (aka progressive1993's argument).
Person G) I have no idea what it is. I've been trying to find out for many years.
And I could go on.The fact is that every creature, including birds know its "salat", unless you want to contest 2441. Even newborn babies know their "salat" as clear from 1931.
You also forgot Person H who is completely confused and thinks "salat" is ritual prayer or mindlessly repeating "sala allah 3alih" or has no idea what it is when it comes, for example, to 3356. )
Also, based on the above you admit that "salat" being "ritual prayer" is just another opinion.
So because it bears similarity to something it automatically means it must be a rip-off? The Bible contains the teaching Eye for an Eye. The Code of Hammurabi contains that teaching too. So by your logic the Bible must have plagarised from the code of Hammurabi. Similarly many concepts in the Qur'an are similar to the Torah, so the author of the Qur'an copied the Torah? LOL
Furthermore, the Sunni Salaat it is not exactly like the Zoroastrian prayer.I could reverse your question and say Are you saying that "rip-offs" bear no similarity?
You forget that your question to Progressive1993 was "why did they change it into a ritual prayer instead of what it really is?"
The most likely answer is that they simply renamed the Geh as "salat" and "Islamcized" it.
This answer is further confirmed by the fact that the earliest Islamic document (the great reading) has no evidence of the 5 daily ritual prayers and even Sunnis admit to this and thus always use it as an argument for why we need Hadiths.
Now instead of changing subjects, you should come to terms with the following
You started this subject and I was simply answering another one of your weak challenges. Of course, when your challenge is defeated you now say that this is not our subject.
You have no evidence to support what you are saying, and therefore you have no case. It's as clear as that. You cannot produce one document throughout history, not only a document but not even one narration, not even a single sentence, not even half a sentence, written anywhere, anytime, from any source, whether deemed authentic, weak, or fabricated, that supports your theory of salaat not being a ritual prayer.
Please come back when you can show me some evidence.I already showed everyone 3356, which is an earlier and more reliable document than any of your Abbasid era Hadiths and you still can't answer and never will. This is all I needed to do because your argument is a fallacious house of card.
Peace,
Ayman
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No fallacy at all. The hadeeth are not a criterion. On the contrary, we test authenticity of hadeeth by using the Qur'an. It would seem the most important things I wrote in my posts went right over your head. In the Bible there is much falsehood, but there's also truth to be found. The fact that you are not able to produce one single writing since the beginning of islamic history that shows the Salaat as something other than a ritual prayer simply doesn't bode well for you.
No on the contrary it's my point that went over your head or maybe you intentionally evaded my point. Here's how you fail my friend
- You state the hadith are not a criterion.
- You state we test the authenticity of the hadeeth by using the Quran.
- Yet your sole premise to support salat being a ritual is based on providing a hadeeth showing salat is NOT a ritual.
Do you see where you fail?? You ask another member to use logic and reason yet you don't yourself.
The quran should be your starting point on what salat is and not vehemently parroting to bring a hadith showing salat is NOT a ritual prayer. Ridiculous!
PEACE
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Peace
What did I not answer?? LOL laugh Point it out please.
What kind of question is this?
Have you even read the following two posts?http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599473.msg231810#msg231810
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599473.msg231813#msg231813
Abdelilah
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The extent to which the appeal to popularity fallacy is being used (in spite of how much a certain poster wants to deny it) is pretty astonishing.
The quran has addressed this, of course
When Moses went to them with our proofs, clear and profound, they said, "This is fabricated magic. We have never heard of this from our ancient ancestors."
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Peace Amid
I have not been posting for a while as it has been a very busy time for me. However, I have to make a quick comment here.
Your position seems to be that salat must mean ritual prayer because every instance in the hadith describes it as ritual prayer & that nowhere in the hadith does it mean anything else.
However when it is shown to you that there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else, you dismiss it by saying "SO WHAT".
I find this position of yours difficult to understand because while you are demanding that someone show you where in the hadith salat means something other than ritual prayer, the proof from the quran on this passes right over your head.
"WHICH HAS MORE AUTHORITY AND HOLDS MORE WEIGHT IN YOUR VIEW? THE QURAN OR THE HADITH?"
If it is the quran, than you must concede that it is obvious that salat can mean something other than ritual prayer.
If it is the hadith, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.
Imraan
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Your position seems to be that salat must mean ritual prayer because every instance in the hadith describes it as ritual prayer & that nowhere in the hadith does it mean anything else.
However when it is shown to you that there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else, you dismiss it by saying "SO WHAT".
I find this position of yours difficult to understand because while you are demanding that someone show you where in the hadith salat means something other than ritual prayer, the proof from the quran on this passes right over your head.
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it. There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer. These people keep showing me instances of how the word Salaat is also used in other ways, as if that shows that our Salaat cannot be a ritual. Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
It seems whatever I say, and no matter how many times I say it, I simply get the same responses over and over again
- Salaat means "bond" and not "prayer."
- Salaat is used in many different ways.
And then they form their conclusion based on those 2 points above that our Salaat absolutely and positively can't be a bond between ourselves and our creator in which we worship him at specific times (a.k.a. "ritual prayer". How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning? I can't.
Fact check "progressive1993", and every other person who isn't fluent in Arabic and claims to follow the "Qur'an alone" is in fact USING OUTSIDE SOURCES
- Arabic dictionaries
- Qur'an translations made by fallible human beings
Therefore this will be my last contribution to this particular thread. In fact, I don't need to say anything at all to demonstrate that you are misguided on this matter. All you have to do is browse through the forum and look at all the different "conclusions" regarding Salaat. The level of uncertainty of those who say they don't need any outside source whatsoever to understand the Qur'an better is simply astonishing. The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Just browse through the forum, mainly the Salaat section. I need not say more.
And may God guide us all.
Best wishes,
Amid -
Salaam,
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it.
Actually it's quite easy to make specific times of something compatible with the Qur'aan -- not a single 'Sunna Hadith' is written before the revelation of Alqur'aan, correct? So no guesswork needed, all that is needed is the information already revealed in Alqur'aan to fit things into.
This is from someone who are still performing the standing-bowing-prostrating meditation (comply with "Fasabbih..." verses anyway, and good as an 'opening' to Quran study -- just make sure you're thinking of nothing else but ALLAH).
I'm on the thought that SalaAt can not be far away from what AlmuSalliyn do (7022-34), if not downright exactly as is. So be warned that SalaAt can not be only the standing-bowing-prostrating prayer in any way. See SalaAt as a system which we should perform continuously/constantly/permanently (7023). A muSalli keeps on racing until the finish line -- otherwise he can't be a muSalli, one who follows the Saabiq (champion, winner) closely.
You've warned others to not leave the ritual, let me warn you and myself and everyone who read this thread that we shall perform these daily
7022 Except AlmuSalliyn,
7023 Those who, they on their SalaAt, are continuing/lasting,
7024 And those who, in their possessions, a right/share known,
7025 For the asker/beggar and the deprived.
7026 And those who confirm with the day of Judgment.
7027 And those who, they, from retribution of their Lord, are afraid/cautious.
7028 Indeed, retribution of their Lord, not safe.
7029 And those who, they, to their private parts, protecting/guarding.
7030 Except on their spouse or maA malakat Aymanuhum, then indeed they are not blamed.
7031 Then whoever wished beyond that, then those, they are the transgressors.
7032 And those who, they, to their deposits/responsibilities and their promises/contracts, are observing.
7033 And those who, they, with their testimonies (shahada), are taking care.
7034 And those who, they on their SalaAt are protecting/guarding.
muSalli = the performer of SalaAt
A muSalli, as we are informed in Alqur'aan, do as above.
If one did all the daily ritual without maintaining all of the above, can he or she be called one of AlmuSalliyn, according to Alqur'aan?
Salaam
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Peace Amid
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it. There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer. These people keep showing me instances of how the word Salaat is also used in other ways, as if that shows that our Salaat cannot be a ritual. Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
Of course ritual prayer could be compatible with quran. I don't disgaree. However, there are many other concepts that could be compatible with quran.
I will put this question to you. Do you agree that salat could be ritual prayer and it could be many other things that would be compatible with quran too?
I don't understand what is funny about "there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else." All I am saying there is that it is quite clear that salat can be viewed as having a much more comprehensive meaning within the quran. The challenge is to find a meaning for the concept that encompasses all instances of the term in the quran. What is funny to me is that you claim that salat is ritual prayer & say that you are going to present it to the forum, but you don't do it. So, either you are not sure of your conclusions (if this is the case, then why not just say it and we can try to understand them together as we normally do on this forum), or you are lying and don't have any real evidence from the quran that salat is exclusively ritual prayer. Either way, please stop wafting around in the wind and be man or woman enough to say, "I don't understand this concept. Let's work it out together." Follow this by presenting your findings without the fear of being wrong. We have all been wrong on many issues on this forum. The key is to work together toward a clearer understanding.
It seems whatever I say, and no matter how many times I say it, I simply get the same responses over and over again
- Salaat means "bond" and not "prayer."
- Salaat is used in many different ways.
And then they form their conclusion based on those 2 points above that our Salaat absolutely and positively can't be a bond between ourselves and our creator in which we worship him at specific times (a.k.a. "ritual prayer". How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning? I can't.
There are many things to discuss on this issue. However those who truly wish to discuss it must make the proper research before doing so. Also while you see the above as faulty reasoning, I could say your reasoning is faulty in the concept of worship. What is worship? Please provide the arabic equivalent of worship in your opinion. Therefore if your reasoning is proved to be faulty on the issue of worship and you use the strength of this to argue against someone else's reasoning, where does this us. Faulty reasoning accusing faulty reasoning of being faulty based on a false premise, etc, etc, etc. All this because no quranic evidence is presented for taking such a stand.
Fact check "progressive1993", and every other person who isn't fluent in Arabic and claims to follow the "Qur'an alone" is in fact USING OUTSIDE SOURCES
- Arabic dictionaries
- Qur'an translations made by fallible human beings
Of course sources outside the quran are used. There is nothing wrong with this. The issue, in my opinion is that we cannot look outside the quran for a source of law. Fluency in arabic has nothing to do with the subject at hand. There are resources available to ascertain the menaings of concepts presented in the quran. And yes these sources are fallible. That is why the quran is there. God employs a concept called tasreef in the quran through which He turns us away from a wrong course we are taking by showing us with untainted clarity the right course. This is why words are repeated within the quran in order to keep the meaning of terms pure and free from the faults of us humans who are fallible. It is only laziness that prevents any of us from understanding what is revealed in the quran. If we are not willing to do what it takes to acquire knowledge on a subject, we shouldn't present it as an inadequacy of God. That is what we do when we accept that God states in the quran that all the necessary details are contained within the quran, yet we feel that documents such as the hadith which have God sanctioned authority need to provide these details. This presents God as a contradictory being.
First answer the question If the hadith is 100% true, even then, can we draw sources of law from it?
Therefore this will be my last contribution to this particular thread. In fact, I don't need to say anything at all to demonstrate that you are misguided on this matter. All you have to do is browse through the forum and look at all the different "conclusions" regarding Salaat. The level of uncertainty of those who say they don't need any outside source whatsoever to understand the Qur'an better is simply astonishing. The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Strange indeed that you choose this as your last contribution when you still haven't presented this ritual salat from the quran you promised. Anyway, I gues when in a corner, we do strange things.
Peace
Imraan
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The fact that you claim that we are "misguided" and "uncertain" and that you keep on continuing in your appeal to popularity is pathetic. When someone provides you with evidence against your point of view, you don't answer or deem it a "misinterpretation". Just because there are disagreements in the points of view around the forum does not mean that anybody here is "uncertain" about the things in The Quran. It is also nonsense that you are portraying people that are using translations and dictionaries as using outside sources for the deen besides The Quran. How else are people going to understand?
4144 Had We made it a non-Arabic reading, they would have said, "If only its signs were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, say, "For those who trust, it is a guide and healing. As for those who reject, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
26198 Had We sent it down upon some of the foreigners,
26199 And had he read it to them, they would not have trusted with it.551 The Almighty
552 Has made known and taught the The Quran.5679 None can grasp it except the pure (of mind/heart).
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salamun alaykum amid and all readers of this post,
perhaps by now everyone should have gotten the message
a. people have minds, and they like to accumulate understandings & opinions
b. people have feels, and they like to accumulate love or hate
c. people have conscience, and they like to act on it personally.if people put their theories (understandings & opinions) into practice, sooner or later they will comprehend (understanding by experience) whether the theories they have understood or opined are correct or otherwise.
"don't try to change anyone to be like you," so said a friend, "for God knows that one of you is enough."
if a reminder is allowed, then our only reminder is, observe, observe, and observe, particularly your very own mind, feel & conscience. that's just one of the many ways of gaining a comprehension on your personal relationship with God.
peace and blessings!
mohammed noh
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Peace Amid,
I noticed that you resort to an appeal to popularity/authority when discussing ahadith, but when it concerns the bible you don't accept the orthodox view? A bit of a double-standard, I think.
Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
Actually this is the funny part
How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning?
You talk of reasoning, yet you resort this time to an appeal to ignorance (aka burden of proof)
There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer.
Prove that Batman doesn't exist. There is no evidence that he does NOT exist, therefore he does! So much for being rational...
The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Using your 'logic' The fact that almost every sect of IslamTM has a different opinion regarding the actions in Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
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Peace Amid,
I noticed that you resort to an appeal to popularity/authority when discussing ahadith, but when it concerns the bible you don't accept the orthodox view? A bit of a double-standard, I think.
Actually this is the funny part
You talk of reasoning, yet you resort this time to an appeal to ignorance (aka burden of proof)
Prove that Batman doesn't exist. There is no evidence that he does NOT exist, therefore he does! So much for being rational...
Using your 'logic' The fact that almost every sect of IslamTM has a different opinion regarding the actions in Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Quranist should also take blame for that since many do not openly declare that there is no specific way to pray from the Quran. They insist that you can by reading the Quran and take their opponents on a wild goose chase.
Everybody here understands charity and faith and sincerity different. And everybody here eats and drinks different. But there is a commanlity between these variances. Same with salaat. The important thing from the Quran is consistency especially during trials and tribulations.
But many insistent on the 2 salat theory, the 3 salat theory and the 5 salat theory and they go through long and ardous debates to find the "holy grail" interpretation to prove their point. This gives the impression that there is a standard salat but they are not able to agrre on it.
Why should there be one? Most people will not be able to answer that except reject it based on tabbo and fear and unfamiliarity.
If we had a TV channel where people can be exposed to Quranist praying this tabbo will be broken. Also some Quranist are sensitive about this issue and tend to give vague answers when asked how do they pray. many probably would never pray in front of people out of insecurity and lack of self confidence.
Taboos are made to be broken. And the best way is to strike at the taboo from the start. Once Sunnis see that you believe that there is a way to pray from the Quran and they see you can not prove it from the Quran, they then use that to say "see, we told you the Quran can not be applied on its own and you need the Sunnah". Ok, let it be. Maybe the Sunnah is prophetic Sunnah but maybe not. We need a TV channel where people can see how Quranist pray differently and yet the sky does not fall in their heads. The the taboo is gone.
All of us who came from a Muslim background initially will struggle with this because our background is very ritualistic and legalistic. In time these things will cease to be a problem. But Quranist need to be upfront about this from the start and not just try to convince others of their point of view sending everyone to a wild goose chase.
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Peace Bigmo and all
Quranist should also take blame for that since many do not openly declare that there is no specific way to pray from the Quran. They insist that you can by reading the Quran and take their opponents on a wild goose chase.
Everybody here understands charity and faith and sincerity different. And everybody here eats and drinks different. But there is a commanlity between these variances. Same with salaat. The important thing from the Quran is consistency especially during trials and tribulations.
But many insistent on the 2 salat theory, the 3 salat theory and the 5 salat theory and they go through long and ardous debates to find the "holy grail" interpretation to prove their point. This gives the impression that there is a standard salat but they are not able to agrre on it.
Why should there be one? Most people will not be able to answer that except reject it based on tabbo and fear and unfamiliarity.
If we had a TV channel where people can be exposed to Quranist praying this tabbo will be broken. Also some Quranist are sensitive about this issue and tend to give vague answers when asked how do they pray. many probably would never pray in front of people out of insecurity and lack of self confidence.
Taboos are made to be broken. And the best way is to strike at the taboo from the start. Once Sunnis see that you believe that there is a way to pray from the Quran and they see you can not prove it from the Quran, they then use that to say "see, we told you the Quran can not be applied on its own and you need the Sunnah". Ok, let it be. Maybe the Sunnah is prophetic Sunnah but maybe not. We need a TV channel where people can see how Quranist pray differently and yet the sky does not fall in their heads. The the taboo is gone.
All of us who came from a Muslim background initially will struggle with this because our background is very ritualistic and legalistic. In time these things will cease to be a problem. But Quranist need to be upfront about this from the start and not just try to convince others of their point of view sending everyone to a wild goose chase.
I agree 100%.
About the TV channel, check out this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598826.0
especially my last post.
We are trying to start something on the net because it is easier to start up. The idea is that our group in South Africa have started broadcasting the one show regularly. From there we want other participants from our national Quran Confernce that was held in August this year to start making contributions by committing to broadcast at least one show per week. We were then going to approach like minded people internationally.
However, because we have 24 hours in a day & many different time zones, maybe we should consider starting this online Quran TV on ustream as an international project and at the same time make investigations into the possibility of obtaining a license for a satelite tv channel that we can reach a broader audience with. If this idea appeals to any of you out there, maybe we should start a thread in the projects section on it.
Imraan
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Peace Bigmo and all
I agree 100%.
About the TV channel, check out this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598826.0
especially my last post.
We are trying to start something on the net because it is easier to start up. The idea is that our group in South Africa have started broadcasting the one show regularly. From there we want other participants from our national Quran Confernce that was held in August this year to start making contributions by committing to broadcast at least one show per week. We were then going to approach like minded people internationally.
However, because we have 24 hours in a day & many different time zones, maybe we should consider starting this online Quran TV on ustream as an international project and at the same time make investigations into the possibility of obtaining a license for a satelite tv channel that we can reach a broader audience with. If this idea appeals to any of you out there, maybe we should start a thread in the projects section on it.
Imraan
Excellent! I hope this project will work and will be inclusive of all Quranist point of view. This is a step in the right direction and I think we should think about this with dedication. One channel is more than enough. Soon other languages will appear. South Africa is a good start since its a free society. But it must be pluralistic with contributions and debates from all walks of life and faith.
We need to move from the net to TV. People seeing Quranist talking and discussing with themselves can do tremendous things once people realize that Quranist don't bite and the sky won't fall on them and that its ok and normal and healthy to have unorthdox views and truth is all relative depending on context.
However Quranist have not shown themselves to be united thus far and most act individually. But we must move towards TV. In today's world where there are hundreds and hundreds of satellite channels, Quranist have no excuse not to have one. But we must try to start a donation campaing and try to see sponsors for our channel. This won't happen unless Quranist feel the channels represent them and not a group among them.
There are lots and lots of Quranist out there but they remain invisible. If we include Christians and Jews and Atheist and others in our discussions and debates, sponsors will come pouring. Remember it does not have to be a fully Quranist channel, but Quranist can have some air time in it like 3 or 4 hours a day. Thats enough for a starter.
Just my 2 cents.
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But they're not consistent. I already stated that they're not consistent in the way how Salaat should be performed, but they're consistent in that Salaat is worship/ritual prayer. All of them, from the most "authentic" ones to the "weak" and "fabricated."
I think that's what I've been saying all along? It's not matter how this worship is performed as long as it doesn't violate the Qur'an (a.k.a setting up partners, etc.). It is a bond where we worship God and remember Him at specific times throughout the day. Some people don't see this by reading the Qur'an, but I do. Now if you're saying that Salaat is something else like "doing good deeds" or some other theory, then no, I would have to disagree there.
Yes we can do it differently, I do it differently and I gave my reasons why. But we can't just do anything we want and slap the name "Salaat" on it. Some people have been saying that "doing good deeds" is Salaat, or simply "remembering God" without doing anything physically at all it "Salaat."
I completely agree. I have said that many times. Doing it the way the hadeeth describe it (or the ways the hadeeth describe it) violates the Qur'an, in my opinion.
I already gave my reasons why in a previous post. Read up on what I said regarding Tashhahud etc.
And God knows best.
Sorry for the late reply. I keep forgetting to check the threads i have written in.
Let me tell you where i am with this.If you want to use hadith to influence the way you uphold salat, then i think it is ok so long as you don't think that they are necessary to use. A hadith is like other books it will have bad in it and good or possibly neither or just one of the two. It is not divine.
I disagree with you on the physical aspect of it.
I am also open to the possibility that salat can mean good deeds as others have posted but i also think that it also means the salat in which we are discussing.Not sure on the times (fajr, esha) as it would not make sense for certain times to be special but still it seems pretty clear in the Q that those are the times. So i will try and stick to those times. I have felt a bit better when upholding at those times. But that could just be my bias or unconcious mind which thinks of the Quran's timing.