My problems with Free-Minds (very long post, please read)
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Peace Amid
I have not been posting for a while as it has been a very busy time for me. However, I have to make a quick comment here.
Your position seems to be that salat must mean ritual prayer because every instance in the hadith describes it as ritual prayer & that nowhere in the hadith does it mean anything else.
However when it is shown to you that there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else, you dismiss it by saying "SO WHAT".
I find this position of yours difficult to understand because while you are demanding that someone show you where in the hadith salat means something other than ritual prayer, the proof from the quran on this passes right over your head.
"WHICH HAS MORE AUTHORITY AND HOLDS MORE WEIGHT IN YOUR VIEW? THE QURAN OR THE HADITH?"
If it is the quran, than you must concede that it is obvious that salat can mean something other than ritual prayer.
If it is the hadith, then I see no reason to continue this discussion.
Imraan
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Your position seems to be that salat must mean ritual prayer because every instance in the hadith describes it as ritual prayer & that nowhere in the hadith does it mean anything else.
However when it is shown to you that there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else, you dismiss it by saying "SO WHAT".
I find this position of yours difficult to understand because while you are demanding that someone show you where in the hadith salat means something other than ritual prayer, the proof from the quran on this passes right over your head.
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it. There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer. These people keep showing me instances of how the word Salaat is also used in other ways, as if that shows that our Salaat cannot be a ritual. Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
It seems whatever I say, and no matter how many times I say it, I simply get the same responses over and over again
- Salaat means "bond" and not "prayer."
- Salaat is used in many different ways.
And then they form their conclusion based on those 2 points above that our Salaat absolutely and positively can't be a bond between ourselves and our creator in which we worship him at specific times (a.k.a. "ritual prayer". How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning? I can't.
Fact check "progressive1993", and every other person who isn't fluent in Arabic and claims to follow the "Qur'an alone" is in fact USING OUTSIDE SOURCES
- Arabic dictionaries
- Qur'an translations made by fallible human beings
Therefore this will be my last contribution to this particular thread. In fact, I don't need to say anything at all to demonstrate that you are misguided on this matter. All you have to do is browse through the forum and look at all the different "conclusions" regarding Salaat. The level of uncertainty of those who say they don't need any outside source whatsoever to understand the Qur'an better is simply astonishing. The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Just browse through the forum, mainly the Salaat section. I need not say more.
And may God guide us all.
Best wishes,
Amid -
Salaam,
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it.
Actually it's quite easy to make specific times of something compatible with the Qur'aan -- not a single 'Sunna Hadith' is written before the revelation of Alqur'aan, correct? So no guesswork needed, all that is needed is the information already revealed in Alqur'aan to fit things into.
This is from someone who are still performing the standing-bowing-prostrating meditation (comply with "Fasabbih..." verses anyway, and good as an 'opening' to Quran study -- just make sure you're thinking of nothing else but ALLAH).
I'm on the thought that SalaAt can not be far away from what AlmuSalliyn do (7022-34), if not downright exactly as is. So be warned that SalaAt can not be only the standing-bowing-prostrating prayer in any way. See SalaAt as a system which we should perform continuously/constantly/permanently (7023). A muSalli keeps on racing until the finish line -- otherwise he can't be a muSalli, one who follows the Saabiq (champion, winner) closely.
You've warned others to not leave the ritual, let me warn you and myself and everyone who read this thread that we shall perform these daily
7022 Except AlmuSalliyn,
7023 Those who, they on their SalaAt, are continuing/lasting,
7024 And those who, in their possessions, a right/share known,
7025 For the asker/beggar and the deprived.
7026 And those who confirm with the day of Judgment.
7027 And those who, they, from retribution of their Lord, are afraid/cautious.
7028 Indeed, retribution of their Lord, not safe.
7029 And those who, they, to their private parts, protecting/guarding.
7030 Except on their spouse or maA malakat Aymanuhum, then indeed they are not blamed.
7031 Then whoever wished beyond that, then those, they are the transgressors.
7032 And those who, they, to their deposits/responsibilities and their promises/contracts, are observing.
7033 And those who, they, with their testimonies (shahada), are taking care.
7034 And those who, they on their SalaAt are protecting/guarding.
muSalli = the performer of SalaAt
A muSalli, as we are informed in Alqur'aan, do as above.
If one did all the daily ritual without maintaining all of the above, can he or she be called one of AlmuSalliyn, according to Alqur'aan?
Salaam
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Peace Amid
No, that is not my position at all. My position is that the tens of thousands of narrations (even the "weak" and "fabricated/inauthentic" ones) depicting Salaat as worshipping God at specific times is compatible with the Qur'an, no matter how you slice it or dice it. There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer. These people keep showing me instances of how the word Salaat is also used in other ways, as if that shows that our Salaat cannot be a ritual. Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
Of course ritual prayer could be compatible with quran. I don't disgaree. However, there are many other concepts that could be compatible with quran.
I will put this question to you. Do you agree that salat could be ritual prayer and it could be many other things that would be compatible with quran too?
I don't understand what is funny about "there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else." All I am saying there is that it is quite clear that salat can be viewed as having a much more comprehensive meaning within the quran. The challenge is to find a meaning for the concept that encompasses all instances of the term in the quran. What is funny to me is that you claim that salat is ritual prayer & say that you are going to present it to the forum, but you don't do it. So, either you are not sure of your conclusions (if this is the case, then why not just say it and we can try to understand them together as we normally do on this forum), or you are lying and don't have any real evidence from the quran that salat is exclusively ritual prayer. Either way, please stop wafting around in the wind and be man or woman enough to say, "I don't understand this concept. Let's work it out together." Follow this by presenting your findings without the fear of being wrong. We have all been wrong on many issues on this forum. The key is to work together toward a clearer understanding.
It seems whatever I say, and no matter how many times I say it, I simply get the same responses over and over again
- Salaat means "bond" and not "prayer."
- Salaat is used in many different ways.
And then they form their conclusion based on those 2 points above that our Salaat absolutely and positively can't be a bond between ourselves and our creator in which we worship him at specific times (a.k.a. "ritual prayer". How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning? I can't.
There are many things to discuss on this issue. However those who truly wish to discuss it must make the proper research before doing so. Also while you see the above as faulty reasoning, I could say your reasoning is faulty in the concept of worship. What is worship? Please provide the arabic equivalent of worship in your opinion. Therefore if your reasoning is proved to be faulty on the issue of worship and you use the strength of this to argue against someone else's reasoning, where does this us. Faulty reasoning accusing faulty reasoning of being faulty based on a false premise, etc, etc, etc. All this because no quranic evidence is presented for taking such a stand.
Fact check "progressive1993", and every other person who isn't fluent in Arabic and claims to follow the "Qur'an alone" is in fact USING OUTSIDE SOURCES
- Arabic dictionaries
- Qur'an translations made by fallible human beings
Of course sources outside the quran are used. There is nothing wrong with this. The issue, in my opinion is that we cannot look outside the quran for a source of law. Fluency in arabic has nothing to do with the subject at hand. There are resources available to ascertain the menaings of concepts presented in the quran. And yes these sources are fallible. That is why the quran is there. God employs a concept called tasreef in the quran through which He turns us away from a wrong course we are taking by showing us with untainted clarity the right course. This is why words are repeated within the quran in order to keep the meaning of terms pure and free from the faults of us humans who are fallible. It is only laziness that prevents any of us from understanding what is revealed in the quran. If we are not willing to do what it takes to acquire knowledge on a subject, we shouldn't present it as an inadequacy of God. That is what we do when we accept that God states in the quran that all the necessary details are contained within the quran, yet we feel that documents such as the hadith which have God sanctioned authority need to provide these details. This presents God as a contradictory being.
First answer the question If the hadith is 100% true, even then, can we draw sources of law from it?
Therefore this will be my last contribution to this particular thread. In fact, I don't need to say anything at all to demonstrate that you are misguided on this matter. All you have to do is browse through the forum and look at all the different "conclusions" regarding Salaat. The level of uncertainty of those who say they don't need any outside source whatsoever to understand the Qur'an better is simply astonishing. The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Strange indeed that you choose this as your last contribution when you still haven't presented this ritual salat from the quran you promised. Anyway, I gues when in a corner, we do strange things.
Peace
Imraan
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The fact that you claim that we are "misguided" and "uncertain" and that you keep on continuing in your appeal to popularity is pathetic. When someone provides you with evidence against your point of view, you don't answer or deem it a "misinterpretation". Just because there are disagreements in the points of view around the forum does not mean that anybody here is "uncertain" about the things in The Quran. It is also nonsense that you are portraying people that are using translations and dictionaries as using outside sources for the deen besides The Quran. How else are people going to understand?
4144 Had We made it a non-Arabic reading, they would have said, "If only its signs were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, say, "For those who trust, it is a guide and healing. As for those who reject, there is deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
26198 Had We sent it down upon some of the foreigners,
26199 And had he read it to them, they would not have trusted with it.551 The Almighty
552 Has made known and taught the The Quran.5679 None can grasp it except the pure (of mind/heart).
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salamun alaykum amid and all readers of this post,
perhaps by now everyone should have gotten the message
a. people have minds, and they like to accumulate understandings & opinions
b. people have feels, and they like to accumulate love or hate
c. people have conscience, and they like to act on it personally.if people put their theories (understandings & opinions) into practice, sooner or later they will comprehend (understanding by experience) whether the theories they have understood or opined are correct or otherwise.
"don't try to change anyone to be like you," so said a friend, "for God knows that one of you is enough."
if a reminder is allowed, then our only reminder is, observe, observe, and observe, particularly your very own mind, feel & conscience. that's just one of the many ways of gaining a comprehension on your personal relationship with God.
peace and blessings!
mohammed noh
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Peace Amid,
I noticed that you resort to an appeal to popularity/authority when discussing ahadith, but when it concerns the bible you don't accept the orthodox view? A bit of a double-standard, I think.
Even you yourself have written in your post there are instances in the quran where the salat clearly means something else. This is indeed very funny.
Actually this is the funny part
How can I respond to that kind of faulty reasoning?
You talk of reasoning, yet you resort this time to an appeal to ignorance (aka burden of proof)
There is no evidence in the Qur'an that our Salaat cannot be a ritual prayer.
Prove that Batman doesn't exist. There is no evidence that he does NOT exist, therefore he does! So much for being rational...
The fact that almost every other person on this forum has a different opinion about Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Using your 'logic' The fact that almost every sect of IslamTM has a different opinion regarding the actions in Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
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Peace Amid,
I noticed that you resort to an appeal to popularity/authority when discussing ahadith, but when it concerns the bible you don't accept the orthodox view? A bit of a double-standard, I think.
Actually this is the funny part
You talk of reasoning, yet you resort this time to an appeal to ignorance (aka burden of proof)
Prove that Batman doesn't exist. There is no evidence that he does NOT exist, therefore he does! So much for being rational...
Using your 'logic' The fact that almost every sect of IslamTM has a different opinion regarding the actions in Salaat is enough evidence (to me) that something is wrong with your position.
Quranist should also take blame for that since many do not openly declare that there is no specific way to pray from the Quran. They insist that you can by reading the Quran and take their opponents on a wild goose chase.
Everybody here understands charity and faith and sincerity different. And everybody here eats and drinks different. But there is a commanlity between these variances. Same with salaat. The important thing from the Quran is consistency especially during trials and tribulations.
But many insistent on the 2 salat theory, the 3 salat theory and the 5 salat theory and they go through long and ardous debates to find the "holy grail" interpretation to prove their point. This gives the impression that there is a standard salat but they are not able to agrre on it.
Why should there be one? Most people will not be able to answer that except reject it based on tabbo and fear and unfamiliarity.
If we had a TV channel where people can be exposed to Quranist praying this tabbo will be broken. Also some Quranist are sensitive about this issue and tend to give vague answers when asked how do they pray. many probably would never pray in front of people out of insecurity and lack of self confidence.
Taboos are made to be broken. And the best way is to strike at the taboo from the start. Once Sunnis see that you believe that there is a way to pray from the Quran and they see you can not prove it from the Quran, they then use that to say "see, we told you the Quran can not be applied on its own and you need the Sunnah". Ok, let it be. Maybe the Sunnah is prophetic Sunnah but maybe not. We need a TV channel where people can see how Quranist pray differently and yet the sky does not fall in their heads. The the taboo is gone.
All of us who came from a Muslim background initially will struggle with this because our background is very ritualistic and legalistic. In time these things will cease to be a problem. But Quranist need to be upfront about this from the start and not just try to convince others of their point of view sending everyone to a wild goose chase.
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Peace Bigmo and all
Quranist should also take blame for that since many do not openly declare that there is no specific way to pray from the Quran. They insist that you can by reading the Quran and take their opponents on a wild goose chase.
Everybody here understands charity and faith and sincerity different. And everybody here eats and drinks different. But there is a commanlity between these variances. Same with salaat. The important thing from the Quran is consistency especially during trials and tribulations.
But many insistent on the 2 salat theory, the 3 salat theory and the 5 salat theory and they go through long and ardous debates to find the "holy grail" interpretation to prove their point. This gives the impression that there is a standard salat but they are not able to agrre on it.
Why should there be one? Most people will not be able to answer that except reject it based on tabbo and fear and unfamiliarity.
If we had a TV channel where people can be exposed to Quranist praying this tabbo will be broken. Also some Quranist are sensitive about this issue and tend to give vague answers when asked how do they pray. many probably would never pray in front of people out of insecurity and lack of self confidence.
Taboos are made to be broken. And the best way is to strike at the taboo from the start. Once Sunnis see that you believe that there is a way to pray from the Quran and they see you can not prove it from the Quran, they then use that to say "see, we told you the Quran can not be applied on its own and you need the Sunnah". Ok, let it be. Maybe the Sunnah is prophetic Sunnah but maybe not. We need a TV channel where people can see how Quranist pray differently and yet the sky does not fall in their heads. The the taboo is gone.
All of us who came from a Muslim background initially will struggle with this because our background is very ritualistic and legalistic. In time these things will cease to be a problem. But Quranist need to be upfront about this from the start and not just try to convince others of their point of view sending everyone to a wild goose chase.
I agree 100%.
About the TV channel, check out this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598826.0
especially my last post.
We are trying to start something on the net because it is easier to start up. The idea is that our group in South Africa have started broadcasting the one show regularly. From there we want other participants from our national Quran Confernce that was held in August this year to start making contributions by committing to broadcast at least one show per week. We were then going to approach like minded people internationally.
However, because we have 24 hours in a day & many different time zones, maybe we should consider starting this online Quran TV on ustream as an international project and at the same time make investigations into the possibility of obtaining a license for a satelite tv channel that we can reach a broader audience with. If this idea appeals to any of you out there, maybe we should start a thread in the projects section on it.
Imraan
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Peace Bigmo and all
I agree 100%.
About the TV channel, check out this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598826.0
especially my last post.
We are trying to start something on the net because it is easier to start up. The idea is that our group in South Africa have started broadcasting the one show regularly. From there we want other participants from our national Quran Confernce that was held in August this year to start making contributions by committing to broadcast at least one show per week. We were then going to approach like minded people internationally.
However, because we have 24 hours in a day & many different time zones, maybe we should consider starting this online Quran TV on ustream as an international project and at the same time make investigations into the possibility of obtaining a license for a satelite tv channel that we can reach a broader audience with. If this idea appeals to any of you out there, maybe we should start a thread in the projects section on it.
Imraan
Excellent! I hope this project will work and will be inclusive of all Quranist point of view. This is a step in the right direction and I think we should think about this with dedication. One channel is more than enough. Soon other languages will appear. South Africa is a good start since its a free society. But it must be pluralistic with contributions and debates from all walks of life and faith.
We need to move from the net to TV. People seeing Quranist talking and discussing with themselves can do tremendous things once people realize that Quranist don't bite and the sky won't fall on them and that its ok and normal and healthy to have unorthdox views and truth is all relative depending on context.
However Quranist have not shown themselves to be united thus far and most act individually. But we must move towards TV. In today's world where there are hundreds and hundreds of satellite channels, Quranist have no excuse not to have one. But we must try to start a donation campaing and try to see sponsors for our channel. This won't happen unless Quranist feel the channels represent them and not a group among them.
There are lots and lots of Quranist out there but they remain invisible. If we include Christians and Jews and Atheist and others in our discussions and debates, sponsors will come pouring. Remember it does not have to be a fully Quranist channel, but Quranist can have some air time in it like 3 or 4 hours a day. Thats enough for a starter.
Just my 2 cents.
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But they're not consistent. I already stated that they're not consistent in the way how Salaat should be performed, but they're consistent in that Salaat is worship/ritual prayer. All of them, from the most "authentic" ones to the "weak" and "fabricated."
I think that's what I've been saying all along? It's not matter how this worship is performed as long as it doesn't violate the Qur'an (a.k.a setting up partners, etc.). It is a bond where we worship God and remember Him at specific times throughout the day. Some people don't see this by reading the Qur'an, but I do. Now if you're saying that Salaat is something else like "doing good deeds" or some other theory, then no, I would have to disagree there.
Yes we can do it differently, I do it differently and I gave my reasons why. But we can't just do anything we want and slap the name "Salaat" on it. Some people have been saying that "doing good deeds" is Salaat, or simply "remembering God" without doing anything physically at all it "Salaat."
I completely agree. I have said that many times. Doing it the way the hadeeth describe it (or the ways the hadeeth describe it) violates the Qur'an, in my opinion.
I already gave my reasons why in a previous post. Read up on what I said regarding Tashhahud etc.
And God knows best.
Sorry for the late reply. I keep forgetting to check the threads i have written in.
Let me tell you where i am with this.If you want to use hadith to influence the way you uphold salat, then i think it is ok so long as you don't think that they are necessary to use. A hadith is like other books it will have bad in it and good or possibly neither or just one of the two. It is not divine.
I disagree with you on the physical aspect of it.
I am also open to the possibility that salat can mean good deeds as others have posted but i also think that it also means the salat in which we are discussing.Not sure on the times (fajr, esha) as it would not make sense for certain times to be special but still it seems pretty clear in the Q that those are the times. So i will try and stick to those times. I have felt a bit better when upholding at those times. But that could just be my bias or unconcious mind which thinks of the Quran's timing.