Why does the Quran matter?
-
My God my God why do you keep replying with scripture which is utter rubbish and makes no sense? Tell me, if a man is virtous, lives a good life and worships God in his own way, will he go to heaven?
An example of 'utter rubbish'
107/1-3
Do you not see those who DENY the religion? Those who REPULSE THE ORPHAN and refuse to FEED THE POOR. -
Sura (855) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Good start, disbelieve in WHAT exactly? As a person who 'lives a virtuous life', I hope your analysis goes deeper than mere cutting and pasting.
As for your OS analogy, terrible. Just terrible. maybe you better stick to the scripture. You can prove that you need an OS because you won`t be able to turn on the PC. There is no way you can prove that humans need your religion. After all, humans have been around for 100,000 years and only 1,500 of them with this corruption on them.
I suspect your definition of 'live a virtuous life' statement does not include the definition of 'having good manners' but no matter..
The PC is our being in the world. We need an OS to operate it. The thing is, can we operate in the best manner possible? People have written books about the OS since the beginning of human civilisation itself but as I said, to a believer, the Quran is the ultimate book on OS. It is your right and perogative to disagree of course.
-
My God my God why do you keep replying with scripture which is utter rubbish and makes no sense? Tell me, if a man is virtous, lives a good life and worships God in his own way, will he go to heaven?
An example of 'utter rubbish'
107/1-3
Do you not see those who DENY the religion? Those who REPULSE THE ORPHAN and refuse to FEED THE POOR.And using scripture which I have already denounced as an answer is rubbish. Can`t you think of an answer for yourself? Are you all so brainwashed that you are unable to think for yourself?
And I regularly donate to charity and take care of stray dogs. oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. Because your book says so and for no other good reason. Why can you not think for yourselves? Pierce the veil, raise the burqah and use your brains which the true God gave you.THINK! Why can you not touch dogs and have them lick your hands as evidence of their real unconditional love for you.
-
Sura (855) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve
Good start, disbelieve in WHAT exactly? As a person who 'lives a virtuous life', I hope your analysis goes deeper than mere cutting and pasting.
As for your OS analogy, terrible. Just terrible. maybe you better stick to the scripture. You can prove that you need an OS because you won`t be able to turn on the PC. There is no way you can prove that humans need your religion. After all, humans have been around for 100,000 years and only 1,500 of them with this corruption on them.
I suspect your definition of 'live a virtuous life' statement does not include the definition of 'having good manners' but no matter..
The PC is our being in the world. We need an OS to operate it. The thing is, can we operate in the best manner possible? People have written books about the OS since the beginning of human civilisation itself but as I said, to a believer, the Quran is the ultimate book on OS. It is your right and perogative to disagree of course.
Oh sorry. I wasn`t aware there was an analysis going on since you guys are just cutting and pasting from verses, so I thought that was the game. After 1500 years you guys still think copy and pasting is the way forward. Way to go guys!
-
And using scripture which I have already denounced as an answer is rubbish. Can`t you think of an answer for yourself? Are you all so brainwashed that you are unable to think for yourself?
Let me recap the argument for you
You claimed the scripture is 'utter rubbish'. Fine.
I'm now asking you if you find helping orphans and feeding the poor 'utter rubbish'? If you do, that's fine.
If you don't (which I hope is the case since you 'live a virtuous life' then why do you denouce this command as 'utter rubbish'?
And I regularly donate to charity and take care of stray dogs. oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. Because your book says so and for no other good reason. Why can you not think for yourselves? Pierce the veil, raise the burqah and use your brains which the true God gave you.THINK! Why can you not touch dogs and have them lick your hands as evidence of their real unconditional love for you.
Dogs are haram? Where does the Quran say this please?
-
Oh sorry. I wasn`t aware there was an analysis going on since you guys are just cutting and pasting from verses, so I thought that was the game. After 1500 years you guys still think copy and pasting is the way forward. Way to go guys!
Try to get a grip on the situation
You quoted the Quran 8/55. Fine, no problem at all.
I'm now asking you WHO the verse is referring to?It's a very simple question. If you don't know, I expect a man who 'lives a virtuous life' like yourself to come forward and admit it. Then we can begin afresh. However, a man who starts ranting about a subject which he knows nothing about (proof he thinks the Quran forbids dogs, lol), a subject which is dear to his fellow human beings (although, I dunno, maybe you don't consider Muslims to be human beings) then I can't say he 'lives a virtuous life', sorry. In fact, the word Hilter and Neo-nazi comes to mind.
-
Tell me, if a man is virtous, lives a good life and worships God in his own way, will he go to heaven?
From where he learnt what is virtuous and what is not virtuous since when he was brought out from moter's womb he do not know anything.
How he detrmined what is good life and what is bad life.
How he knows there is a "God" who should be worshipped?
What is "heaven" and how he thought there is something by the name heaven.
-
Let me recap the argument for you
You claimed the scripture is 'utter rubbish'. Fine.
I'm now asking you if you find helping orphans and feeding the poor 'utter rubbish'? If you do, that's fine.
If you don't (which I hope is the case since you 'live a virtuous life' then why do you denouce this command as 'utter rubbish'?
Dogs are haram? Where does the Quran say this please?
Helping orphans and the poor is morality which predates your religion. We really don`t need your religion to do that, so putting it in verses is just restating existing ideals which will be taught irrespective of religion.
I don`t live a virtous life, I was referring to an ideal type, a hypothetical position for discussion purposes. The fact that you think scripture is necessary for this is utter rubbish. Apologies if there was any insult taken.
Substance over form. You must be aware of how dogs are treated in your religion. Otherwise take a trip down to your bastion of faith. You
ll know youre there when you see no kafir, or kafir buildings of worship. -
I have read the Quran but gave up because it gave little to my life. I prefer to think for myself.
The Quran actually says the same thing, i.e. think for oneself. See the many references here for example
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htm
There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, which the Quran can give to you which you cannot gain with commonsense, morals and education. These are shared values which all humans share. Verses mean nothing. Why should they? Except for hellfire, hatred for infidels and telling me how many women I can marry, there is nothing there which my conscience and commonsense cannot give me.
You are right in one sense, but wrong in another. The Quran has a minimum benchmark, and that is as you allude to, can be discovered without scripture. Things like monotheism and good deeds are not exclusive to any what you call "religion". However, attainment is not a "one level" deal, i.e. one size fits all, there are various degrees. Thus if one wishes to increase this degree within themselves, it would be best to follow guidance sent by the one that made us, and if this happens to be The Quran, then fine, consider what it says.
oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. Because your book says so and for no other good reason. Why can you not think for yourselves?
More evidence of your confusion and/or lack of knowledge
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dogs-allowed-muslims.htmActually, you may wish to read all of the above site, multiple times.
Also, you may be unaware of this, but this forum is primarily filled with people who have an inclination for 'Quran based islam', i.e. not tradition/culture based Islam, there is a big difference, which it seems you are not aware of.
-
From where he learnt what is virtuous and what is not virtuous since when he was brought out from moter's womb he do not know anything.
How he detrmined what is good life and what is bad life.
How he knows there is a "God" who should be worshipped?
What is "heaven" and how he thought there is something by the name heaven.
He read a couple of books maybe. You know there are books apart from yours.
Or maybe he just googled it.
-
He read a couple of books maybe. You know there are books apart from yours.
Or maybe he just googled it.
So you admit the source, to determine what is virtuous and what is not etc, is the Book or books, whether written on paper or computer screen. Am I right in my conclusion?
-
So you admit the source, to determine what is virtuous and what is not etc, is the Book or books, whether written on paper or computer screen. Am I right in my conclusion?
Once again commonsense should prevail. However, when you consider the fact that Mein Kampf is also a book, the determination of what is virtous should be drawn from one`s own conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind should never consider only 1 source as the truth.
-
Helping orphans and the poor is morality which predates your religion. We really don`t need your religion to do that, so putting it in verses is just restating existing ideals which will be taught irrespective of religion.
Listen pal, don't change the subject. The subject is NOT 'can I live without the quran'. I already said that in the Quran, NOWHERE does it put itself as the exclusive source of truth and morality. NOWHERE.
The subject is, 'is the quran utter rubbish'. You claim it is. So I told you what it says about the validity of one's faith and its link to helping orphans and the poor (107/1-3). Do you consider THIS to be utter rubbish?
Please, have the integrity to face the question.
I don`t live a virtous life, I was referring to an ideal type, a hypothetical position for discussion purposes. The fact that you think scripture is necessary for this is utter rubbish. Apologies if there was any insult taken.
Can you please tell me your native language, pal? I need to translate what I posted above (Not only are you as good as any Muslim, Quranically speaking you are a muslim - one who is peaceful with God's 'wiring' of the universe in post #4) into your native language. It seems you don?t understand it.
For such an exclusivist viewpoint, you should go to a 'salafee' website. To them, Islam IS arab culture.
Substance over form. You must be aware of how dogs are treated in your religion. Otherwise take a trip down to your bastion of faith. You
ll know youre there when you see no kafir, or kafir buildings of worship.Sigh?Here is what YOU said
And I regularly donate to charity and take care of stray dogs. oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. [u[Because your book says soand for no other good reason.
Do you see the phrase ?because your book says so?. Now WHERE does my book say so? Notice the title of this thread is ?why does the QURAN matter?.
I wonder why we?re playing ?shift the goalposts? a lot here? Maybe its because we haven't done our research? -
I think it would be very wrong to insult the Quran in such a way for even a kafir like me can appreciate the beauty in it. What I meant was that regarding scripture as truth and the only truth is rubbish. The Quran and Bible are one of many sources of knowledge and morality, nothing more and nothing less. However, there are parts of both, like any book, which contain rubbish.
"Listen pal, don't change the subject. The subject is NOT 'can I live without the quran'. I already said that in the Quran, NOWHERE does it put itself as the exclusive source of truth and morality. NOWHERE.
The subject is, 'is the quran utter rubbish'. You claim it is. So I told you what it says about the validity of one's faith and its link to helping orphans and the poor (107/1-3). Do you consider THIS to be utter rubbish?
Please, have the integrity to face the question".
It does. Every holy book holds itself as the truth and only truth. Please have the integrity to see substance over form, actions and practices of the adherents over 1500 years tell you all you need to know. Let
s not waste time googling examples you know what Im talking about. -
Do you see the phrase ?because your book says so?. Now WHERE does my book say so? Notice the title of this thread is ?why does the QURAN matter?.
I wonder why we?re playing ?shift the goalposts? a lot here? Maybe its because we haven't done our research?Substance over form. Actions speak louder than words. I`m not going to waste time googling an answer. Anyway speaking of integrity. What about the verses I quoted above? Why are they being ignored? Just firming up the goalposts.
-
the determination of what is virtous should be drawn from one`s own conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind should never consider only 1 source as the truth.
In discussion one need not be evasive. How conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is developed? Book(s) or inner illusions/halucination/random thoughts emergingin heart and mind.
-
In discussion one need not be evasive. How conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is developed? Book(s) or inner illusions/halucination/random thoughts emergingin heart and mind.
I am restating answers. Education, morality, parents. What we have today to develop conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is the result of 000
s of years of civilization. I would quote the renaissance, french and american revolution, rise and fall of communism as being key to this. Of course certain parts of the world have yet to have their renaissance which explains why they appear to be 00s of years behind. -
Every holy book holds itself as the truth and only truth.
Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.
-
Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.
Let us now use logic to solve this for surely this is what we have in common. If your book is right, the Hindhu/Christian/Buddhist/every other religious book is wrong. If theirs is right, then yours is wrong. By simple elimination, yours holds itself to be the only one right, by virtue of being unique and therefore different from the rest. Simple logic and reason would prove that only 1 can be right when all have different answers to a question which supposedly has only 1 right answer, hence truth.
-
I am restating answers. Education, morality, parents. What we have today to develop conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is the result of 000
s of years of civilization. I would quote the renaissance, french and american revolution, rise and fall of communism as being key to this. Of course certain parts of the world have yet to have their renaissance which explains why they appear to be 00s of years behind.Again evasive. All what is said is the result of knowledge and experience. Both are passed on ONLY through the book(s). Anything beyond the books is treated as gossip and conjectures, at best opinions. What makes one to hesitate to accept in straight words that the source of Knowledge is the book and it is knowledge that shapes everything else.
