Why does the Quran matter?
-
Let me recap the argument for you
You claimed the scripture is 'utter rubbish'. Fine.
I'm now asking you if you find helping orphans and feeding the poor 'utter rubbish'? If you do, that's fine.
If you don't (which I hope is the case since you 'live a virtuous life' then why do you denouce this command as 'utter rubbish'?
Dogs are haram? Where does the Quran say this please?
Helping orphans and the poor is morality which predates your religion. We really don`t need your religion to do that, so putting it in verses is just restating existing ideals which will be taught irrespective of religion.
I don`t live a virtous life, I was referring to an ideal type, a hypothetical position for discussion purposes. The fact that you think scripture is necessary for this is utter rubbish. Apologies if there was any insult taken.
Substance over form. You must be aware of how dogs are treated in your religion. Otherwise take a trip down to your bastion of faith. You
ll know youre there when you see no kafir, or kafir buildings of worship. -
I have read the Quran but gave up because it gave little to my life. I prefer to think for myself.
The Quran actually says the same thing, i.e. think for oneself. See the many references here for example
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/religion-science-reason-compatible.htm
There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING, which the Quran can give to you which you cannot gain with commonsense, morals and education. These are shared values which all humans share. Verses mean nothing. Why should they? Except for hellfire, hatred for infidels and telling me how many women I can marry, there is nothing there which my conscience and commonsense cannot give me.
You are right in one sense, but wrong in another. The Quran has a minimum benchmark, and that is as you allude to, can be discovered without scripture. Things like monotheism and good deeds are not exclusive to any what you call "religion". However, attainment is not a "one level" deal, i.e. one size fits all, there are various degrees. Thus if one wishes to increase this degree within themselves, it would be best to follow guidance sent by the one that made us, and if this happens to be The Quran, then fine, consider what it says.
oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. Because your book says so and for no other good reason. Why can you not think for yourselves?
More evidence of your confusion and/or lack of knowledge
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dogs-allowed-muslims.htmActually, you may wish to read all of the above site, multiple times.
Also, you may be unaware of this, but this forum is primarily filled with people who have an inclination for 'Quran based islam', i.e. not tradition/culture based Islam, there is a big difference, which it seems you are not aware of.
-
From where he learnt what is virtuous and what is not virtuous since when he was brought out from moter's womb he do not know anything.
How he detrmined what is good life and what is bad life.
How he knows there is a "God" who should be worshipped?
What is "heaven" and how he thought there is something by the name heaven.
He read a couple of books maybe. You know there are books apart from yours.
Or maybe he just googled it.
-
He read a couple of books maybe. You know there are books apart from yours.
Or maybe he just googled it.
So you admit the source, to determine what is virtuous and what is not etc, is the Book or books, whether written on paper or computer screen. Am I right in my conclusion?
-
So you admit the source, to determine what is virtuous and what is not etc, is the Book or books, whether written on paper or computer screen. Am I right in my conclusion?
Once again commonsense should prevail. However, when you consider the fact that Mein Kampf is also a book, the determination of what is virtous should be drawn from one`s own conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind should never consider only 1 source as the truth.
-
Helping orphans and the poor is morality which predates your religion. We really don`t need your religion to do that, so putting it in verses is just restating existing ideals which will be taught irrespective of religion.
Listen pal, don't change the subject. The subject is NOT 'can I live without the quran'. I already said that in the Quran, NOWHERE does it put itself as the exclusive source of truth and morality. NOWHERE.
The subject is, 'is the quran utter rubbish'. You claim it is. So I told you what it says about the validity of one's faith and its link to helping orphans and the poor (107/1-3). Do you consider THIS to be utter rubbish?
Please, have the integrity to face the question.
I don`t live a virtous life, I was referring to an ideal type, a hypothetical position for discussion purposes. The fact that you think scripture is necessary for this is utter rubbish. Apologies if there was any insult taken.
Can you please tell me your native language, pal? I need to translate what I posted above (Not only are you as good as any Muslim, Quranically speaking you are a muslim - one who is peaceful with God's 'wiring' of the universe in post #4) into your native language. It seems you don?t understand it.
For such an exclusivist viewpoint, you should go to a 'salafee' website. To them, Islam IS arab culture.
Substance over form. You must be aware of how dogs are treated in your religion. Otherwise take a trip down to your bastion of faith. You
ll know youre there when you see no kafir, or kafir buildings of worship.Sigh?Here is what YOU said
And I regularly donate to charity and take care of stray dogs. oh but I forgot, to you dogs, who are the most loving, loyal and affectionate animals on the planet, are haram. [u[Because your book says soand for no other good reason.
Do you see the phrase ?because your book says so?. Now WHERE does my book say so? Notice the title of this thread is ?why does the QURAN matter?.
I wonder why we?re playing ?shift the goalposts? a lot here? Maybe its because we haven't done our research? -
I think it would be very wrong to insult the Quran in such a way for even a kafir like me can appreciate the beauty in it. What I meant was that regarding scripture as truth and the only truth is rubbish. The Quran and Bible are one of many sources of knowledge and morality, nothing more and nothing less. However, there are parts of both, like any book, which contain rubbish.
"Listen pal, don't change the subject. The subject is NOT 'can I live without the quran'. I already said that in the Quran, NOWHERE does it put itself as the exclusive source of truth and morality. NOWHERE.
The subject is, 'is the quran utter rubbish'. You claim it is. So I told you what it says about the validity of one's faith and its link to helping orphans and the poor (107/1-3). Do you consider THIS to be utter rubbish?
Please, have the integrity to face the question".
It does. Every holy book holds itself as the truth and only truth. Please have the integrity to see substance over form, actions and practices of the adherents over 1500 years tell you all you need to know. Let
s not waste time googling examples you know what Im talking about. -
Do you see the phrase ?because your book says so?. Now WHERE does my book say so? Notice the title of this thread is ?why does the QURAN matter?.
I wonder why we?re playing ?shift the goalposts? a lot here? Maybe its because we haven't done our research?Substance over form. Actions speak louder than words. I`m not going to waste time googling an answer. Anyway speaking of integrity. What about the verses I quoted above? Why are they being ignored? Just firming up the goalposts.
-
the determination of what is virtous should be drawn from one`s own conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind should never consider only 1 source as the truth.
In discussion one need not be evasive. How conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is developed? Book(s) or inner illusions/halucination/random thoughts emergingin heart and mind.
-
In discussion one need not be evasive. How conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is developed? Book(s) or inner illusions/halucination/random thoughts emergingin heart and mind.
I am restating answers. Education, morality, parents. What we have today to develop conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is the result of 000
s of years of civilization. I would quote the renaissance, french and american revolution, rise and fall of communism as being key to this. Of course certain parts of the world have yet to have their renaissance which explains why they appear to be 00s of years behind. -
Every holy book holds itself as the truth and only truth.
Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.
-
Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.
Let us now use logic to solve this for surely this is what we have in common. If your book is right, the Hindhu/Christian/Buddhist/every other religious book is wrong. If theirs is right, then yours is wrong. By simple elimination, yours holds itself to be the only one right, by virtue of being unique and therefore different from the rest. Simple logic and reason would prove that only 1 can be right when all have different answers to a question which supposedly has only 1 right answer, hence truth.
-
I am restating answers. Education, morality, parents. What we have today to develop conscience and a reasonable and enlightened mind is the result of 000
s of years of civilization. I would quote the renaissance, french and american revolution, rise and fall of communism as being key to this. Of course certain parts of the world have yet to have their renaissance which explains why they appear to be 00s of years behind.Again evasive. All what is said is the result of knowledge and experience. Both are passed on ONLY through the book(s). Anything beyond the books is treated as gossip and conjectures, at best opinions. What makes one to hesitate to accept in straight words that the source of Knowledge is the book and it is knowledge that shapes everything else.
-
Please quote just one book, other than Qur'aan, wherein this claim is made by the book itself and is recorded therein. If you cannot find then please withdraw your generalized statement. Pl note we are talking with reference to book and not the gossip of people and writers.
Let us now use logic to solve this for surely this is what we have in common. If your book is right, the Hindhu/Christian/Buddhist/every other religious book is wrong. If theirs is right, then yours is wrong. By simple elimination, yours holds itself to be the only one right, by virtue of being unique and therefore different from the rest. Simple logic and reason would prove that only 1 can be right when all have different answers to a question which supposedly has only 1 right answer, hence truth.
From specifics you take me to bewilderness. I did not say that I say Qur'aan is right or unique. I am not talking about my claim and claim of other people. In response to your statement I requested to quote the claim of the book not of people.
-
Again evasive. All what is said is the result of knowledge and experience. Both are passed on ONLY through the book(s). Anything beyond the books is treated as gossip and conjectures, at best opinions. What makes one to hesitate to accept in straight words that the source of Knowledge is the book and it is knowledge that shapes everything else.
Books are written sources of knowledge. Books must always be scrutinised, challenged, amended for mistakes. Once errors are discovered, the book must be discarded and a new one produced. See physics, chemistry and biology for books on the truth. These books are changed all the time as we discover that what once was considered to be true is actually false. To truly consider it a source of knowledge, the book must be open to change and revision. This which cannot must surely be discarded.
-
From specifics you take me to bewilderness. I did not say that I say Qur'aan is right or unique. I am not talking about my claim and claim of other people. In response to your statement I requested to quote the claim of the book not of people.
I don
t understand your bewilderness. It does not matter what you say. Again a call for logic and reasoning. If Book A claims that there is one God and A is its prophet, and Book B claims that there are 2 Gods and B is the prophet, regardless of what you say or think, only 1 can be true. Whether you claim it or not is irrelevant. It claims to be the only truth purely by claiming to be the truth, which is different from other truths. Therefore, by definition there can only be one truth. Is that hard to understand? -
Books are written sources of knowledge. Books must always be scrutinised, challenged, amended for mistakes. Once errors are discovered, the book must be discarded and a new one produced. See physics, chemistry and biology for books on the truth. These books are changed all the time as we discover that what once was considered to be true is actually false.
So We agree that books are the source of knowledge. Hence, would you agree, they need not and should not be considered as rubbish on face value. They should be read critically, statements recorded therein be subjected to scrutiny and ground realities to differentiate whether the statement is a fact or mere conjecture/opinion not worth of considered as truth. If one statement of any book is found against the fact, it shall put every other statement contained therein as doubtful.
You asked me to see physics, chemistry, biology for books on the "truth". And immediately after you stated these books arechanged all the time....is actually false. On this argument how can you be sure that what is written in those today will not be discarded as false? If not why you wish to cheat yourself by the opinionated "truth" of today and falsity of tomorrow.To truly consider it a source of knowledge, the book must be open to change and revision. This which cannot must surely be discarded.
Do you differentiate between opinion, truth and fact?
-
I don
t understand your bewilderness. It does not matter what you say. Again a call for logic and reasoning. If Book A claims that there is one God and A is its prophet, and Book B claims that there are 2 Gods and B is the prophet, regardless of what you say or think, only 1 can be true. Whether you claim it or not is irrelevant. It claims to be the only truth purely by claiming to be the truth, which is different from other truths. Therefore, by definition there can only be one truth. Is that hard to understand?Request was limited to substantiate your claim that every holy book claims that it is truth and only truth. Which book is that which has made this tall claim, forget about other statements of one or two or three gods or many many gods.
-
Hello, Peace,
Why does the quran matter? What if a person believes in God and not in any of the other requirements of Islam? what if I believe in God, live a virtous life, eat pork and drink alcohol (but don`t commit crimes).. Am I not as good a person as any Muslim? Look at what the Quran teaches
Hatred of the infidel
Hatred of anybody who does not belive in the Quran
Disrespect for anybody who does not belive in what the Quran wants
Disregard for the beliefs of any person who has an opinion different to the QuranIt`s clear that Islam is a political ideology which has hijacked a religion. There is no peace in Islam until all others have been conquered, then there is peace with the vanquished Dhimi. Think for yourselves. The greatest power a human has is the ability to think. Islam is just another paradigm which limits the ability of your thoughts to reach outside of the box to find the truth. Think about it. Why do you need to care about what the Quran or even the bible wants? If you truly are a free mind, then why do you need to restrict your life? You know what is right and wrong, not from the Quran but from common sense, from what your parents teach you. Conscience is the highest form of justice, not some book. Your heart will tell you whether your actions are right or wrong. Your conscience will guide you over whether you have done the right or wrong thing. If you feel that eating pork is wrong, then it is wrong. If you feel that eating chicken is wrong, then it is wrong. What do you need the Quran for?
I guess you are describing the man-made religion called sunnism, or christianism, or judaism, or whatever human has invented as The Religion.
God left us here on this planet to find the truth by ourselves. He did not send prophets to tell us why would he need to do that when he could easily make us all aware of it in a heartbeat? The words of the prophets are the product of fear, ignorance and insanity. Search your hearts for the truth. Think for yourselves. Worship god, live a virtous life, love your fellow man. Ignore the divise and hate inducing Quran and Bible which hijack the truth and God
s name for political gain. Ignore the insanity. Live a good life and when you face god, tell Him that you have done your best in life and surely his mercy will be with you. God gave you consciousness and thought so you could think for yourselves. Us it and you will find the truth. Think. Think. Why does God care whether you eat pork, drink alcohol if you are able to do so in moderation? Its because god didn`t ask you to. Man did. Man in all his pomp and delusions of immortality felt that he could interpret the word of God. The words of man who are trying to fool you into believing that this is the word of God.Live your lives in peace and live well. Don`t care about what the holy books and the priests and imans who have pulled the cloth over the eyes of the world want. When you meet your maker, tell him you have lived a good life and surely the Gates of Paradise will be open for you. Do not accept this religion which makes you hate your fellow man, and makes your fellow man hate you. We no longer need religion as we are able to think for ourself. And for those who are unable to do so, the law will deal with them. Think for yourselves and reject the falsehoods which religions force onto you.
Well, in a way you are right, you don't need any book to live a righteous life, full of moral etc etc.
But, then what is the goal of your life, what is the purpoise, why are you here on earth?
You will not be able to answer this question without The Book. You can try to answer, but surely it will be only suppositions based on conjectures.Peace
-
Dear Humanist,
Great views, but the problem is, the world has boundaries, people have differences, If everyone started living according to his own conscious of right and wrong, the result will not be good, the world had faced such things before and we need great people/visionaries to give great ideas/thoughts to unite people under some common good.Even after so many discoveries and development, we still don't have a perfect system without problems, every society has their problems and people still suffer, countries/people still make profit selling mass destruction weapons or fight for control of resources or dominance.
Still every country believes that Nuclear weapons make them mighty and strong, that shows how cruel this world is.
There's inequality everywhere, Equal works are not rewarded equally, Some are still working like slaves and some lead a lavish lifestyle sucking the bloods of those others who doesn't have the opportunity.Many of the things you consider as Islam comes from the Hadiths (History book of Mohammed) and from the kingdoms that used these false history(History) to implement their own rigid ideas and rules for their selfish gains, These kind of things happens even now as we can see how democracy and capitalism hijacked by America for their selfish gains and how thousands of innocents killed in the name of war against terrorism.
Coming to Quran, Quran doesn't have any miracle,
I think, Quran or any other previous scriptures doesn't teach us how to live. Its a message of oneness of GOD,there is one GOD for everyone so don't fight among yourself and make peace (ISLAM). Everything else in Quran is for Mohammed and the people around him that day for solving their problems according to the prevailing conditions then and many here analyse those and get signs to lead a better life and they dont want to associate themselves with main stream so called rigid muslims.I know that I will get the guidance from GOD by doing good and seek guidance with patience, a Quranic message.
