al Masjid al Haram and al Masjid al Aqsa

raginggaijin

Peace all,

Allah denounces Ka'aba as Masjidul Haram in 9 107 and forbids us not to stand in that Masjid ever in the very next ayat, 9 108

9 107
The Guardians of the Mosque will indeed swear that their intention of erecting Ka'aba, the masjid is nothing but for good; But Allah does declare that they are certainly liars. So never stand in it.

It is very evident from the provisos in the ayat that helps us envisage it is none other than the Ka'aba itself. The provisions why we conclude as such is

The Guardians of Ka'aba have caused at most damage to the path of Islalm
They cause maximum hindrance to the adherents of the straight path in their following Allah and His Messengers.
They are the ones who even today cause disruption into sects; and sectarian dissension in the otherwise single unified community.
They quit Allah and His Messengers and speak against quran; instead they embrace hadith making Ka'aba, a shelter who are thus enemies of Allah and His Messengers.

Surah 9107 speaks of the Temple in Jerusalem.

"And those who built a mosque to cause harm and disbelief, and to cause disunion among the believers, and a refuge for him who made war against Allah and His Messenger before. And they will certainly swear We desired naught but good. And Allah bears witness that they are certainly liars." Surah 9107 Maulana Ali

"And there are those who put up a mosque by way of mischief and infidelity - to disunite the Believers - and in preparation for one who warred against Allah and His Messenger aforetime. They will indeed swear that their intention is nothing but good; but Allah doth declare that they are certainly liars." Surah 9107 Yusuf Ali

"There are some who have built a Mosque for mischief and for infidelity, and to disunite the faithful, and in expectation of him who, in time past, warred against God and His Apostle. They will surely swear, "Our aim was only good" but God is witness that they are liars. " Surah 9107 Rodwell

"And those who have taken a mosque in opposition and unbelief, and to divide the believers, and as a place of ambush for those who fought God and His Messenger aforetime -- they will swear 'We desired nothing but good'; and God testifies they are truly liars." Surah 9107 Arberry

"Waallatheena ittakhathoo masjidan diraran wakufran watafreeqan bayna almu/mineena wa-irsadan liman haraba Allaha warasoolahu min qablu walayahlifunna in aradna illa alhusna waAllahu yashhadu innahum lakathiboona" Surah 9107 (Arabic transliteration)

No mention of Kaaba in Surah 9107.

Scripture Prophesy The rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem will herald the coming of the son of perdition, the abomination that enters the Temple. It is common knowledge the Jews have the cornerstone(s) ready, the garments made, the crown created, for the day when the Temple is rebuilt. But the first Temple needs to be destroyed first.

You should know this. It is the qiblah of the Jews as shown in I Kings 822-44 The Temple of Solomon.

Al-Aqsa Mosque.

Peace.

Cushan

I don't think there's a specific Mosque intended. I think it means general sectarianism.

"...and as an refuge for those who fought against Allah and His messenger previously."

It wasn't only the Jews who warred against the Prophet. What about the Persians, Arabs, Romans, etc? I think it could refer to any who dissimulate and create sects.

As for the original topic, before Islam there was the concept of earthly temple and supernal temple. If I had to hazard a guess I'd interpret Aqsa in that context.

And the elephant in the room when it comes to Mecca is that it sounds a lot like Mormons who claim that Jerusalem is in Utah and Eden is in Missouri. Even Muslims who live in Palestine and Egypt and Iraq tell the same traditions that Jews and Christians tell. The idea that Mecca and Medina were primordial holy sites isn't supported.

herbman

Peace all,

I was just wondering something maybe if someone can argue for or against it, could help for the debate.

What do you think about the idea of "Masjid Al Haram" is something temporary, I mean the place where during the "haram" months occur the Hajj?

And during the rest of the year it is just "masjid", cause no special interdiction has to be applied.

Peace

raginggaijin

Peace all,

I was just wondering something maybe if someone can argue for or against it, could help for the debate.

What do you think about the idea of "Masjid Al Haram" is something temporary, I mean the place where during the "haram" months occur the Hajj?

And during the rest of the year it is just "masjid", cause no special interdiction has to be applied.

Peace

Interesting theory. Where is your proof to back up this theory?

Peace.

herbman

Salam, Peace to all,

2 things

1- either "Masjid Al Haram" is a construction/building, and then the Great Reading doesn't tell us much about the location, and therefore details are missing in the Great Reading!
2- either "Masjid Al Haram" is not a construction/building and all the details are in the Great Reading, we just need to open our mind and forget about our "influenced" background.

My personnal choice is the second one.
Then searching/studying a bout the word Masjid.
Masjid comes from Ma+Sajada--> a deep study of sajada demonstarte SAJADA means more than likely "obedience with humility"

"Masjid Al Haram" is translated by some "Instution of the obedience of the Restriction" then a problem occur, how would you explain "MASSAJID", are there many "Institutions of Obedience"?

My understanding is if MASJID would mean a "state of obedience" rather than "Institution of Obedience" then the plural would fit perfectly as the "states of Obedience".

What are these "states"? This can be answered by the Great Reading by looking the occurences of SAJADA.
SAJADA is the action, when masjid is the state.

1- state - Devotion at night
3113

Not all of them are alike of the People of the book are a portion that stand (for the right); they rehearse the signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.

3114
They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works; they are in the ranks of the righteous.

2- state/ Accomplish the salat

4102-4103

3-state "follow the God's commands"
4153-154
The sabat for the bani Israel

4- state
711-12
The Angels

5- state " Belive in Rabi Al alameen"
7120-121 (First state)
But the sorcerers fell down prostrate (sajidoona) in adoration.
Saying "we believe in the Lord of the worlds.

6- state "Believe in the verses of God"
17106-107

As we can see here these are the different states, now come the "Masjid Al Haram".

This is a state described/mentionned in the Great Reading in the context of Hajj see 2144, 2149, 2150, 2191, 2196
As Hajj is to be performed during the "restriction" month see 597, then the "Masjid of Restrictions" is the state where one apply these restrictions on him.

In 2187 we can see one of the restriction to be applied

......
......but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in MASSAJIDA. Those are limits (set by) Allah; approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His signs to men that they may learn self-restraint.

I cannot answer to whom this restriction in 2187 has to be applied to the one making hajj, the one who fast, all mumeen, all muslim? I don't know!

Please comment.

raginggaijin

Salam, Peace to all,

2 things

1- either "Masjid Al Haram" is a construction/building, and then the Great Reading doesn't tell us much about the location, and therefore details are missing in the Great Reading!

You are kidding, right?

"Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty." Surah 2240

Check the original Arabic for the names of these structures. Guess what a Mosque is called.

The original Arabic in Surah 2 142-150 states 'Masjid Al-Haram'.

The Sacred Mosque.

We are to face Masjid Al-Haram, the Sacred Mosque. Surah 2144,149,150. Allah tells us this three (3) times.
Allah tells us three (3) times "This is truth from thy Lord, so be thou not of the doubters." Surah 2144,147,149

http//che.sharif.ir/~ehsan_tavakkoli/masjid_al_haram.jpg

See the structure that surrounds the Kaaba? That is Masjid Al-Haram.

Surah 2225-33 differentiates between Masjid Al-Haram and Bayt Al-Haram. The Kabah is called Bayt (2226), Ancient House/Bayt Atiq (2229) and we are told it is okay to go around the House. We do not go around Masjid Al-Haram.

Allah makes sure we know the Kaaba is known as the Sacred House in Surah 597. The Kaaba is a place of congregation and sacrifice (595).
You cannot live in the Kaaba, but families live(d) in Masjid Al-Haram. Surah 2196, 2225, 2791, 2967, 4824

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158

The Farthest Mosque in Surah 171 is Masjid Al-Aqsa.
The Al-Aqsa Mosque is located in Jerusalem. This Mosque was called the Temple of Solomon by the Knights Templar during the Crusade, for the Temple stood where the Mosque stands today.

http//hamzajennings.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Al_Aqsa.jpg

See that large structure that starts with the Wailing Wall and goes all the way back, with the Dome of the Rock inside? That entire structure. That is Masjid Al-Aqsa.

The Children of Israel were given the Temple of Solomon, Masid Al-Aqsa, as their qiblah I Kings 822-44, Surah 171, 174-7, 9107
Daniel faced Jerusalem Dan. 610

May Allah pour down patience upon the believers from Most High.

Peace.

ayman

Peace Raging,

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158
Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158

Can you please underline in 2158 where it says that "Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram"? If you can't then delete the reference to 2158 after your statement since 2158 clearly doesn't say that no matter how wild someone's imagination is.

Peace,

Ayman

raginggaijin

Peace Raging,

Can you please underline in 2158 where it says that "Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram"? If you can't then delete the reference to 2158 after your statement since 2158 clearly doesn't say that no matter how wild someone's imagination is.

Peace,

Ayman

You read the Quran and it states Safa and Marwa are sign posts for the believer. True or false, ayman?

Here, let me repost the ayat for you since you must have missed it.

"Safa and Marwah are signs of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158

You look where Safa and Marwa are and they are two mountains partially enclosed by Masjid Al-Haram.

http//tinyurl.com/ycqwokz

Now was that so hard?

So the statement still stands

Safa and Marwah are two small mountains that are partially enclosed now by Masjid Al-Haram Surah 2158

If you did your research you would have known that.

Allah gave you a brain and a slew of resources at your fingertips. Use them

Peace.

CavemanDoctor

Peace raging,

No need for the tone. We're all here discussing in peace. To the content of your post, your assumption is that Safa/Marwa/Masjid Al-Haram/etc., in their present states, are what was described at the time of revelation. Were these mountains/structures there when the verses were revealed? Or were they later built and their meanings retrospectively 'attached' to the verses? I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.

raginggaijin

Peace raging,

No need for the tone. We're all here discussing in peace.

No, not all the time. Ayman receives as he gave.

I am gentle towards the believers, not those seeking to deceive.

I bring proofs to back up what I believe. Where is Ayman's?

Explanation is not proof.

To the content of your post, your assumption is that Safa/Marwa/Masjid Al-Haram/etc., in their present states, are what was described at the time of revelation. Were these mountains/structures there when the verses were revealed? Or were they later built and their meanings retrospectively 'attached' to the verses? I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.

The question I ask you is this Do you believe Allah is All Knowing, Omniscient, Seer? Do you? Yes or no.

Do you believe what is put in the Quran and what is in the world today were meant to confuse the believer or is it clear?

Then I give you this

"And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299

What is a sign/monument/beacon/waymark?
Are Safa and Marwa signs/monuments/beacons?
Keyword Pilgrimage. House.

""Safa and Marwah (alssafa waalmarwata) are signs (shaAAa-iri) of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158

Reference the original Arabic Quran in Surah 2198 and Surah 2158 for sign/monument/beacon/waymark (almashAAari).

It's not rocket surgery.

You are saying that people created two small mountains in an attempt to deceive the majority. This is a formidable task, even in this day. Is that what you are saying has occurred? Am I understanding you correctly?

You can put that forth to our Creator on Judgment Day if you desire, but I would be hard pressed to offer to anyone else that theory without proof they are man-made or did not exist 1400 years ago.

So if that is your claim, where is your proof?

Repeat after me Explanation is not proof.

I believe in the Quran; all of it. I believe it is a revelation from our Creator and a guidance for the believer.

I am not your guardian nor am I responsible for you or anyone else. To me are my works and to you are yours. Let those who come behind read and make their own decisions based on what is offered before them. They can either follow the fancy stories and explanations, or they can follow the proofs provided from the Quran and in the world we live in.

"Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement." Surah 2174

Bear witness I submit to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

Peace.

thegod

@cavemandoctor I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.

Is that some kind of "proof" vis-a-vis raginggaijin's "assumption"?

What's your authority or authenticity?

CavemanDoctor

No, not all the time. Ayman receives as he gave.

I am gentle towards the believers, not those seeking to deceive.

I bring proofs to back up what I believe. Where is Ayman's?

Again, you need to calm down a bit, brother. Why get so defensive? We're simply discussing an issue from the quran; there's absolutely no need to call someone who disagrees with you as someone "seeking to deceive" and implying the person is not a believer. It is improper and detracts from your argument. Just some friendly advice.

Explanation is not proof.

The question I ask you is this Do you believe Allah is All Knowing, Omniscient, Seer? Do you? Yes or no.

Do you believe what is put in the Quran and what is in the world today were meant to confuse the believer or is it clear?

Then I give you this

"And certainly We have revealed to you clear communications and none disbelieve in them except the transgressors." Surah 299

This is a more complex question than you are letting on. The message of the quran is abundantly clear, agreed. It is quite a leap of faith, however, to say that core message of the quran being clear somehow precludes the existence of verses the interpretations of which reasonable people can disagree on. Not every single issue mentioned in the quran is "simple." Surely you realize this. The quran itself mentions this, of course (37, mutashabihat). This has nothing to do with Allah being All-Knowing. Clearly Allah knows what safa and marwa refers to, etc. But we, as human believers, often have to study the quran to remove the shackles traditionalists have put upon the scripture in their intentional hijacking.

It is entirely plausible that the hypocrites the quran speaks of so often, hijacked the meanings of many of the verses/issues in the quran, to promote their agenda. Of course, history bears this out. These hypocrites knew they couldn't change the text of the scripture itself so instead they institutionalized certain ideas and forcibly attached those interpretations onto verses, thereby removing any distinction between the text itself and the supposed meaning they attached to the text. It is quite obvious this has happened with many of the concepts surrounding the hajj. And it is with this framework that ayman and many of us here approach the issue. I'll let brother ayman respond himself, as he is quite capable. All I have to say is that I suspect ayman made his post to you because he saw that you too were attaching a certain specific meaning to the text, and then citing the verse, as if the verse literally said what you purported it did.

You cannot take anything for granted with the quran (or in life in general, 1736). We have to be careful to study the quran on its own merits, and not presume that a verse automatically means something because "our ancestors" or "our scholars" have told us it does. I won't bother pasting the many, many verses denouncing taking one's ancestors or scholars at their word, as I am confident you are already aware of them.

What is a sign/monument/beacon/waymark?
Are Safa and Marwa signs/monuments/beacons?
Keyword Pilgrimage. House.

""Safa and Marwah (alssafa waalmarwata) are signs (shaAAa-iri) of Allah; so whoever makes a pilgrimage to the House or pays a visit, there is no blame on him if he goes round them." Surah 2158

Reference the original Arabic Quran in Surah 2198 and Surah 2158 for sign/monument/beacon/waymark (almashAAari).

It's not rocket surgery.

You are saying that people created two small mountains in an attempt to deceive the majority. This is a formidable task, even in this day. Is that what you are saying has occurred? Am I understanding you correctly?

You can put that forth to our Creator on Judgment Day if you desire, but I would be hard pressed to offer to anyone else that theory without proof they are man-made or did not exist 1400 years ago.

So if that is your claim, where is your proof?

Repeat after me Explanation is not proof.

I believe in the Quran; all of it. I believe it is a revelation from our Creator and a guidance for the believer.

I am not your guardian nor am I responsible for you or anyone else. To me are my works and to you are yours. Let those who come behind read and make their own decisions based on what is offered before them. They can either follow the fancy stories and explanations, or they can follow the proofs provided from the Quran and in the world we live in.

"Surely those who conceal any part of the Book that Allah has revealed and take for it a small price, they eat nothing but fire into their bellies, and Allah will not speak to them on the day of resurrection, nor will He purify them, and they shall have a painful chastisement." Surah 2174

Bear witness I submit to Allah, Lord of the worlds.

Peace.

Again, I'll let ayman respond to you. I want to clarify and mention that I did not say anyone "created two small mountains." I meant, the ideas of safa and marwa were perhaps later nominalized and retrospectively 'attached' to existing mountains. A similar thing likely happened with al-masjid al-haram. I urge you to read this article if you haven't already http//free-minds.org/name

Peace.

CavemanDoctor

@cavemandoctor I can assure you ayman has done tons of research on this.

Is that some kind of "proof" vis-a-vis raginggaijin's "assumption"?

What's your authority or authenticity?

Peace thegod. You have misunderstood. I never said the fact that ayman has done research on this is some sort of "proof."

Brother raginggaijin said the following

If you did your research you would have known that.

It was that statement that I was responding to, by reassuring that ayman has done research. Of course, his doing research doesn't necessarily make him right.

thegod

Oh, okay, buddy. So you know that ayman has done his reasearch.

What about you yourself, have you done any research into this yourself?

herbman

Peace Raginggaijin,

first things first.

You are kidding, right?

"Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty." Surah 2240

Check the original Arabic for the names of these structures. Guess what a Mosque is called.

No, I am not kidding.

Is this your translation or you just copy paste it? Did you try to undestand it or tried to search the meaning of each word? Or simplier, just take diffefrent translations and compare?

Yusuf Ali translation
(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right (for no cause) except that they say "Our Lord is Allah." Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid His (cause); for verily Allah is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (Able to enforce His Will).

Moshin Khan
Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said "Our Lord is All?h." - For had it not been that All?h checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of All?h is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, All?h will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, All?h is All-Strong, All-Mighty.

Pikthal
Those who have been driven from their homes unjustly only because they said Our Lord is Allah - For had it not been for Allah's repelling some men by means of others, cloisters and churches and oratories and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft mentioned, would assuredly have been pulled down. Verily Allah helpeth one who helpeth Him. Lo! Allah is Strong, Almighty -

Shakir
Those who have been expelled from their homes without a just cause except that they say Our Lord is Allah. And had there not been Allah's repelling some people by others, certainly there would have been pulled down cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques in which Allah's name is much remembered; and surely Allah will help him who helps His cause; most surely Allah is Strong, Mighty

Free-minds
The ones who were driven out of their homes without justice, except that they said Our Lord is God! And if it were not for God defending the people against themselves, then many places of gathering, and markets, and bonds, and temples where the name of God is frequently mentioned, would have been destroyed. God will give victory to those who support Him. God is Powerful, Noble.

I know what you gone a say, FM translation is not an "official" translation while the other are, were there revealed with the arabic version at the same time?