Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
-
How do you know God has counted the number of all things, where is the proof? And do you believe God controls everything or are there free entities. How do you know without example there is a purpose to creation. And do you ignore the whole in favour of the particular, because that is what Satan did he focussed on a particular and created a problem out of it, made an issue out of it. Who knows the soldiers of God, and who are the enemies of God.
Pl quote the reference to which this is the response. Thanks.
-
Call me what you like, but having had the age old understanding that the gematric value of besm allah irrahman nirraheem, has been 786, how can you now start back tracking in considering the count of letters in the opening verse of the Quran. I think the rule which the submitters used was to count the pure forms. In preparation of this miracle it was validated by Muhammadans who used to abbreviate the besm allah with 786, if that does not point to 19 letters in it then what do you regard as proof.
God says He has counted the number of all things (722 7+2+2+8 = 19
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when
they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as
their path, but when they see the path of straying they
will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of
their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless
thereof.http//www.submission.org/god-bible.html
-
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Edip -
Judge not, lest you be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Peace Edip, it is the immutable system of God.Dear Submitter
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipPeace Edip,
it is all matter of convention, if you setup a "rule" as "let's count the letter with shadda twice" or "forget about shadda", the result will be different depending on the rules YOU setup.
The same apply for the gematrical values, and so on and so on.An other rule we can change, do you include sourate 1 in the Quran knowing 1587
"And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an."What I mean is, all the verse numbering in the Reading are man made, and different versions of the Reading give different numbering.
You based all your "19 miracle" on the verse numbering , which is man made, how do you want it to be God's miracle?
Peace
-
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipIt is not a letter but it is certainly an indicator that the letter under it is not one but are two, first still and the other then flowing on to next letter. Qur'aan asks us to use eyes also and not to be blind while reading it. Only blind cant see that these are two letters, and that is the computer programme devised by 19er.
-
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Ediphow did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
-
how did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
Dear RK was least interested in knowing Arabic.
His knowledge of Arabic is this; ?The geometrical value of the word ?Rashad? as written in the Quran is 505, .
He calls these words as his name mentioned in Qur'aan.
The word in 4038
sabilar rasya_d
And interestingly he claims that this is the evidence of him being the messenger. And imagine the gravity that those who consider themselves as intellectuals and keep throwing invitations for debates take it as a concrete proof of him being messenger.
-
What I dont understand here is the big problem.
How would believing in the Code 19 theory change or create a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
How also would believing in Rashad Khalifa as a Messenger also be of a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
If anything, I would think there it to be beneficial to the cause.Is this really such a Crucial and Cyclic Debate that needs to continue?
There is no Number 19 nor a rashad Khalifa nor edip nor added to the Shahada after Allah (swt).
Rashad's Messengership does not directly invalidate any monotheistic view or goal does it?
Can or is there any befit that can be gained?What draw back does supporting/believing in this(19/rashad) cause to the Current Quranic movement?
(just curious) -
Salamun alaikum,
RA786. I sympathise. Some believe, some don't.
In my opinion I do not believe that having code 19 backing me up on the day of judgment or not is not necessary. It is there to be understood by those who do. I don't personally understand it as only some of it makes sense to me, and at other times the counts etc are at odds with a systematic simple approach. It is no for me and not something I wish to spend time debating.
I think we need to stop this as it will continue for a very long time. An issue has been bothering me for some time yet people (try to) deal with this one...
Come on guys, lets move on.
Peace to all
d -
Peace Mazhar,
The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials.
I don't get what you are trying to say. Every educated person knows that it is important to know the whole truth and not just the successful attempts or trials. Would you give your children a flu medicine where the pharmaceutical company only shared the successful trials? For example, the pharmaceutical company said that its medicine cured 10,000 flu patients. So you go and buy the flu medicine and give it to your child then you find out that the pharmaceutical company actually tried the medicine on 20,000 flu patients, out of which 10,000 trials failed and the patients died. So the mortality rate of the medicine is 1 in 2 while we know that the mortality rate of the flu is about 1 in 10,000. How worried would you be about your child? It would have been better if you gave him or her nothing or a placebo.
In the case of Code 19, the placebo or the natural frequency of 19 divisibles is 1 in 19. If Code 19 hunters shared their failed trials then everyone would be able to easily tell if the success rate of Code 19 is better than a placebo or not. THIS IS WHY CODE 19 HUNTERS (OR BIBLE CODE OR WHATEVER CODE) NEVER SHARE THEIR FAILED TRIALS, plain and simple.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Edip,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
You should have told this to Dr. Khalifa. It is ironic that you insist on using only the consonontal text of the great reading and then turn around and hypocritically "give birth" to letters when you want to change a count to add up to 19.
For example, you don't count the little vocalization Alif in "rahman" that you see here when you count the letters of the Bismallah
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0138.gif
But then you turn around and count the same exact little vocalization Alif in "wahed"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.163%20.gif
You are forced to hypocritically violate your own rule to cook up a Gematrical Value of 19 for "wahed" despite that like "rahman" this is not how it is written in the consonontal text of the great reading. Khalifa and you knew this fully but then you had the nerve to say the following blatant lie with a straight face
"The crucial importance of the word "ONE"
as the Quran's basic message is manifested
in the fact that the Quran's common denominator, 19,
happens to be the gematrical value of the word "ONE.""
(Source Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa)So Edip, you should be the last person to talk about "giving birth" to letters. However, as I said, it is not too late to take a deep breath, gather your courage, and do the right thing and shock everyone (including me) by sharing the WHOLE TRUTH. It is your choice.
PS Thanks to Mazhar for the scanned images from his website.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace RA786,
What I dont understand here is the big problem.
How would believing in the Code 19 theory change or create a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
How also would believing in Rashad Khalifa as a Messenger also be of a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
If anything, I would think there it to be beneficial to the cause.
Is this really such a Crucial and Cyclic Debate that needs to continue?
There is no Number 19 nor a rashad Khalifa nor edip nor added to the Shahada after Allah (swt).
Rashad's Messengership does not directly invalidate any monotheistic view or goal does it?
Can or is there any befit that can be gained?
What draw back does supporting/believing in this(19/rashad) cause to the Current Quranic movement?
(just curious)Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace RA786,
Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
AymanAyman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Edip,
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.So tell the whole truth and don't hide the parts of the truth that you don't like. It has been three days since I appealed to your sense of decency to tell the whole truth
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg239877#msg239877
Only you and the five other individuals who helped Khalifa with the numerology of Appendix 24 know this truth. So be fair and rise up to the occasion and share the whole truth. Also, respect the intelligence of your own followers and have confidence in them and let them decide based on the whole truth, both successful and failed trials.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Edip,
Ayman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
Could you please underline or highlight the part in 7431 which says "those who do not acknowledge the number 19"? Is "not acknowledged" or "fitnah" the description given for the counting of 19? Does "fitnah" mean "not acknowledged"? I asked a specific question about what "fitnah" means.
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
The rest of the verse is the result of the highlighted part. So you have to understand the highlighted part to understand the rest of the verse.
Peace,
Ayman
-
Peace Mazhar,
I don't get what you are trying to say. Every educated person knows that it is important to know the whole truth and not just the successful attempts or trials. Would you give your children a flu medicine where the pharmaceutical company only shared the successful trials? For example, the pharmaceutical company said that its medicine cured 10,000 flu patients. So you go and buy the flu medicine and give it to your child then you find out that the pharmaceutical company actually tried the medicine on 20,000 flu patients, out of which 10,000 trials failed and the patients died. So the mortality rate of the medicine is 1 in 2 while we know that the mortality rate of the flu is about 1 in 10,000. How worried would you be about your child? It would have been better if you gave him or her nothing or a placebo.
In the case of Code 19, the placebo or the natural frequency of 19 divisibles is 1 in 19. If Code 19 hunters shared their failed trials then everyone would be able to easily tell if the success rate of Code 19 is better than a placebo or not. THIS IS WHY CODE 19 HUNTERS (OR BIBLE CODE OR WHATEVER CODE) NEVER SHARE THEIR FAILED TRIALS, plain and simple.
Peace,
Ayman
Rashad Khalifa was an absolute cheat and liar. Cheating and fraud is done firstly by clothing the truth with falsehood and by withholding some of the facts from disclosing. He did both the things.
Rashad Khalifa's Intellectual deceit exposed-What he said was scum.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/003.%20Rashad%20Khalifa%20Intelectual%20deceit%20exposed/01.%20Preface.htm
-
Ayman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
Peace,
EdipIt is you who do not believe in quran and keep telling people that they will repent on day of judgement for not believing in your imagination (code-19), so tell us Edip who appointed you to give people this terrible news? laugh
-
Peace Edip,
Would you please tell us what is your answer to this
Peace Edip,
........
For example, you don't count the little vocalization Alif in "rahman" that you see here when you count the letters of the Bismallah
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0138.gif
But then you turn around and count the same exact little vocalization Alif in "wahed"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.163%20.gif
.....
Peace,
Ayman
I Think it is a major point in this debate, but you keep on ignoring this question !
You always reply to the question before it and the one after it , but never answerd THIS Question !
if you already answered but i'd missed it for some reason, please re-quote yourself for the benefit of this debate.Once again
Why the Vocalisation Alif is counted in some verses yet skipped in others ?
Salam,
-
Peace Edip,
Would you please tell us what is your answer to this
I Think it is a major point in this debate, but you keep on ignoring this question !
You always reply to the question before it and the one after it , but never answerd THIS Question !
if you already answered but i'd missed it for some reason, please re-quote yourself for the benefit of this debate.Once again
Why the Vocalisation Alif is counted in some verses yet skipped in others ? Salam,
Dear Quickduck
I thank you for bringing this criticism to my attention, since I do not have time to read all the messages in this or other threads. When I browsed this page I thought it belonged to the person who contested the number of letters in Bismillah. Thus, I did not want to waste my time on it.
This is a valid and so far the best criticism directed by Ayman. I command him for this criticism. We do not and we should not count that vocalization dagger. Dagger, shadda, diatrical marks are not letters and they are not part of the original spelling of the words. So, the gematrical value of WaHeD (6+8+4) in today's manuscripts cannot be 19, but it is 18. Of course, this creates a major problem in the system. But, knowing the imperfection and inconsistencies in manuscripts and knowing the predictive and corrective power of this highly sensitive system, I am predicting (or speculating) that its original spelling contained an Alif. Interestingly, some scholars of the past considered the word WAHeD (6+1+8+4) spelled with Alif and thus adding up to 19.
Here is a question If we find some of the oldest manuscripts spelling the word with Alif would Ayman acknowledged the numerical structure of the Quran on the number 19?
Peace,
Edip