Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.
whatever
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welcome to the forum
I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.
whatever
well, you should ask your friend again how many letters are in the word " " "one" ?
i bet he will tell you that there are 4 letters because he'll count the alif as a letter, despite the fact that this "alif" is written the exact same way as the dagger alif in the bismillah, hence should not be counted.salam
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I'm a new Muslim and don't speak Arabic, but even I can realize that the shadda didn't exist when the Quran was written, therefor no double lams.. The bismillah only has 19 letters in the original Quran. I even asked an Egyptian Sunni that doesn't believe in code 19. They still said 19 letters.watever
Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
Edip -
Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
EdipWhen they are presented with truth, they reject it, deaf dumb and blind.
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Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
EdipAnd how many letters are in the word " " ?? did everyone agreed on this also ?
Salam,
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Peace Edip,
Here is a question If we find some of the oldest manuscripts spelling the word with Alif would Ayman acknowledged the numerical structure of the Quran on the number 19?
Your question demonstrates that you don't know much about the development of the Arabic writing system. The oldest manuscripts of the great reading spell the word "wahed" without an Alif for a reason. The reason is that the Old Arabic writing system didn't make use of Matres Lectionis. The use of Matres Lectionis became a standard part of the Arabic writing system much later. This is the case even for non-quranic writings. So for example, in mundane Arabic writings from pre-Quranic times we also see that Matres Lectionis was not used. On the other hand, we see Matres Lectionis increasingly used the more modern the writing. So the older any manuscript or inscription (Quranic or otherwise) the less likely you are to find the spelling of words with an Alif long vowel.
Also, it is hypocritical to say the least that you appeal to oldest manuscripts when you don't follow your own advice. It is an indisputable fact that ALL the oldest manuscripts have the word "wahed" spelled without an Alif. So until you wake up from your dream of discovering some non-existent older manuscript that contradicts everything we know about the development of Old Arabic, you should take your own advice and admit that "wahed" is spelled without an Alif and delete or clearly denounce the following deliberate blatant lie in Khalifa's Appendix
"The crucial importance of the word "ONE"
as the Quran's basic message is manifested
in the fact that the Quran's common denominator, 19,
happens to be the gematrical value of the word "ONE.""
(Source Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa)It is a deliberate blatant lie and not an honest mistake because Khalifa certainly tried the word "wahed" with and without the Alif but like a cowardly thief in the night he hid his failed trial without the Alif. Had he shared both trials then we could have considered it an honest mistake due to his ignorance (and yours) of the development of the Arabic script.
Also, while you are in the mood of not being a hypocrite and following your own advice of considering the oldest Quanic manuscripts, you might as well delete and denounce all of Appendix 24 since all the oldest manuscripts of Chapter 9 have 9128-129.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
I'm a former pursuer of 19-based numerology in the reading (quran). Pardon me for joining this thread so late. I hope that what I have to share will be beneficial.
First, I have a question. It has been suggested that an oral debate be called "Fitnah or Sign?" - how is that a reasonable title? In the original written debate, Edip was forced by the veracity of the reading (quran) to confess that the count (19) is only a fitnah for those who ungratefully rejected (alladhin kafaru). Edip was forced to admit that the passage translates to we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial (fitnah) for the rejectors . God did not make the count (19) EXCEPT as a fitnah for the rejectors. That is established and indisputable, so how could it be the title of a new debate?
My first point is general, and my second is specific. In general, the numbers associated with the end time (yawm al-akhir) - when this world will come to an end and things will be unimaginably different - are allegorical. Also, the numbers associated with the invisible controllers (malaikah) are also allegorical.
351
351 He makes the controllers messengers with wings - two, three, and four.Are not the wings and their count allegorical?
6917
6917 The controllers will be at its borders (at the end time), and the throne of your lord will be carried above them by eight.Is eight a mystical count that should be pursued, or an allegory? Isn't the throne also a symbol?
7430-31
7430-31 On it are ninteen. We did not make associates of the fire except controllers and we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial for the rejectors.The count of "wings" of the controllers (2, 3, and 4), the count of 8 associated with the "throne" of God at the end time, and the count of controllers somehow associated with the fire of hell (19) are allegories. There are also 1000 controllers mentioned in the reading, and 3000, and 5000. But no number has been so widely afflicting to those who reject the no-nonsense reading ( ج as 19.
Now, my specific point is regarding what Ayman just said about Khalifa's wahid deception. A few years ago I was in the thick of the Rashad Khalifa cult in North America. Due to Khalifa's gross misrepresentation of the passage in chapter 74, I thought I would be going to hell if I noticed inconsistencies in his 19 counts. However, they were inescapable.
On page 625 of Khalifa's last published translation (ISBN 0-934894-57-1 - 1989), he wrote
We now understand that the universal coding of God's creations with the number 19 rests in the fact that it is the gematrical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural language - Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. ...The Hebrew word for "ONE" is "VAHD" (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for "ONE" is "WAHD" (pronounced WAAHED).
Obviously, the value of wahid in the reading is 18, according to the gematria counting scheme. Khalifa had to count invisible letters to push the count to 19, just like adding a letter nun to the passage in 681 to push the authentic count of 132 to 133, 19x7. Furthermore, the Hebrew word va-ahad does not mean "one," it means "and one." It's like saying "and one" (wa-ahad) in Arabic. He had to insert a Hebrew character to force the Hebrew "gematrical" value to be 19. The real value of "one" in Hebrew is 13, if you're into gematria.
You have to switch the method of counting and doctor what you're counting in order to force 19 to pop up all over the reading.
If being forced by 19-based numerology into manipulation of the book of God is NOT a fitnah (afflicting trial), I'd like to know what is. I honestly can't believe I wasted so many years of my life trying to see 19 everywhere, when all I had to do was translate the passage in 7431 correctly to see that the whole thing is nothing but an afflicting trial for those who reject. What do they reject? The true nature of God (one who does not mess around) and the true nature of the reading (one that contains no nonsense).
-David
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Ironically, the scholars of dozens of Sunni and Shiite sects who disagreed on almost everything, never had a disagreement about the number of letters in Bismillah BEFORE 1974. (I have sample quotes from them). However, now I hear and read disagreement on this simple issue. Some scholars now claim that Basmalah has 18 letters, some claims it to be 20, 21 and even 22, but not 19.
During my live TV debate with the former head of Turkish Religious Affairs, Prof. Suleyman Ate, he claimed that Basmalah has 21 letters. In front of millions of audience. ???
Peace,
EdipPeace everyone,
What Edip is doing is typical he is contrasting his numerological pursuits with the nonsense of the totally idiotic sectarians he has debated. He's saying, "I'm into 19, but they're into some crazy stuff! They can't even count letters!" He's comparing his 19-based religion to the moronic Suleyman Ates of Turkey's religious elite. Why go to extremes? Ates counts 21 letters where there are 19, and Edip counts 133 "N"s in chapter 68 when there are 132. How's that for a fair comparison?
Rashad Khalifa used a similar tactic he never allowed anyone intelligent to debate with him in a fair manner. He stuck to debating really stupid traditionalists who had absolutely no interest in following the word of God alone. So when his followers watch and read his debates, he seems like the smart one, and he's their hero. The truth is that if you listen to Khalifa's audio recordings from "Masjid Tucson," Edip is one of the only people who ever got close to questioning Khalifa in a fair manner. For example, the audio tapes have Khalifa talking about how poor believers are inferior to wealthy ones (based on a bizarre understanding of 1675-76). Edip rightly challenges this nonsense, and as time goes by Rashad turns him into the enemy of the mosque. 5 days before Khalifa was killed he said, in front of everyone, that Edip was going straight to hell for being so arrogant as to argue with him. "He worships his ego ... we love him ... if he does not stop, he will go to hell."
Classic cult-leader manipulation.
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By the way, if you ever want to hear Khalifa totally rip into Edip Yuksel and condemn him to eternal hell, download "12. Q-study 1/25/90, Behrouz's khutba, Edip's exposure" - the 12th mp3 here
http//submission.ws/index.php/submission-radio-quran-mp3/quran-studies.html
It's kind of a waste of an hour+ of your life, so I can understand not being interested. But if you want to hear the kind of grip Khalifa had on his people, check it out. Edip's wife cries, Edip has a panic attack, and Khalifa laughs at him. It's really ugly. This is all part of the FITNAH of 19 - a can of worms that leads to changing the reading (e.g. 681), deleting whole sentences from it (9128-129), and accepting Khalfa as a messenger. Just listen to this "messenger" and see if you think he's God's favored servant.
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David, I listened to that audio clip.
I agree that its rather ironic that Rashad accuses Edip of idol-worship because he has an opinion. That's humorous because half of the crazy interpretations Rashad had of the Quran is based on nothing but his opinion.. And he passes them off as inarguable fact. Like how he claims (even in that tape) that the "We" plural usage in the Quran denotes that the angels (or other heavenly beings) were somehow involved. 2190 says
2190 So We responded to him, and We granted him John, and We cured his wife. They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. To Us they were reverent.
We are shown that any good Muslim can only reverence God alone, and only call to God.
Those who deliver GOD's messages, and who reverence Him alone, shall never fear anyone but GOD. GOD is the most efficient reckoner.
The fact is only Him you implore, and He answers your prayer, if He so wills, and you forget your idols.
By Rashad's meaning of "We", the angels helped create the heavens, the earth, humans, the earth, jinns, heavenly beings even helped create the angels themselves, and they will also be reckoners along with Allah, and also have the powers to resurrect.
Rashad's problem was far worse than idolizing his own opinions (which he was also guilty of), but he sets up these angels as partners with God.
Another grotesque example of Rashad's flawed logic is made clear in that audio recording. He says that God is not present on earth, and that this universe cannot stand the presence of God. Oh really? Should we trust the opinion of a human, or what God told us himself?? Rashad even translates this as "Omnipresent", but claims God can't be here! What a lie!
To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
Like I said.... Talk about irony...
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Peace David,
Thank you for sharing your experience and welcome to the forum.
I'm a former pursuer of 19-based numerology in the reading (quran). Pardon me for joining this thread so late. I hope that what I have to share will be beneficial.
It is always beneficial to hear from former pursuers of 19-based numerology who the god has guided to the truth. It is beneficial for the same reason why none of us have ever seen or will ever see a person who was formerly attracted to the temptation ("fitnah" of counting 19 go back to believing in Code 19. More importantly, it is beneficial because that is exactly what 7431 is about.
First, I have a question. It has been suggested that an oral debate be called "Fitnah or Sign?" - how is that a reasonable title? In the original written debate, Edip was forced by the veracity of the reading (quran) to confess that the count (19) is only a fitnah for those who ungratefully rejected (alladhin kafaru). Edip was forced to admit that the passage translates to we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial (fitnah) for the rejectors . God did not make the count (19) EXCEPT as a fitnah for the rejectors. That is established and indisputable, so how could it be the title of a new debate?
Yes, Edip had already lost the debate before it even started. This was also pointed here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg179926#msg179926
I think that his slip makes it clear that he had already made up his mind and rejected the word "fitnah" and thus what 7431 is saying. He rejected the god's words in 7431 for the sake of Code 19. So we can empirically verify through Edip's own attitude that indeed the counting of 19 is only a temptation for the unappreciative rejecters. After I pointed this out, he changed the title of the debate.
Now, my specific point is regarding what Ayman just said about Khalifa's wahid deception. A few years ago I was in the thick of the Rashad Khalifa cult in North America. Due to Khalifa's gross misrepresentation of the passage in chapter 74, I thought I would be going to hell if I noticed inconsistencies in his 19 counts. However, they were inescapable.
On page 625 of Khalifa's last published translation (ISBN 0-934894-57-1 - 1989), he wrote
We now understand that the universal coding of God's creations with the number 19 rests in the fact that it is the gematrical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural language - Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. ...The Hebrew word for "ONE" is "VAHD" (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for "ONE" is "WAHD" (pronounced WAAHED).
Obviously, the value of wahid in the reading is 18, according to the gematria counting scheme. Khalifa had to count invisible letters to push the count to 19, just like adding a letter nun to the passage in 681 to push the authentic count of 132 to 133, 19x7. Furthermore, the Hebrew word va-ahad does not mean "one," it means "and one." It's like saying "and one" (wa-ahad) in Arabic. He had to insert a Hebrew character to force the Hebrew "gematrical" value to be 19. The real value of "one" in Hebrew is 13, if you're into gematria.What amazes me is not the deception but the style with which Khalifa presented his deception. I will never be able to understand how he was able to say such fancy words as "universal", "God's creation" and "fact" with a straight face and in the same breath of what he undoubtedly KNEW was a lie that exploits the ignorance of his audience of Quranic Arabic orthography and Hebrew. Such manipulative and obsessive goal-oriented personality is a trait of a pathological liar. Another trait of pathological liars is that they are extremely self-centered, which would also explain his claim of messengership based on a narcissistic vision.
You have to switch the method of counting and doctor what you're counting in order to force 19 to pop up all over the reading.
If being forced by 19-based numerology into manipulation of the book of God is NOT a fitnah (afflicting trial), I'd like to know what is. I honestly can't believe I wasted so many years of my life trying to see 19 everywhere, when all I had to do was translate the passage in 7431 correctly to see that the whole thing is nothing but an afflicting trial for those who reject. What do they reject? The true nature of God (one who does not mess around) and the true nature of the reading (one that contains no nonsense).
As I said in the beginning, this is exactly what 7431 is about. I guarantee that your faith in the god and the great reading has been greatly strengthened once you realized that counting 19 everywhere is nothing but a temptation/trial for the rejecters. It feels great to be certain, doesn't it? It is as if one was sick and got cured.
May the god have mercy on us.
Peace,
Ayman
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What amazes me is not the deception but the style with which Khalifa presented his deception. I will never be able to understand how he was able to say such fancy words as "universal", "God's creation" and "fact" with a straight face and in the same breath of what he undoubtedly KNEW was a lie that exploits the ignorance of his audience of Quranic Arabic orthography and Hebrew. Such manipulative and obsessive goal-oriented personality is a trait of a pathological liar. Another trait of pathological liars is that they are extremely self-centered, which would also explain his claim of messengership based on a narcissistic vision.
Highly accurate analysis. Sometimes, a picture can also say a thousand words. Look at this little cartoon by Khalifa, July 1988, from his "Muslim Perspective"
http//i47.tinypic.com/126e2hd.png
Source http//www.quranalone.com/SP/43_1988_07.pdfNote that, once again, Khalifa resorts to fighting people like the "National Council of Islamic Affairs." He deliberately contrasted his message to the hogwash of the sectarians. He purposely avoided any confrontation with intelligent people. Unfortunately, that is how many kind-hearted people get trapped. They know that the traditional practices are wrong, but they don't know that there is truth beyond Khalifa, the "purifying messenger." They start off wanting to follow the reading alone (al-quran wahdah), and they end up wasting their lives chasing 19. In the end, they end up attributing to God a "miracle" that doesn't exist. Just look, for example, at how Khalifa's counts changed when he switched from general numerology (1973) to 19-based numerology (1974)
1973 counts, pre-19
Chapter 2 - ALM - 9465 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5714 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5349 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2522 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2514 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2405 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1206 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 922 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1682 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1261 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 823 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 581 (not a multiple of 19)-Source "Miracle of the Quran Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets," Khalifa, 1973
1974 counts, post-19
All above mentioned failures magically became multiples of 19.
Trickery, at it's best.
Peace,
-David
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Peace Ayman and David
I liked your posts and learned important stuff. I have also criticized code 19.
Check out one of my past threads in this forumhttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0
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Peace All,
Why would Allah need a code, any code to show that His Dhikr has been preserved as He set up and promised He will do.
To need a code confirmation shows a sign of insecurity, is Allah insecure about His ability to preserve his Message?
These were some of the questions that led me to disbelieve in the 19 hoax...
not to say that it would have been such a weak and easy to counterfeit code -
Salamun alaikum,
In my opinion, to every endeavour and search for knowledge, as soon as you stop being objective and start having confirmation bias, you are lost.
Try this yourselves - key in "Islam is evil" and try "Islam is good" you will get confirmation of both - it then becomes easy to ignore the other because you have found what you were looking for.
All being said, we still need to unite around the Quran. We need to strengthen ourselves as the muslim world I am sure will follow once we have a significant presence. Our variety of beliefs but common rallying around the mukhamat should be sufficient for us to move forward. The world needs an Islamic Reformation...
peace
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Peace David,
Unfortunately, that is how many kind-hearted people get trapped. They know that the traditional practices are wrong, but they don't know that there is truth beyond Khalifa, the "purifying messenger." They start off wanting to follow the reading alone (al-quran wahdah), and they end up wasting their lives chasing 19.
This is what I find ironic. Practically speaking, Khalifa and his followers actually follow traditional practices to the same degree as your average sectarian. For example, if you ran into Khalifa during his pilgrimage to Mecca you would have seen him do the same pagan rituals from the mindless spinning around a stone cube to the idiotic stoning of the devils' pillars. Ironically, Khalifa claimed that he received his "messengership" while he was on this very pilgrimage to Mecca. It seems that the prophets were in such great awe, joy, and respect of his presence that they neglected to tell him that stoning some pillars is idiotic. Perhaps he should have asked some useful questions instead of asking about some guy who looked like him ) . Seriously, such fixation on the superficial looks is exactly the same attitude as the most dogmatic sectarians who are obsessed with "looking like" the prophet.
Khalifa on the surface rejected Hadiths but he only rejected the silly Hadiths such as the fly dipping and camel urine drinking Hadiths that sectarian don't really follow or believe in anyway. In practical observable reality, despite claiming to reject Hadiths, Khalifa was more extreme in believing Hadiths than even the thickest bearded Mullah. He used the Hadith casting doubt on 9128-129 as the starting point for conducting his numerology and delete 9128-129. Not even the most ardent supporter of Hadiths would dare to physically delete anything from the great reading starting from a Hadith.
So for all practical intents and purposes, there is no difference between Khalifa and his followers and your average dogmatic bearded Sunni. Their rituals are the same. Their infatuation with miracles, holy men and their superficial looks are the same. Their use of Hadiths as a starting point for their preconceptions about the great reading is excatly the same. They also both believe in Code 19. In fact, many sectarians have learned Khalifa's tricks and are doing the same exact numerology that he did. Even Al-Azhar is now playing Khalifa's game and has recently authorized and blessed Code 19 and gave a distinctive award to a team of Code 19 hunters
http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549
Here is a very rough translation of the Arabic into English from Google Translate
http//translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.almasry-alyoum.com%2Fprinterfriendly.aspx%3FArticleID%3D61549&sl=ar&tl=en
So as I said, for all practical intents and purposes there is really no difference in attitude between 19ers and sectarians. Both are equally misguided and the sectarian's similar belief in Code 19 hasn't made them more guided. The only difference I see is that 19ers believe that Khalifa was a messenger. I don't think that I need to say more.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Lest anyone think that Ayman is just talking off the top of his head, here is the relevant evidence of RE-PACKAGED TRADITIONALISM from Khalifa's translation. As Ayman noted, Khalifa did add his own twists
Khalifa - Appendix 15
...must be observed during the four Sacred Months - Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, & Rabi
I (12th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd months)... ...the male pilgrim wears seamless sheets of material... ...upon arrival at the Sacred Mosque in Mecca, the pilgrim walks around the Kabah seven times...
...21 pebbles are picked up for the symbolic stoning of Satan at Mina....
...stoning ceremonies symbolize rejection of Satan's polytheism and are done by throwing seven pebbles at each of three stations...
...pilgrim then returns to Mecca and observes a farewell circumvolution of the Ka`bah seven times...Khalifa - Appendix 2
During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21, 1971, I, Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person, not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God's Messenger of the Covenant. I was not informed of the details and true significance of this event until Ramadan 1408.
What I witnessed, in sharp consciousness, was that I was sitting still, while the prophets, one by one, came towards me, looked at my face, then nodded their heads. God showed them to me as they had looked in this world, attired in their respective mode of dress. There was an atmosphere of great awe, joy, and respect.
Except for Abraham, none of the prophets was identified to me. I knew that all the prophets were there, including Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Aaron, David, Noah, and the rest. I believe that the reason for revealing Abraham's identity was that I asked about him. I was taken aback by the strong resemblance he had with my own family - myself, my father, my uncles. It was the only time that I wondered, "Who is this prophet who looks like my relatives?" The answer came "Abraham." No language was spoken. All communication was done mentally.
..."Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; and suddenly there will come to the temple the Lord whom you seek and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire, or like the fuller's lye."
Khalifa - Appendix 24
...I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59...
<< Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored." >>
...we realize that the false injections, 9128-129, were always suspect. For example, we read in Bukhary's famous Hadith, and Al-Suyuty's famous Itqaan, that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses "except Verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9; they were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary."
If anyone were to write a detailed exposition on this sort of re-packaged traditionalism, they could call it MANUFACTURING DISSENT. The evil influences of this world love false reformers, because anyone who attempts authentic reform would seem crazy. It's like saying, If Khalifa is a purifying reformer, anyone beyond him would be nuts! In truth, Khalifa gave "quran alone" a bad name, because he practiced nothing of the sort. I should not defend his followers.
Peace,
-David R. S. Aitken
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I Personnally Like Kalifah, Though I've never met him.
I mean judging him by the audio/video/writtings...it seems like he was a cool guy.I think He did Alot for the Quran Alone Movement. It was really one of the 1st times that America (non-muslims) were exposed to a new side of Islam that they were unfamiliar with. The Website Masjid Tuscan and submission.org was actually the 1st that I found..which later lead me here.
I think it would be incorrect to blame so much on kalifah and basicallly say he is lower than dirt. His work I feel was good and amounted to much in my eyes.
Whether there were errors or not, He to me was a Muslim man who wanted to show people there was more then tradionalist/hadithist Islam.
and at least for America...He did.Reffereing to His Dream....Im not going to judge him and say that he is Lieing or anything. Maybe He really did meet with the Prophets. Perhaps he Astral-Projected or was in REM Sleep and it was some kind of Spiritual Dream...I think we are all capable of many things when we sleep.
(Read Brother Abdun Noor's Article about the Pineal Gland and Muhammad btw)the Only thing I may have against Kalaifah, is that I think that to a point...There may have been some kind of Self-Grandizement.
When he said something along the lines of [he represents the 2nd comming of jesus, the al-mahdi, etc).
I dont know what he ment by that, and it sounds awfully odd. I dont think i would say that.if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.
On the Cult Leader Scale... I dont even think he'd pass. He'd probabily be a -5! rotfl whats the worse thing hes Done?
You'd reply.... Fake Messengership and Fake a Mathamatical Code...
Okay...that would be bad...no doubt...but at least he didnt kill tons of people have sex with millions of kids and get them drugged up.
Not too bad for a "Supposed" Cult Leader. laugh -
Selam RA786
I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.Peace
-
Peace RA786,
if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.
I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.It is not about Khalifa. It is about 7431 showing us empirical proof through the attitude of people who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19. Khalifa is simply an example of those people. But the same applies to all avid Code 19 hunters who get aroused out of 19 divisibles. Seeing that those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19 are actually unappreciative of the great reading and have a disease in their heart/mind is what 7431 is about. It is abundantly clear that Khalifa (or anyone like him) is a perfect example of 7431 in action. This realization is what strengthens the faith of those who were given the book and those who have faith.
Peace,
Ayman