Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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By the way, if you ever want to hear Khalifa totally rip into Edip Yuksel and condemn him to eternal hell, download "12. Q-study 1/25/90, Behrouz's khutba, Edip's exposure" - the 12th mp3 here
http//submission.ws/index.php/submission-radio-quran-mp3/quran-studies.html
It's kind of a waste of an hour+ of your life, so I can understand not being interested. But if you want to hear the kind of grip Khalifa had on his people, check it out. Edip's wife cries, Edip has a panic attack, and Khalifa laughs at him. It's really ugly. This is all part of the FITNAH of 19 - a can of worms that leads to changing the reading (e.g. 681), deleting whole sentences from it (9128-129), and accepting Khalfa as a messenger. Just listen to this "messenger" and see if you think he's God's favored servant.
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David, I listened to that audio clip.
I agree that its rather ironic that Rashad accuses Edip of idol-worship because he has an opinion. That's humorous because half of the crazy interpretations Rashad had of the Quran is based on nothing but his opinion.. And he passes them off as inarguable fact. Like how he claims (even in that tape) that the "We" plural usage in the Quran denotes that the angels (or other heavenly beings) were somehow involved. 2190 says
2190 So We responded to him, and We granted him John, and We cured his wife. They used to hasten to do good, and they would call to Us in joy and in fear. To Us they were reverent.
We are shown that any good Muslim can only reverence God alone, and only call to God.
Those who deliver GOD's messages, and who reverence Him alone, shall never fear anyone but GOD. GOD is the most efficient reckoner.
The fact is only Him you implore, and He answers your prayer, if He so wills, and you forget your idols.
By Rashad's meaning of "We", the angels helped create the heavens, the earth, humans, the earth, jinns, heavenly beings even helped create the angels themselves, and they will also be reckoners along with Allah, and also have the powers to resurrect.
Rashad's problem was far worse than idolizing his own opinions (which he was also guilty of), but he sets up these angels as partners with God.
Another grotesque example of Rashad's flawed logic is made clear in that audio recording. He says that God is not present on earth, and that this universe cannot stand the presence of God. Oh really? Should we trust the opinion of a human, or what God told us himself?? Rashad even translates this as "Omnipresent", but claims God can't be here! What a lie!
To GOD belongs the east and the west; wherever you go there will be the presence of GOD. GOD is Omnipresent, Omniscient.
Like I said.... Talk about irony...
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Peace David,
Thank you for sharing your experience and welcome to the forum.
I'm a former pursuer of 19-based numerology in the reading (quran). Pardon me for joining this thread so late. I hope that what I have to share will be beneficial.
It is always beneficial to hear from former pursuers of 19-based numerology who the god has guided to the truth. It is beneficial for the same reason why none of us have ever seen or will ever see a person who was formerly attracted to the temptation ("fitnah" of counting 19 go back to believing in Code 19. More importantly, it is beneficial because that is exactly what 7431 is about.
First, I have a question. It has been suggested that an oral debate be called "Fitnah or Sign?" - how is that a reasonable title? In the original written debate, Edip was forced by the veracity of the reading (quran) to confess that the count (19) is only a fitnah for those who ungratefully rejected (alladhin kafaru). Edip was forced to admit that the passage translates to we did not make their count except as an afflicting trial (fitnah) for the rejectors . God did not make the count (19) EXCEPT as a fitnah for the rejectors. That is established and indisputable, so how could it be the title of a new debate?
Yes, Edip had already lost the debate before it even started. This was also pointed here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg179926#msg179926
I think that his slip makes it clear that he had already made up his mind and rejected the word "fitnah" and thus what 7431 is saying. He rejected the god's words in 7431 for the sake of Code 19. So we can empirically verify through Edip's own attitude that indeed the counting of 19 is only a temptation for the unappreciative rejecters. After I pointed this out, he changed the title of the debate.
Now, my specific point is regarding what Ayman just said about Khalifa's wahid deception. A few years ago I was in the thick of the Rashad Khalifa cult in North America. Due to Khalifa's gross misrepresentation of the passage in chapter 74, I thought I would be going to hell if I noticed inconsistencies in his 19 counts. However, they were inescapable.
On page 625 of Khalifa's last published translation (ISBN 0-934894-57-1 - 1989), he wrote
We now understand that the universal coding of God's creations with the number 19 rests in the fact that it is the gematrical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural language - Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. ...The Hebrew word for "ONE" is "VAHD" (pronounced V-AHAD). In Arabic, the word for "ONE" is "WAHD" (pronounced WAAHED).
Obviously, the value of wahid in the reading is 18, according to the gematria counting scheme. Khalifa had to count invisible letters to push the count to 19, just like adding a letter nun to the passage in 681 to push the authentic count of 132 to 133, 19x7. Furthermore, the Hebrew word va-ahad does not mean "one," it means "and one." It's like saying "and one" (wa-ahad) in Arabic. He had to insert a Hebrew character to force the Hebrew "gematrical" value to be 19. The real value of "one" in Hebrew is 13, if you're into gematria.What amazes me is not the deception but the style with which Khalifa presented his deception. I will never be able to understand how he was able to say such fancy words as "universal", "God's creation" and "fact" with a straight face and in the same breath of what he undoubtedly KNEW was a lie that exploits the ignorance of his audience of Quranic Arabic orthography and Hebrew. Such manipulative and obsessive goal-oriented personality is a trait of a pathological liar. Another trait of pathological liars is that they are extremely self-centered, which would also explain his claim of messengership based on a narcissistic vision.
You have to switch the method of counting and doctor what you're counting in order to force 19 to pop up all over the reading.
If being forced by 19-based numerology into manipulation of the book of God is NOT a fitnah (afflicting trial), I'd like to know what is. I honestly can't believe I wasted so many years of my life trying to see 19 everywhere, when all I had to do was translate the passage in 7431 correctly to see that the whole thing is nothing but an afflicting trial for those who reject. What do they reject? The true nature of God (one who does not mess around) and the true nature of the reading (one that contains no nonsense).
As I said in the beginning, this is exactly what 7431 is about. I guarantee that your faith in the god and the great reading has been greatly strengthened once you realized that counting 19 everywhere is nothing but a temptation/trial for the rejecters. It feels great to be certain, doesn't it? It is as if one was sick and got cured.
May the god have mercy on us.
Peace,
Ayman
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What amazes me is not the deception but the style with which Khalifa presented his deception. I will never be able to understand how he was able to say such fancy words as "universal", "God's creation" and "fact" with a straight face and in the same breath of what he undoubtedly KNEW was a lie that exploits the ignorance of his audience of Quranic Arabic orthography and Hebrew. Such manipulative and obsessive goal-oriented personality is a trait of a pathological liar. Another trait of pathological liars is that they are extremely self-centered, which would also explain his claim of messengership based on a narcissistic vision.
Highly accurate analysis. Sometimes, a picture can also say a thousand words. Look at this little cartoon by Khalifa, July 1988, from his "Muslim Perspective"
http//i47.tinypic.com/126e2hd.png
Source http//www.quranalone.com/SP/43_1988_07.pdfNote that, once again, Khalifa resorts to fighting people like the "National Council of Islamic Affairs." He deliberately contrasted his message to the hogwash of the sectarians. He purposely avoided any confrontation with intelligent people. Unfortunately, that is how many kind-hearted people get trapped. They know that the traditional practices are wrong, but they don't know that there is truth beyond Khalifa, the "purifying messenger." They start off wanting to follow the reading alone (al-quran wahdah), and they end up wasting their lives chasing 19. In the end, they end up attributing to God a "miracle" that doesn't exist. Just look, for example, at how Khalifa's counts changed when he switched from general numerology (1973) to 19-based numerology (1974)
1973 counts, pre-19
Chapter 2 - ALM - 9465 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5714 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5349 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2522 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2514 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2405 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1206 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 922 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1682 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1261 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 823 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 581 (not a multiple of 19)-Source "Miracle of the Quran Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets," Khalifa, 1973
1974 counts, post-19
All above mentioned failures magically became multiples of 19.
Trickery, at it's best.
Peace,
-David
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Peace Ayman and David
I liked your posts and learned important stuff. I have also criticized code 19.
Check out one of my past threads in this forumhttp//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0
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Peace All,
Why would Allah need a code, any code to show that His Dhikr has been preserved as He set up and promised He will do.
To need a code confirmation shows a sign of insecurity, is Allah insecure about His ability to preserve his Message?
These were some of the questions that led me to disbelieve in the 19 hoax...
not to say that it would have been such a weak and easy to counterfeit code -
Salamun alaikum,
In my opinion, to every endeavour and search for knowledge, as soon as you stop being objective and start having confirmation bias, you are lost.
Try this yourselves - key in "Islam is evil" and try "Islam is good" you will get confirmation of both - it then becomes easy to ignore the other because you have found what you were looking for.
All being said, we still need to unite around the Quran. We need to strengthen ourselves as the muslim world I am sure will follow once we have a significant presence. Our variety of beliefs but common rallying around the mukhamat should be sufficient for us to move forward. The world needs an Islamic Reformation...
peace
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Peace David,
Unfortunately, that is how many kind-hearted people get trapped. They know that the traditional practices are wrong, but they don't know that there is truth beyond Khalifa, the "purifying messenger." They start off wanting to follow the reading alone (al-quran wahdah), and they end up wasting their lives chasing 19.
This is what I find ironic. Practically speaking, Khalifa and his followers actually follow traditional practices to the same degree as your average sectarian. For example, if you ran into Khalifa during his pilgrimage to Mecca you would have seen him do the same pagan rituals from the mindless spinning around a stone cube to the idiotic stoning of the devils' pillars. Ironically, Khalifa claimed that he received his "messengership" while he was on this very pilgrimage to Mecca. It seems that the prophets were in such great awe, joy, and respect of his presence that they neglected to tell him that stoning some pillars is idiotic. Perhaps he should have asked some useful questions instead of asking about some guy who looked like him ) . Seriously, such fixation on the superficial looks is exactly the same attitude as the most dogmatic sectarians who are obsessed with "looking like" the prophet.
Khalifa on the surface rejected Hadiths but he only rejected the silly Hadiths such as the fly dipping and camel urine drinking Hadiths that sectarian don't really follow or believe in anyway. In practical observable reality, despite claiming to reject Hadiths, Khalifa was more extreme in believing Hadiths than even the thickest bearded Mullah. He used the Hadith casting doubt on 9128-129 as the starting point for conducting his numerology and delete 9128-129. Not even the most ardent supporter of Hadiths would dare to physically delete anything from the great reading starting from a Hadith.
So for all practical intents and purposes, there is no difference between Khalifa and his followers and your average dogmatic bearded Sunni. Their rituals are the same. Their infatuation with miracles, holy men and their superficial looks are the same. Their use of Hadiths as a starting point for their preconceptions about the great reading is excatly the same. They also both believe in Code 19. In fact, many sectarians have learned Khalifa's tricks and are doing the same exact numerology that he did. Even Al-Azhar is now playing Khalifa's game and has recently authorized and blessed Code 19 and gave a distinctive award to a team of Code 19 hunters
http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549
Here is a very rough translation of the Arabic into English from Google Translate
http//translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.almasry-alyoum.com%2Fprinterfriendly.aspx%3FArticleID%3D61549&sl=ar&tl=en
So as I said, for all practical intents and purposes there is really no difference in attitude between 19ers and sectarians. Both are equally misguided and the sectarian's similar belief in Code 19 hasn't made them more guided. The only difference I see is that 19ers believe that Khalifa was a messenger. I don't think that I need to say more.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Lest anyone think that Ayman is just talking off the top of his head, here is the relevant evidence of RE-PACKAGED TRADITIONALISM from Khalifa's translation. As Ayman noted, Khalifa did add his own twists
Khalifa - Appendix 15
...must be observed during the four Sacred Months - Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, & Rabi
I (12th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd months)... ...the male pilgrim wears seamless sheets of material... ...upon arrival at the Sacred Mosque in Mecca, the pilgrim walks around the Kabah seven times...
...21 pebbles are picked up for the symbolic stoning of Satan at Mina....
...stoning ceremonies symbolize rejection of Satan's polytheism and are done by throwing seven pebbles at each of three stations...
...pilgrim then returns to Mecca and observes a farewell circumvolution of the Ka`bah seven times...Khalifa - Appendix 2
During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21, 1971, I, Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person, not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God's Messenger of the Covenant. I was not informed of the details and true significance of this event until Ramadan 1408.
What I witnessed, in sharp consciousness, was that I was sitting still, while the prophets, one by one, came towards me, looked at my face, then nodded their heads. God showed them to me as they had looked in this world, attired in their respective mode of dress. There was an atmosphere of great awe, joy, and respect.
Except for Abraham, none of the prophets was identified to me. I knew that all the prophets were there, including Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Aaron, David, Noah, and the rest. I believe that the reason for revealing Abraham's identity was that I asked about him. I was taken aback by the strong resemblance he had with my own family - myself, my father, my uncles. It was the only time that I wondered, "Who is this prophet who looks like my relatives?" The answer came "Abraham." No language was spoken. All communication was done mentally.
..."Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; and suddenly there will come to the temple the Lord whom you seek and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire, or like the fuller's lye."
Khalifa - Appendix 24
...I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59...
<< Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored." >>
...we realize that the false injections, 9128-129, were always suspect. For example, we read in Bukhary's famous Hadith, and Al-Suyuty's famous Itqaan, that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses "except Verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9; they were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary."
If anyone were to write a detailed exposition on this sort of re-packaged traditionalism, they could call it MANUFACTURING DISSENT. The evil influences of this world love false reformers, because anyone who attempts authentic reform would seem crazy. It's like saying, If Khalifa is a purifying reformer, anyone beyond him would be nuts! In truth, Khalifa gave "quran alone" a bad name, because he practiced nothing of the sort. I should not defend his followers.
Peace,
-David R. S. Aitken
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I Personnally Like Kalifah, Though I've never met him.
I mean judging him by the audio/video/writtings...it seems like he was a cool guy.I think He did Alot for the Quran Alone Movement. It was really one of the 1st times that America (non-muslims) were exposed to a new side of Islam that they were unfamiliar with. The Website Masjid Tuscan and submission.org was actually the 1st that I found..which later lead me here.
I think it would be incorrect to blame so much on kalifah and basicallly say he is lower than dirt. His work I feel was good and amounted to much in my eyes.
Whether there were errors or not, He to me was a Muslim man who wanted to show people there was more then tradionalist/hadithist Islam.
and at least for America...He did.Reffereing to His Dream....Im not going to judge him and say that he is Lieing or anything. Maybe He really did meet with the Prophets. Perhaps he Astral-Projected or was in REM Sleep and it was some kind of Spiritual Dream...I think we are all capable of many things when we sleep.
(Read Brother Abdun Noor's Article about the Pineal Gland and Muhammad btw)the Only thing I may have against Kalaifah, is that I think that to a point...There may have been some kind of Self-Grandizement.
When he said something along the lines of [he represents the 2nd comming of jesus, the al-mahdi, etc).
I dont know what he ment by that, and it sounds awfully odd. I dont think i would say that.if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.
On the Cult Leader Scale... I dont even think he'd pass. He'd probabily be a -5! rotfl whats the worse thing hes Done?
You'd reply.... Fake Messengership and Fake a Mathamatical Code...
Okay...that would be bad...no doubt...but at least he didnt kill tons of people have sex with millions of kids and get them drugged up.
Not too bad for a "Supposed" Cult Leader. laugh -
Selam RA786
I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.Peace
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Peace RA786,
if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.
I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.It is not about Khalifa. It is about 7431 showing us empirical proof through the attitude of people who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19. Khalifa is simply an example of those people. But the same applies to all avid Code 19 hunters who get aroused out of 19 divisibles. Seeing that those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19 are actually unappreciative of the great reading and have a disease in their heart/mind is what 7431 is about. It is abundantly clear that Khalifa (or anyone like him) is a perfect example of 7431 in action. This realization is what strengthens the faith of those who were given the book and those who have faith.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?
Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?
If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.
I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?
Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?
If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.
I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.
Peace,
Ayman
Selam Ayman
I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.
Peace
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Peace Hope4,
I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.
Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Ayman,
But this is What I am not realizing...
I dont see HOW believeing in the Code 19 would at all be ridiculing or "going against" the Great reading (Quran) in Any way.
In All actuality, I feel it has INCREASED my faith and Love for Islam...(as an addition to the Qurans Great miracles.)If there is a Group of Quran Aloners who believe in the Code 19...And Believe it is Only 1 of Many of the Great Miracles that are in the Quran that was creaded by Allah Allmighty... How exactly do you justify your claim against them by making allegations that they are Ridiculing the Quran and have a Disease in their Heart?
What Kind of Disease is it?
Quranamathalosis? -a condition where patients believe in a mathamatical miracle that interlocks/protects all of the Quran.
Would you really call that a Disease? it doesnt seem like a disease to me.Would you say the same thing about someone who believes in the other mircales of the Quran? Such as the Embryology of a Child? the Measrure of Rain and Water cycle? and the Bioluminesence?
All of these are also Scientific Miracles in the Quran in which I too believe however ANY SCIENTIST (who's a non-muslim) WILL tell you that ALL of these Supposed "Quran Miracles of Science" are Flawed, Erronious, manipulated, fake, and Only created to make Some Deluded Mind believe in Miracles of a Supposed GOD.So whats the difference between them and you Ayman? They say the exact same thing about those miracles.
Here is the Main Questions/Points I would like to Bring up to you Ayman, if Possible.
*1. Muslims Believe the the Quran IS "Protected" by somekind of "Divine Code"/Seal/Lock/etc... And they use this to encourage others to join ISLAM because of this. Muslims Believe Allah (GOD ALMIGHTY) has protected the Quran from being Changed/distorted/deleted..etc...
SO MY QUESTION to you IS A) Do you believe that the Quran is Protected?
B) Can you "PROVE" that the Quran is Protected?1B- It would seem a little Odd to believe that the Quran IS protected and not being able to Prove so for the simple fact that many people have actually Created their own Qurans. They over the years, have Deleted/Distorted/Tampered/Un-locked/etc.... the Quran.
There are numerious different Qurans in the world are there not?
If a Guy Named Joe Wartime decided one day that He wanted to Take 13 vereses out of the Quran, Then Wrote his Own Vereses...Then took some lyrics from a couple Michael Jackson Records...and then put them into his Book and called it "The Holy Quran"....Then went to a forighn Country that never Heard of the Quran and They read it as such....."WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM"?
Is he going to Burst into Fire? Is Lightning going to strike him? Is Allah Going to Stop him? (I dont know)...BUT!! What I DO know, is that this in many examples has ALREADY HAPPENED.
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah talked about when Rashad Khalifah Took out Two Vereses?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has Talked about when some Kaffir Forged a Ayat Called Surah 911 and wrote it himself?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has talked about when you have different Qurans made, and Even going to STILL BE made to this Day that are 100% Different from ANY quran you have? (-Daniel Pips I hear is working on this Project Btw)SO WHERE IS This Supposed "Lock/Protection/absence of any error or doubt/Seal that was placeed in the Quran?
I believe it to be Mathamatical. Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used.
Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.So far Code 19 has Given me an Answer as to "What and Where is the Seal/Protection/Code that was talked about in the Quran.
If you have a better Answer Please Share...I am Dying to know. Where this Seal/Protection is and how to varify it. D
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Peace Hope4,
Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.
Peace,
Ayman
So whats the Truth? That there IS NO Code 19?
*That there is NO Seal/Protection on the Quran?
*That the Quran is Open and Subject to change over time depending on Location/Culture/Society like Every Other Book ever created.. -
I had discussed this issue in detail with Ayman a few years ago. Those who are interested to hear both sides, please visit the BOOKS section of www.19.org
Peace,
Edip -
Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used. Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.
The problem with attributing a numerological code to the book of the god is that the god has already descended clarifying signs to protect us from the temptation of numerology.
7426-31 I will cast him in the scorching heat. Do you know what the scorching heat is? It does not spare nor leave anything; obvious to humanity. On it are ninteen, and we have not made associates of the fire except "angels" and we have not made their count except as a temptation for the rejectors - so that those who were given the book would understand, those who had faith would increase in faith, and those who were given the book and those who had faith would have no doubt. ...
Khalifa knew that he was playing games with numbers. In 1973 he released a small book called "Miracle of the Quran Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets" and attracted some attention from Egypt's Akher Saah ( ة (http//www.akhbarelyom.org.eg/). At this point - 1973 - he had not yet been tempted to manipulate his numbers into false multiples of 19. He reported the following
Chapter 2 - ALM - 9465 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5714 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5349 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2522 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2514 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2405 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1206 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 922 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1682 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1261 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 823 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 581 (not a multiple of 19)In 1974, when he was tempted by 19, he deliberately manipulated the data
Chapter 2 - ALM - 9899 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5662 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5320 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2375 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1197 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 912 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1672 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1254 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 817 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 570 (a falsified multiple of 19)Edip is no different. In order to make 1974 the year of his messengers' prophecy, he continues to lie about the basic structure of the reading. He says that the gematrical value of 741-2 is 1974 - a great miracle in his mind (http//19.org/index.php?aid=257). If you apply the innovated gematrical value system to 741-2, the value is actually 1973. Edip added an alif to support his lies.
Numerology can be used to prove anything, including Khalifa's racist hope that the god would wipe out "the Arabs"
http//img708.imageshack.us/img708/9915/19manipulation.png
When you witness the temptation of counting 19, your faith will increase and you will have no doubt. If you're excited by counting 19, then you're being tempted to waste your time on non-existent miracles. May the god protect us from temptation and guide us to study the reading to keep our faces oriented towards truth, not superficial rituals or numerological number games.
Peace,
-David
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peace david....
But maybe I am just stupid or something because I SILL dont understand How counting is a temptation.
How would believing in the Code 19 be a temptation? How could simply believeing in a Mircle (either true or false) be a temptation?
Is it A) Shirk?No
B) an Intoxicant? No..
C) a game of Chance? uh...your not really "gambling" so I'd say No.
D)a partner to Allah? No..So really....How "bad" could it be? and not only that...how do you know that the verese Quoted above is in the exact Context in which you are using it?
I am going to have to look at the Root-words in that verese to see if it is really talking about that in the way you are using it.Believing that a Rainbow is a Miracle of God is Cool...some will say it is and some say its not.
How is believeing in a Mathamatical not good?Btw...nobody replyed to my post about a movie I saw.
So I'll post it again here...Let me know what you all think.
The Torah has this Numerology type of Code...Can the same be used for the Quran?
Video Number 2 Torah, Kabbalah, and Numbers.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcN2i9GKsFQLink fixed