Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
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Peace all,
Could we make a comparison between these three tests/trials
- We are sending the camel as a test for them. So observe them and be patient.
Inna mursiloo alnnaqati fitnatan lahum fairtaqibhum waistabir
7431 And We have made the guardians/keepers of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say ?What did God mean with an example such as this?? It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
Wama jaAAalna as-habaalnnari illa mala-ikatan wamajaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo liyastayqina allatheena ootoo alkitabawayazdada allatheena amanoo eemananwala yartaba allatheena ootoo alkitabawaalmu/minoona waliyaqoola allatheena feequloobihim maradun waalkafiroona mathaarada Allahu bihatha mathalan kathalikayudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashaowama yaAAlamu junooda rabbika illa huwa wamahiya illa thikra lilbashari
- And when We said to you ?Your Lord has encompassed mankind.? And We did not make the vision that We showed you except as a test for mankind, and tree that was cursed in the Quran. And We are making them fearful, but it only increases their transgression.
Wa-ith qulna laka inna rabbakaahata bialnnasi wama jaAAalnaalrru/ya allatee araynaka illa fitnatan lilnnasi waalshshajarataalmalAAoonata fee alqur-ani wanukhawwifuhum famayazeeduhum illa tughyanan kabeeran
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
Are we tested by their number in the same way than Tamud by the camel?
Looking for your thoughts based only on quranic proofs.
Thanks
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Salaam Marie,
I am taking notes so feel free to comment or ignore D
Highlighting the verbs in brown and the our subject of focus in blue
Wa-ila thamooda akhahum salihanqala ya qawmi oAAbudoo Allaha malakum min ilahin ghayruhu qad jaatkum bayyinatunmin rabbikum hathihi naqatu Allahi lakum ayatanfatharooha ta/kul fee ardi Allahi walatamassooha bisoo-in faya/khuthakum AAathabunaleemun
To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren He said "O my people! worship Allah ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.
FaAAaqaroo alnnaqata waAAatawAAan amri rabbihim waqaloo ya salihui/tina bima taAAiduna in kunta minaalmursaleena
Then they ham-strung the she-camel, and insolently defied the order of their Lord, saying "O Salih! bring about thy threats, if thou art a messenger (of Allah)!"
Waya qawmi hathihi naqatuAllahi lakum ayatan fatharooha ta/kulfee ardi Allahi wala tamassoohabisoo-in faya/khuthakum AAathabun qareebun
"And O my people! This she-camel of Allah is a symbol to you leave her to feed on Allah's (free) earth, and inflict no harm on her, or a swift penalty will seize you!"
Wama manaAAana an nursila bial-ayatiilla an kaththaba biha al-awwaloona waataynathamooda alnnaqata mubsiratan fathalamoobiha wama nursilu bial-ayatiilla takhweefan
And We refrain from sending the signs, only because the men of former generations treated them as false We sent the she-camel to the Thamud to open their eyes, but they treated her wrongfully We only send the Signs by way of terror (and warning from evil).
Qala hathihi naqatunlaha shirbun walakum shirbu yawmin maAAloomin
He said "Here is a she-camel she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.
Inna mursiloo alnnaqatifitnatan lahum fairtaqibhum waistabir
For We will send the she-camel by way of trial for them. So watch them, (O Salih), and possess thyself in patience!
Faqala lahum rasoolu Allahi naqataAllahi wasuqyaha
But the Messenger of Allah said to them "It is a She-camel of Allah! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
Red Interpolation?
Green Something helpful.Notes
1-) Do these verbs vindicate the sign is a she camel? Or is this something allegorical?
2-) Do the verbs make sense? How are the verbs used elsewhere in the reading?
3-)So far there is no inconsistency in translation but the issue of logic. How is it a "naqat" a test?
4-) For me a trial is that you take a course of action which results in a good or bad outcome
How did the slaughtering of a camel result in ruin? How can we explain this with laws of the universe we know?
Next I think I am going to check the verbs GW.
P.S. There has to be a common thread between these trials, maybe inline with cause and effect, but without verifying these seperately this will remain as conjecture.
Peace
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Salaam Ash Shuura,
I try to comment your first question
1-) Do these verbs vindicate the sign is a she camel? Or is this something allegorical?
There is a good lesson for us from the story of Tamud. The she-camel is a test for their submission to the God's commands
"leave her to feed on Allah's (free) earth, and inflict no harm on her, or a swift penalty will seize you!"
"..she has a right of watering, and ye have a right of watering, (severally) on a day appointed.
"...so let her drink" 9113
They violated the God's command and failed their test when they treated her wrongfully.
We can make an analogy with the story in the chapter 2; why did the God order the people of Moses to slaughter a heifer (267)..., Does the god need a cow to bring the dead to life (273) ?
The response is No.
This is a test for their submission to the God's order in the same time to expose what they concealed
"So they sacrificed her with great reluctance" (271)
272 And remember, when you killed a man and blamed one another for this although Allah will expose what you would conceal.
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peace be upon you,
I agree with Shabbir Ahmed's view of the she-camel story
773 The people of Thamud were successors to Aad. To them We sent their brother, Saleh. He said, ?O My people! Serve Allah. You have no other god but He. The Clear Truth has come to you from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah, a token for your obedience. So let her feed in Allah?s earth and do not harm her lest painful torment seize you.? (Their feudal lords controlled land, crop, oases and water resources, and the weak were suffering. Saleh assigned a she-camel as a symbol of their reformation).
774 Saleh said, ?Remember how He made you inherit the land after Aad and established you therein. You build castles in the valleys and carve out homes in the mountains. So, remember Allah?s bounties and do not spread corruption in the land.?
775 Their leaders said to the believers, "How do you know that Saleh is sent from his Lord?" They responded, "We believe in the Message he has brought.? (The bringer of such Sublime Message cannot be a liar).
776 (The arrogant leaders and the feudal lords could see their vested interests getting hit, so they decided to reject the Divine Message.) The arrogant ones said to the believers, ?We reject what you believe in.?
777 They killed the she-camel, rebelled against their Lord?s Command and challenged, ?O? Saleh! Bring the doom you threaten us with, if you are really a Messenger.?
778 (In their life of luxury, like other strong nations they felt invincible.) The destruction came from under their feet. A powerful earthquake annihilated them, leaving them lifeless in their homes.
779 Saleh was grieved that his people disregarded the Message of his Lord. He moved away from the township saying to himself, ?O My people! I gave my Lord?s Message to you, and advised you sincerely, but you never liked good advisers.?The God doesn't want us to blindly submit to His commands, we should not fall on his signs deaf and dumb but use logic and reason to find out why The God has forbidden something or commanded something, the children of isreal were ordered to slaughter the calf in order to rid the idolatry from their hearts, The God didn't just tell them to do it for no reason
peace
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Peace be upon you ,
Very good discussion. I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen. There appears to be something deeper though that we are missing.
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Salam Idris, Kyle,
The God doesn't want us to blindly submit to His commands, we should not fall on his signs deaf and dumb but use logic and reason to find out why The God has forbidden something or commanded something,
.The God's commands are clear and not absurd (1164, 2615, 9113).
Those who submitted humbly to the God's commands were saved with Salih but those who treated wrongfully the she-camel are those who were taken by the scream and lay motionless in their homes.
the children of isreal were ordered to slaughter the calf in order to rid the idolatry from their hearts, The God didn't just tell them to do it for no reason
Can you quote me the verse which said that or is it just your own interpretation?
The reason for slaughtering a heifer is explained in the reading (272-73).
I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen.
The goal of this test is to distinguish those who choose to submit humbly to these clear commands (1164, 2615, 9113) and those who violated them.
Peace
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Peace be upon you ,
Very good discussion. I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen. There appears to be something deeper though that we are missing.
Dear Kyle,
The FITNA is not to be left alone - the CAMEL is - ie. naqata. They may not have listened - but it seems that you really have an agenda or an axe to grind regarding the FITNA ie. TEST of the NUMBER.
Each case is a TEST (FITNA) - the Thamud failed by interfering/killing the she-camel. There is a similar failure amongst those stumbling around the NUMBER - 19.
7431 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected
It's a test for unbelievers or rejecters.
, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
The believers benefit from the NUMBER. Their faith is increased and their doubt is erased. It is not a test for them. They acknowledge that it's a manifest sign of God's authorship of the reading.
and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say "What did God mean with an example such as this?"
It is those who have doubt/sickness in their hearts who are exposed. The test exposes them in that they ask the question stated.
Interestingly marie asks a question at the end of her post starting this thread...
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
While not the exact words of 7431 it is in a similar vein. Many here have asked such questions. The believers examine the evidence and the 19 sign manifests itself.
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
Indeed only God knows who His soldiers are.
2118
Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only GOD could speak to us, or some sign could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the signs for those who have attained certainty.All people share the human condition no matter which time they lived. God makes it clear that His signs are for those who are firm in faith.
Peace.
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Peace truth all,
I was just reading this yesterday, the verse came into my mind while reading your understanding...
484 He is the One who sends down tranquility into the hearts of the believers, so that they may increase in faith along with their present faith. And to God belongs the soldiers of the heavens and the Earth, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
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Peace Nadia all,
I should have mentioned that the parallel between what I indicated for the NUMBER and the CAMEL is true in terms of who it is a FITNA/TEST for.
The she-camel was NOT a TEST for the believers or Saleh - ie. those who respected the inherent right of the animal to drink and feed off the resources that God provides. The test was only for the rejecters.
The NUMBER is similarly therefore a TEST for rejecters - they are exposed through it.
Here's my attempt at an analogy - for a mathematician a question in algebra would not be a test but rather a straightforward and routine thing. It is however a test for those who are challenged by it ie. those who are ignorant of algebra or weak in it.
Regards.
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Peace truth,
I agree, I understood what you explained...thus the verse which came into my mind while reading the post, it augmented & agreed with some specific points in your understanding imo.
Nadia
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Peace all,
Those who were weak and believed from amongst Tamud believed in what Salih has been sent with (775), but those who were arrogant reject his message (776) like the people of Nooh and other messengers.
Before the annihilation of Tamud?s rejectors (778 ), the God sent to them the camel with foresight to make them fearful (1759), but they failed their test and defied God?s command (777, 1777) and the promise of the God was fulfilled (778 ).Just after 1759, we read
- And when We said to you ?Your Lord has encompassed mankind.? And We did not make the vision that We showed you except as a test for mankind, and tree that was cursed in the Quran. And We are making them fearful, but it only increases their transgression.
Wa-ith qulna laka inna rabbakaahata bialnnasi wama jaAAalna alrru/ya allatee araynaka illa fitnatan lilnnasi waalshshajarataalmalAAoonata fee alqur-ani wanukhawwifuhum famayazeeduhum illa tughyanan kabeeran
The tree that was cursed in the reading is also to make us fearful in the same way than the she-camel towards the rejectors of the divine message.
All what I can say for the moment we should not neglect the test described in 7431, it is a reminder for us.
May the God show us the real meaning of this test which is the number of the guardians of the Fire (7426-29).
Peace
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Peace be upon you ,
Very good discussion. I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen. There appears to be something deeper though that we are missing.
Salaam Kyle,
I was exactly implying whether there was something deeper. Though I don't think it said leave the "FITNA" it asked to leave the "naqat" alone.
A question is why would they hamstrung as opposed to slaughter for example...
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May the state of Peace be upon you rather than dearness,
Dear Kyle,
The FITNA is not to be left alone - the CAMEL is - ie. naqata
Agreed, in the other case the camel is equal to thier count.
. They may not have listened - but it seems that you really have an agenda or an axe to grind regarding the FITNA ie. TEST of the NUMBER.
If what you mean by "axe to grind" is that I am sharpening my axe so I can seperate cleanly truth from falsehood, then yes, you are right, I am steadily gringing my axe D
Each case is a TEST (FITNA) - the Thamud failed by interfering/killing the she-camel. There is a similar failure amongst those stumbling around the NUMBER - 19.
I agree, and this is what I try to point out. Should I not recite the God's reading?
7431 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected
It's a test for unbelievers or rejecters.
Yes, and that has been my argument.
, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
The believers benefit from the NUMBER. Their faith is increased and their doubt is erased. It is not a test for them. They acknowledge that it's a manifest sign of God's authorship of the reading.
Woah! Good thing I had my seatbelt on! How did you get to "autorship"?
Let me relay to you an understanding of THE COUNT of 1-9 from earlier philosophies. The mental realm was described by 9 faculties(nine signs of Musa), While 10 represented the physical world, where most people are foused. So it is stated that from 1-3 relates to the realm of (God- likeness), and the other 6 faculties are the faculties of creation (the God says He created the skies and earth in 6 time periods)
So again, the COUNT from 1-9 is the UNSEEN STEPS leading to 10 Physical world. The God is continually showing us the MENTAL PROCESS of the mind(nafs), he describes these things as "malaika"(commanders) and "shayteen"(emotions) and all kinds of symbolisms. But the UNSEEN WORLD is a trial to most people, they are stuck in the PHYSCIAL WORLD, where they need to think that sticks REALLY turn into snakes instead of describing a mental perception, they need to search for PHYSICAL 19's as authorship of the God's message when there is has already been more than sufficient proof since before a man named Rashad Khalifa and before a book called "Quran".
and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say "What did God mean with an example such as this?"
Exactly.
It is those who have doubt/sickness in their hearts who are exposed. The test exposes them in that they ask the question stated.
The constant search for more 19's shows who is still questioning.
Interestingly marie asks a question at the end of her post starting this thread...
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
We all ask that question until we get the understanding, if you are still looking for more 19 patterns, you too are asking the question.
While not the exact words of 7431 it is in a similar vein. Many here have asked such questions. The believers examine the evidence and the 19 sign manifests itself.
The so called evidence is based on many conjectures, including the removal of two verses, how do we know that there are other verses that were added and that we should get rid of 18 more occurences so it will still add up to 19? DO you see that faulty logic?
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
Indeed only God knows who His soldiers are.
Yes, I certainly agree.
2118
Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only GOD could speak to us, or some sign could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the signs for those who have attained certainty.Yes, because those who DO KNOW understand that he God DOES speak to us and DOES show us the signs, the God speaks to those with certainty (KNOWING).
All people share the human condition no matter which time they lived. God makes it clear that His signs are for those who are firm in faith.
I agree.
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The God's commands are clear and not absurd (1164, 2615, 9113).
Those who submitted humbly to the God's commands were saved with Salih but those who treated wrongfully the she-camel are those who were taken by the scream and lay motionless in their homes.
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.
Can you quote me the verse which said that or is it just your own interpretation?
The reason for slaughtering a heifer is explained in the reading (272-73).
explain to me how the two signs connect to the story of the calf being slaughtered
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The God's commands are clear and not absurd (1164, 2615, 9113).
Those who submitted humbly to the God's commands were saved with Salih but those who treated wrongfully the she-camel are those who were taken by the scream and lay motionless in their homes.
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something.
Notice that the people of Moses asked only about the description of the heifer not why should they slaughter her.
Their response in 267 ?Do you mock us?? is clear, I think because they didn't know why the God orders them to slaughter a heifer. Then, they asked only about the description of the heifer (268-71). We can read between the lines of 267 and 268 to get the full picture.
Can you quote me the verse which said that or is it just your own interpretation?
The reason for slaughtering a heifer is explained in the reading (272-73).
explain to me how the two signs connect to the story of the calf being slaughtered
The answer is given in 272-73.
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Salaam Marie,
Notice that the people of Moses asked only about the description of the heifer not why should they slaughter her.
I believe the reply of musa to the people also shows how he is telling the people how the command of Allah should be obeyed when he sought to not be in league with the ignorant .
Joe
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Peace all,
The she-camel was NOT a TEST for the believers or Saleh - ie. those who respected the inherent right of the animal to drink and feed off the resources that God provides. The test was only for the rejecters.
The NUMBER is similarly therefore a TEST for rejecters - they are exposed through it.
I think the she-camel in the same way than the number of the guardians of the Fire is a test for those who reject the whole message or a part of it.
Peace
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Peace Marie,
I don't think i've understood properly, please explain again what the reasoning is acc to the ayats in question, thanks!
Are you saying that the count (19) is a test/trial like that of the she camel? So if one rejects the test, i.e 19/the count/she camel, one is an unbeliever as they fail to recognize it as a sign? If one accepts the 19/the count/she camel and it's right to exist (as a sign for e.g) one is a believer and is not affected by the test?
Nadia
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Salaam Nadia,
Sorry for the confusion, if you read my last post Another Running Like Zebras in Submitters / Code 19 category, you will understand better my statement.
The she-camel is a test for those who reject the message of Salih and the code 19 is a test for those who reject a part of this reading (9128-129)..
None knows their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Book of Decree, the Eternity) but Allah. Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep drawing lessons from them (37) (7431).
The code 19 is a good illustration of 37.
Peace