Fitna/Test/Trial (54:27, 74:31, 17:60..) ?
-
Peace be upon you ,
Very good discussion. I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen. There appears to be something deeper though that we are missing.
Dear Kyle,
The FITNA is not to be left alone - the CAMEL is - ie. naqata. They may not have listened - but it seems that you really have an agenda or an axe to grind regarding the FITNA ie. TEST of the NUMBER.
Each case is a TEST (FITNA) - the Thamud failed by interfering/killing the she-camel. There is a similar failure amongst those stumbling around the NUMBER - 19.
7431 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected
It's a test for unbelievers or rejecters.
, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
The believers benefit from the NUMBER. Their faith is increased and their doubt is erased. It is not a test for them. They acknowledge that it's a manifest sign of God's authorship of the reading.
and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say "What did God mean with an example such as this?"
It is those who have doubt/sickness in their hearts who are exposed. The test exposes them in that they ask the question stated.
Interestingly marie asks a question at the end of her post starting this thread...
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
While not the exact words of 7431 it is in a similar vein. Many here have asked such questions. The believers examine the evidence and the 19 sign manifests itself.
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
Indeed only God knows who His soldiers are.
2118
Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only GOD could speak to us, or some sign could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the signs for those who have attained certainty.All people share the human condition no matter which time they lived. God makes it clear that His signs are for those who are firm in faith.
Peace.
-
Peace truth all,
I was just reading this yesterday, the verse came into my mind while reading your understanding...
484 He is the One who sends down tranquility into the hearts of the believers, so that they may increase in faith along with their present faith. And to God belongs the soldiers of the heavens and the Earth, and God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
-
Peace Nadia all,
I should have mentioned that the parallel between what I indicated for the NUMBER and the CAMEL is true in terms of who it is a FITNA/TEST for.
The she-camel was NOT a TEST for the believers or Saleh - ie. those who respected the inherent right of the animal to drink and feed off the resources that God provides. The test was only for the rejecters.
The NUMBER is similarly therefore a TEST for rejecters - they are exposed through it.
Here's my attempt at an analogy - for a mathematician a question in algebra would not be a test but rather a straightforward and routine thing. It is however a test for those who are challenged by it ie. those who are ignorant of algebra or weak in it.
Regards.
-
Peace truth,
I agree, I understood what you explained...thus the verse which came into my mind while reading the post, it augmented & agreed with some specific points in your understanding imo.
Nadia
-
Peace all,
Those who were weak and believed from amongst Tamud believed in what Salih has been sent with (775), but those who were arrogant reject his message (776) like the people of Nooh and other messengers.
Before the annihilation of Tamud?s rejectors (778 ), the God sent to them the camel with foresight to make them fearful (1759), but they failed their test and defied God?s command (777, 1777) and the promise of the God was fulfilled (778 ).Just after 1759, we read
- And when We said to you ?Your Lord has encompassed mankind.? And We did not make the vision that We showed you except as a test for mankind, and tree that was cursed in the Quran. And We are making them fearful, but it only increases their transgression.
Wa-ith qulna laka inna rabbakaahata bialnnasi wama jaAAalna alrru/ya allatee araynaka illa fitnatan lilnnasi waalshshajarataalmalAAoonata fee alqur-ani wanukhawwifuhum famayazeeduhum illa tughyanan kabeeran
The tree that was cursed in the reading is also to make us fearful in the same way than the she-camel towards the rejectors of the divine message.
All what I can say for the moment we should not neglect the test described in 7431, it is a reminder for us.
May the God show us the real meaning of this test which is the number of the guardians of the Fire (7426-29).
Peace
-
Peace be upon you ,
Very good discussion. I notice that the God told them to leave the FITNA alone, but they didn't listen. There appears to be something deeper though that we are missing.
Salaam Kyle,
I was exactly implying whether there was something deeper. Though I don't think it said leave the "FITNA" it asked to leave the "naqat" alone.
A question is why would they hamstrung as opposed to slaughter for example...
-
May the state of Peace be upon you rather than dearness,
Dear Kyle,
The FITNA is not to be left alone - the CAMEL is - ie. naqata
Agreed, in the other case the camel is equal to thier count.
. They may not have listened - but it seems that you really have an agenda or an axe to grind regarding the FITNA ie. TEST of the NUMBER.
If what you mean by "axe to grind" is that I am sharpening my axe so I can seperate cleanly truth from falsehood, then yes, you are right, I am steadily gringing my axe D
Each case is a TEST (FITNA) - the Thamud failed by interfering/killing the she-camel. There is a similar failure amongst those stumbling around the NUMBER - 19.
I agree, and this is what I try to point out. Should I not recite the God's reading?
7431 And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be Angels; and We did not make their number except as a test for those who have rejected
It's a test for unbelievers or rejecters.
Yes, and that has been my argument.
, so that those who were given the Scripture would understand, and those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt,
The believers benefit from the NUMBER. Their faith is increased and their doubt is erased. It is not a test for them. They acknowledge that it's a manifest sign of God's authorship of the reading.
Woah! Good thing I had my seatbelt on! How did you get to "autorship"?
Let me relay to you an understanding of THE COUNT of 1-9 from earlier philosophies. The mental realm was described by 9 faculties(nine signs of Musa), While 10 represented the physical world, where most people are foused. So it is stated that from 1-3 relates to the realm of (God- likeness), and the other 6 faculties are the faculties of creation (the God says He created the skies and earth in 6 time periods)
So again, the COUNT from 1-9 is the UNSEEN STEPS leading to 10 Physical world. The God is continually showing us the MENTAL PROCESS of the mind(nafs), he describes these things as "malaika"(commanders) and "shayteen"(emotions) and all kinds of symbolisms. But the UNSEEN WORLD is a trial to most people, they are stuck in the PHYSCIAL WORLD, where they need to think that sticks REALLY turn into snakes instead of describing a mental perception, they need to search for PHYSICAL 19's as authorship of the God's message when there is has already been more than sufficient proof since before a man named Rashad Khalifa and before a book called "Quran".
and so that those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would Say "What did God mean with an example such as this?"
Exactly.
It is those who have doubt/sickness in their hearts who are exposed. The test exposes them in that they ask the question stated.
The constant search for more 19's shows who is still questioning.
Interestingly marie asks a question at the end of her post starting this thread...
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
We all ask that question until we get the understanding, if you are still looking for more 19 patterns, you too are asking the question.
While not the exact words of 7431 it is in a similar vein. Many here have asked such questions. The believers examine the evidence and the 19 sign manifests itself.
The so called evidence is based on many conjectures, including the removal of two verses, how do we know that there are other verses that were added and that we should get rid of 18 more occurences so it will still add up to 19? DO you see that faulty logic?
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord's soldiers except Him. And it is but a reminder for mankind.
Indeed only God knows who His soldiers are.
Yes, I certainly agree.
2118
Those who possess no knowledge say, "If only GOD could speak to us, or some sign could come to us!" Others before them have uttered similar utterances; their minds are similar. We do manifest the signs for those who have attained certainty.Yes, because those who DO KNOW understand that he God DOES speak to us and DOES show us the signs, the God speaks to those with certainty (KNOWING).
All people share the human condition no matter which time they lived. God makes it clear that His signs are for those who are firm in faith.
I agree.
-
The God's commands are clear and not absurd (1164, 2615, 9113).
Those who submitted humbly to the God's commands were saved with Salih but those who treated wrongfully the she-camel are those who were taken by the scream and lay motionless in their homes.
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s signs, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.
Can you quote me the verse which said that or is it just your own interpretation?
The reason for slaughtering a heifer is explained in the reading (272-73).
explain to me how the two signs connect to the story of the calf being slaughtered
-
The God's commands are clear and not absurd (1164, 2615, 9113).
Those who submitted humbly to the God's commands were saved with Salih but those who treated wrongfully the she-camel are those who were taken by the scream and lay motionless in their homes.
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something.
Notice that the people of Moses asked only about the description of the heifer not why should they slaughter her.
Their response in 267 ?Do you mock us?? is clear, I think because they didn't know why the God orders them to slaughter a heifer. Then, they asked only about the description of the heifer (268-71). We can read between the lines of 267 and 268 to get the full picture.
Can you quote me the verse which said that or is it just your own interpretation?
The reason for slaughtering a heifer is explained in the reading (272-73).
explain to me how the two signs connect to the story of the calf being slaughtered
The answer is given in 272-73.
-
Salaam Marie,
Notice that the people of Moses asked only about the description of the heifer not why should they slaughter her.
I believe the reply of musa to the people also shows how he is telling the people how the command of Allah should be obeyed when he sought to not be in league with the ignorant .
Joe
-
Peace all,
The she-camel was NOT a TEST for the believers or Saleh - ie. those who respected the inherent right of the animal to drink and feed off the resources that God provides. The test was only for the rejecters.
The NUMBER is similarly therefore a TEST for rejecters - they are exposed through it.
I think the she-camel in the same way than the number of the guardians of the Fire is a test for those who reject the whole message or a part of it.
Peace
-
Peace Marie,
I don't think i've understood properly, please explain again what the reasoning is acc to the ayats in question, thanks!
Are you saying that the count (19) is a test/trial like that of the she camel? So if one rejects the test, i.e 19/the count/she camel, one is an unbeliever as they fail to recognize it as a sign? If one accepts the 19/the count/she camel and it's right to exist (as a sign for e.g) one is a believer and is not affected by the test?
Nadia
-
Salaam Nadia,
Sorry for the confusion, if you read my last post Another Running Like Zebras in Submitters / Code 19 category, you will understand better my statement.
The she-camel is a test for those who reject the message of Salih and the code 19 is a test for those who reject a part of this reading (9128-129)..
None knows their final meaning (of such as the Essence of God, His Throne, His Book of Decree, the Eternity) but Allah. Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep drawing lessons from them (37) (7431).
The code 19 is a good illustration of 37.
Peace
-
peace be upon you hlatif,
Salam All,
Idris wrote
agreed, but we still should not follow The God blindly but use reason and logic to find out why He ordered something
Can you elaborate on this point? and what are your proofs from the Qur'an?
ThanksHussein
I mean that we should verify what is in this reading as well as we do with everything else and see if it is the truth before excepting it as The God's words, this includes His commands which we should not just say "we should obey it just because it says The God said so" but we should say "we should obey it because (insert a/the reason why The God forbade it)"
2573 And those who when they are reminded of their Lord?s signs/verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind.
1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.
482 Do they not reflect on the reading? If it was from any other than The God they would have found in it much discrepancy.
i could provide more, but those came to my mind automatically
-
Peace Marie, all
I understand what you have made clear!
I have another question though...what about those that accept the 19 as a sign but do not reject part of the message?
Could this be the test? Those that reject would take it to the extreme, maybe putting their own opinion over that of the message thereby exposing themselves?
Those who are well founded in knowledge understand why the allegories have been used and they keep drawing lessons from them (37) (7431).
No doubt brother Kyle would be overjoyed! )
The code 19 is a good illustration of 37.
I agree, the way it is majorly today and anything in which one's own opinion or ego becomes more important than the actual message would be an illustration of 37.
Nadia
-
Peace Marie,
The 'Fitna' is not the object or the number (such as the camel or 19) but what is done with them (or not done)...
What is the purpose of 19? Was it just to create chaos and camps of those 'for' and those 'against'?
Or, are we missing its purpose and thus falling into the fitna?
All these are questions I do not have the certainty of answering at this stage...
-
Peace Nadia, Layth, all
I understand what you have made clear!
I have another question though...what about those that accept the 19 as a sign but do not reject part of the message?
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Could this be the test? Those that reject would take it to the extreme, maybe putting their own opinion over that of the message thereby exposing themselves?
This count (19) is not a test/temptation for those who say "We believe in it (the book), all is from our Lord" (37). It is a test/temptation for those who reject a part of the book and lose their faith about all its verses/sign.
Those who use the code 19 to prove the theory about 9128-129 cannot say "all is from our Lord"
The she-camel is both a visible sign (1759) and a test (5427), the count of the keepers of the fire is only a trial/temptation not a sign. We have to reject a temptation and keep our faith firm and not lose it.
In 2102, there is a good lesson for us "..They did not teach anyone until they would Say ?We are a test, so do not lose faith!?
The 'Fitna' is not the object or the number (such as the camel or 19) but what is done with them (or not done)...
I agree, the code 19 is one of the purpose of this test which leads people to fall into the fitna/rejection of two sign/verses of this reading 9128-129. I think that answers my first question
How could we be tested by the number of the guardians of the Fire which is described in 7426-29?
If we don't reject this temptation , we will fall into rejection of some verse/sign of the God's book.
-
Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
I don't know what it proves for me, or what benefit it has for me in particular as i'm still studying both sides...I asked this question on the basis that there are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
By the way, not everyone will be satisfied with anothers explanation of what it proves for them...as we are all different and see things differently, as long as they increase in faith and don't reject the message, i don't see what the issue would be...Would like your observations please
Nadia
-
Salam Nadia
Peace Marie,
What you mean by the acceptance of the code 19?
What does it prove for you?
Meaning an acceptance of a sign as present, thats all.
The count of the Fire keepers is not sign/ayat but only fitna/trial/temptation for those who reject..
When those who use the code 19 to prove their theory about 9128-129 said don't reject this fitna, if we believe in the book, that would only increase our faith and we should say "all is from our Lord"There are many people who believe in some kind of pattern in the reading, of a number, that does not appear to be random.
I think this is the seductive aspect of this temptation like for the people of Moses when they made from their ornaments a calf body which has a lowing (714, IMHO. We can consider this lowing as a one of the seductive aspects of this temptation (the calf).
and for them it increases their faith...these particular people do not disbelieve in any part of the reading, but their faith increases all the same...for them it's just another one of God's signs like the sun rising.
I would like to know what your interpretation says on the behalf of people like them who do not reject any part of the reading...where do they stand in this trial?
All what I can say, the wise attitude is to reject the temptation and not to fall in it whatever their seductuve aspects. Without this seductive aspect, it would not be a true temptation for those who see 19 everywhere twisted
"19", the count of the Fire keepers is decribed in the reading as a fitna not an ayat/sign like the she-camel. Our faith should be increased only by the God's signs.
May the God guide us to the straight path
