How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Slave girls... you ever heard of them? That's the other part of the nisa/zawja equation as referenced in quran 2433. What you say? It's the same thing technically. Nikah is a contract, bondage is a contract with less property rights because of the agreement that woman makes for extra money.
It's not sex before marriage, it's sex as not with nikah, but the alternative. Normally a muslimah cannot be a slave woman. A muslimah cannot marry a non-muslim. A muslim cannot have a slave if he has no wealth for such a thing, or cannot do justice to such women.
I might be wrong... think about it. Does that way work out along the lines of the verses that reference women? Because this is the only way for a muslim to have relationship and children with a paganess or atheist. Contract, but no property rights.
Salam Far
Am I right in saying that you understand azwaaj to mean more then just wives as in an MMA can be an azwaaj?
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Salam Nimnimak,
I know you said you are going to completely answer my post "separately in another post".However, I have clear proof that you still haven't read my post properly. I asked that you look at verses 3350-3355. Through glossing over these verses, you have completely ignored a conclusive argument against your theory. Look at 3355 in particular. This verse addresses the prophets wives. I don't need to explain to you issues that would arise if MMA means Fiance (let me just hint that, it would mean the Prophet's wives are cheating on him). I look forward to you addressing this point as well as the ones you have not yet addressed.
God willing you will have no doubt after you do this. I certainly have no more doubt.
In any case, I won't address your post until you completely address mine.
3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things. -
Salam Far
Am I right in saying that you understand azwaaj to mean more then just wives as in an MMA can be an azwaaj?
MMA? No it can mean contracted slave women. You can refer to the hadiths of the prophet, and how they did it. But I understand people here don't like history.
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Salam Nimnimak,
I know you said you are going to completely answer my post "separately in another post".However, I have clear proof that you still haven't read my post properly. I asked that you look at verses 3350-3355. Through glossing over these verses, you have completely ignored a conclusive argument against your theory. Look at 3355 in particular. This verse addresses the prophets wives. I don't need to explain to you issues that would arise if MMA means Fiance (let me just hint that, it would mean the Prophet's wives are cheating on him). I look forward to you addressing this point as well as the ones you have not yet addressed.
God willing you will have no doubt after you do this. I certainly have no more doubt.
In any case, I won't address your post until you completely address mine.
Salam Aalmakto
I understand. I didn?t actually gloss over it. I did look at it and saw a problem with it which prevented me from replying. Anyway let me explain in more detail what I mean
- Firstly what do you understand of ?we have made lawful for you? What do you see has been made lawful here? There are 2 ways with this IMO
- Marriage
- Sex
I rule out marriage because the word azwaaj is used in 3350 ?we have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have.......? If they are wives, then surely that means that marriage has already taken place right?
So now let?s look at sex. Again a problem. If the prophet has wives, then surely sex with them is permissible right? So why mention it?
However looking at the rest of the verse, there is an implication that it is actually marriage here that is permissible not sex. Here is the whole verse
O prophet, We have made lawful for you the wives to whom you have already given their dowries, and those who are maintained by your oath, as granted to you by God; and the daughters of the brothers of your father, and the daughters of the sisters of your father, and the daughters of the brothers of your mother, and the daughters of the sisters of your mother - those who emigrated with you. Also, the believing woman who had decreed herself to the prophet, the prophet may marry her if he wishes, as a privilege given only to you and not to the believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses and those who are maintained by their oaths. This is to spare you any hardship. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Ok so looking at whole verse it becomes clear that all these categories of women are not just permissible for sex, but permissible for marriage. I mean would it sound within reason to state that it is lawful for you to have sex with the daughters of the sisters of you mother without any kind of marital ceremony or something?
But this does leave us with a serious problem. Wouldn?t azwaaj whom dowries have been already paid to be classified as married??? Thus why the need for it to state that it is permissible to marry?
Ok moving from this. I think your reference is 3352 no 3355 am i correct? I will comment on 3352
Here?s the verse
No women are lawful to you beyond this, nor that you change them for other wives, even though you may be attracted by their beauty, except what is maintained by your oath. And God is Watcher over all things.I cannot make sense of this. No women are lawful beyond this except the MMA??
I am starting to follow you in saying that MMA is not fianc? or GF but can you still reply to the problem i have mentioned in 3350. I am now very unsure of what MMA is....What other options are there?Oh and this is my reply to you on verses 1671 and 3028.
I?ve looked at the verses more and It does strongly look like it is a rhetorical question in 3028 which in turn would mean that 1671 advises us not to share our provisions with the MMA1671 And God has preferred some of you over others in provision. So it is not for those who have been preferred to relinquish their provision to those who are maintained by their oaths, that they may become equal in it. Would they deny the favor of God?
I can?t disagree with you on this. Thus my argument on MMA would have to answer for this and the only thing that comes to my mind is the understanding that the Quran suggests don?t share provisions with your MMAs until you marry them and that to me currently looks weak.
It does however raise the question of what class of people could this possibly refer to? It?s like God advises us by saying that because He has preferred some of us over others in provision we should not act in such a manner with respect to our MMA that we become equal in it. Yet at the same time sex is clearly permissible with such a class.......what?s the missing link that solves this issue?
Also it should be noted that with regards to 3350 it's looking like that term azwaaj does not mean "wife" as we understand it in english. This could have many new implications which i will post after your reply Aalmakto.
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MMA? No it can mean contracted slave women. You can refer to the hadiths of the prophet, and how they did it. But I understand people here don't like history.
I have not issue with the hadith provided they sound reasonable and don't contradict the Quran.
New Question if you don't mind. Contracted slave women? Would that not be more or less equal to prostitutes of today? It is a contract afterall. -
Salam nimnimak,
Sorry nimnimak I think I am not being clear.3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!
God willing I will try and address your post. But it will take time to do properly.
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Salam nimnimak,
Sorry nimnimak I think I am not being clear.3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!
God willing I will try and address your post. But it will take time to do properly.
Salam Aalmakto
I apologise. I assumed your quote and argument of chapter 33 was the same as what Zubairus quoted before on the thread and Zubairus' argument and quotes were based on verses 3350-52. This line of argument is new to me and it does make the notion of an MMA look.....ridiculus -X
There is one thing though (which won't make too much of a difference) going on islamawakened.com, most of the translations of that verse suggest that 3355 is about the dresscode of the wives of the prophet with respect to whom they can relax this code ie Their fathers and so on. But that would still be problematic if MMA was to be understood as what i have suggested as that would mean that the wives of the prophet (who are already married) can relax their dresscode in front of their boyfriends.....which surely they would not have if they are married to the prophet.
There is however a big problem here. That is 424 which states that the muhsinat are forbiddent to us unless they are MMA. Not to mention the notion of the possibility of sex with the MMA.
The only thing that remains in my mind, is the possibility of the notion of different meanings to the phrase MMA. So like literally taking the meaning of those whom you have contractual rights over and then just applying it to life such that it would encompass doctors, psychiatrists.....girlfirends and so on. But this does look weak.
Only address this post if interests you. I did not mean them to be questions for you to address but i meant them as questions that express my own concerns with the notions of MMA and the possibility that someone may already know something that i may not know. I'l will look more on this topic and post what i find in the thread. I have no idea how long that will take.
Thank you for clarifying.
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I have not issue with the hadith provided they sound reasonable and don't contradict the Quran.
New Question if you don't mind. Contracted slave women? Would that not be more or less equal to prostitutes of today? It is a contract afterall.No not prostitutes. Prostitutes don't do contracts. And I don't think sharing would be allowed either.
There are several cases where poor women would demand such a contract, and who would not be in the catagory of marriageable for the muslim firstly, they'd need to be non-monotheist, secondly they'd either need to be of women whos husbands had lost to the muslims after an act of war perpetrated against muslims, or economic migrants departing from a land, or within one's own land not able to find husbands from their people but rather interested in a muslim.
How's this possible? Quran 2221 gives us a hint. We are to teach those women about islam so that they become believers, monotheists specifically. And then when they believe do we marry them. This solves any problems of not enough muslim women, such as is the case in the middle east where most of the muslimahs demand so much more than the muslims can afford. Of course there is a case of high unemployment there and abouts as well as in many places.
There's also quran 424 which states that marrying women who are already married is forbidden, unless they are slave girl because the point is to protect yourself from secret fornication.
You can refer to the following as well 28.12.29 and so http//www.themodernreligion.com/misc/slave/slavery_verses.htm
It seems that it's okay to use this second option, but the goal is to teach women about islam. Of course many who do marry outsides the folds of islam practically fail islam, but of course that's another matter altogether, which would require the community of muslims to set up some sort of test that two people would be appropriate for others in marriage nikah or contracted slave.
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Peace All,
Can Premarital Sex be of any different from Free Sex? Or are you referring to having sex with a person whom later you plan to marry. I think premarital sex should confine to a couple whom later will tie the knot! I think this topic should not be generalised and put in one basket. It is not only about SEX but much more to it.
Thank you. -
Peace All
I am confused about what the MMA are. Here's a quick round up of why and hopefully a summary for easy viewing by others
235-6 States that the private parts our to be guarded and that the exception to such guarding of the private parts are the azwaaj and MMAs.
424 Implies that the muhsinat women are forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA.There are other verses to quote but these will suffice to make my point clear as to why i can't comprehend MMA being anything other than a fiance or girlfriend.
However we then run to some problems as pointed out by Aalmakto
The ones which put me off the most were
1671 and 3028 These verses imply that the MMA are of a lesser standing than the individual who has an MMA. Which contradicts notions of relationships.
3353-55 This is incredibly weird. The wives of the prophet are told to relax their code in fron of the MMAs whilst being married to the prophet. This again is problematic as surely it's wrong if the wives are exposing themselves to other than the prophet and their family members. So again this contradicts.
There are also other verses that pose problems however i think that these are the strongest of the problematic verses.
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Peace All,
Can Premarital Sex be of any different from Free Sex? Or are you referring to having sex with a person whom later you plan to marry. I think premarital sex should confine to a couple whom later will tie the knot! I think this topic should not be generalised and put in one basket. It is not only about SEX but much more to it.
Thank you.From what i've seen recently, i strongly dislike the idea of taking sex as something casual because that approach appears to me to just not lead to a strong family and lasting relationship and it makes finding a a long term relationship harder with this approach in the culture and lifesyle.
But i am having difficulties understanding whether the west's less strict approach towards sex is the cause of their high divorce rates or just their people with respect to relationships.
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Peace all
I've found more free time lately. It's our study leave and i have already done some revision so i did some more thinking on this topic and here is where i got to
I was going through the occurences of the word azwaaj in the Quran and an idea came to my mind.
Commonly in the case of men and women, the word is translated as husband or wife.
The root of the wordZay-Waw-Jiim = to couple/join/pair/unite/wed, marriage, a pair, a fellow or like, spouse.
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages 432, 433
A problem with translating the word zawj becomes evident when we look at
2230 So if he divorces her again, then she will not be lawful for him until after she has married a different zawjan; if he divorces her; then there is no sin that they come back together if they think they will uphold the boundaries of God. These are the boundaries of God, He clarifies them for a people who know.
The meaning we give to a wife or a husband is what we give after marriage
But from what i see in this verse it is about marrying a zawj so a zawj does not follow from marriage.
Therefore, a zawj according is not necessarily a husband or a wife whilst i do think that it could also mean a husband or a wife. Kind of like a couple or a married couple. Similarly, a zawj or a married zawj. -
Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
I'm not sure one sex being exclusive to marriage, but i'm pretty sure that the current approach of some countries are wrong
This source shows the stats of some countries divorces in 2002
http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east and i think it's largely down to the attitude of the country's society.
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http//www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml
In general, there are more western countries with high divorce rates then east
... Fahad al-Yahya, a psychiatrist who counsels married couples, estimates at least 30 percent of Saudi first marriages end in divorce. The rate is comparable to the United States where, according to the National Center for Health Statistics, 33 percent of first marriages are disrupted either by separation or divorce.
http//findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061210/ai_n16902969/
Saudi Arabia -- second highest divorce rate in the world
In Egypt, 40 percent of marriages end in divorce.
Egypt records sharp rise in divorce rate
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Divorce rates in the West are not that different from divorce rates in some Middle Eastern countries.
That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
http//trueloverevolution.wordpress.com/2009/10/14/malaysia-gives-free-honeymoons-to-lower-divorce-rate/
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That's because in many middle eastern countries, western methods of marriage and relationship is done.
So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
According to the research I've read it's two things - unemployment and adultery.
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So I assume in KSA "Western methods of marriage and relationships" are popular? confused
Seriously, I suggest you do some research about why people divorce. It has nothing to do with promiscuity, bad Western influence, lose morals, or any of that. For a start, I suggest googling Heba Qutb and what she has to say on marriage problems in Egypt. It's interesting.
I thought this thread was about sex before marriage. Sad that it ends up in yet another "the bad immoral West vs. the perfect societies in the East" argument.
nope
Thank you for the info on the divorce rates in Egypt and KSA and Heba Qutb.
The thread is about sex before marriage and from what i have tried to research, it still looks that way to me. The topic of MMAs is a mystery whilst with Quran's usage of zawj (spouse) now it appears to me that they (zawj) don't result from marriages meaning that sex with a zawj is permissible and all the guidelines in the Quran would apply to it. This however would leave open what constitutes a zawj.I'm not really that focused on divorce rates. My dislike is from how sex is seen as casual and acceptable outside of a good relationship. So one night stands, prostitution are things i'm against despite lacking sufficient reason for this. So far my only reason is a weak assumption that sleeping with too many people or having sex casually can in some ways effect your abillity to fulfill the potential you may have for loving someone or being able to maintain faithfulness as perhaps you may find a greater desire to have sex with someone new or you may find your self weaker in controling a desire to remain faithful due to your lack of value for sex when you have been so casual about it.
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Marriage doesn't necessarly protect one from disease and other harms, as adultery is common throughout the world. Even if one party remains faithful, they can still can get disease from their spouse.
However, sex is intended be between two trusting individuals. This is why it's so easy to catch/spread disease when you have sex with random people. I believe our creator specifically wrote the program in this fashion. Without trust--the foundation--you have nothing.