Where is the First Focal Point's place mentioned in the Quran?

seattletruth

Peace all

2143

the large sized word, Quibla, is translated by free minds as Focal Point.

I agree with you; thus, based on your conclusion
The first Focal Point (Qublia) direction was revealed only to Mohamed but It is not important for us to know about, and therefore, it was never a part of Quran. However, the second Qubila, the restricted Masjed, is part of Quran because it is important for us to know.

Peace BelH,

You are making a huge assumption here, you are assuming that the first Qiblah was decreed by God. There is nothing in the Quran to base this conclusion off of. The first Qiblah could have only been based off of traditions, or it could have been decreed by Muhammad without divine inspiration.

The basis for my reasoning is that in 1064 it says that "God does not change His words". Therefor, I don't think the primary direction of the Qiblah was "God's words".

RA786

settletruth...where do you think the Quibla is?
and is it Physical or non physical?

seattletruth

The Qibla just means the direction you face... So it's not a physical place, just a direction which is based on a physical place..

Edip explains the Qibla really well in the footnote for his translation

http//quranix.net/#RTQ37

RA786

so what direction do you face?

ayman

Peace Zubairus,

When we talk of direction as physical, it could be north,south,west,east among others.The possibilities are that a person turns from one of the directions to another or stops facing any of them.

But 2142 clearly tells us that the foolish people ask "what turned them away from the (physical) direction that they were on?"

So the foolish people saw them turning away from a physical direction (since they can see it then it was physical and also the mention of the east and the west makes it clear that it was physical). Had they turned to another physical direction then, as you said, they would have asked "What turned them from one direction to another?"

How possible/logical/reasonable it is that a person turn from a physical direction to non-physical direction?
It really calls for explanation brother wakas.
THINK ABOUT IT.

As I explained the question of the foolish people makes it clear that those who had faith turned away from a physical direction and not "from-to" another physical direction. As for being possible, I did it and I know many others who did it, so it is certainly possible as I can tell you from my own experience. In fact, everyone does it whether they like it or not when they set certain goals in their lives.

As for being logical, what is not logical is people fantacising that they face some buidling or stone cube when it is below the horizon when in fact they are facing outer space due to the curvature of the earth.

As for being reasonable, it is unreasonable to believe that facing a certain physical direction differentiates the hypocrites from the true believers. Hypocrites have no problem doing superficial but meaningless physical tokens of loyalty in the same way that a traitor or a spy has no problem saluting the flag of the country that he is scheming against. Hypocrites thrive on such superficial meaningless acts that only serve to show off. On the other hand true believers set their direction to be on the straight path as clear from 2142. So unless you claim that the straight path is a physical highway leading to some shrine or stone then the true direction that differentiates the hypocrites from those who have faith can't be physical. In fact, the physical direction would be important to the hypocrites and they would cling to it because all they know is the superficial physical showing off. So what differentiates the hypocrites from the believers is that the hypocrites would stay on the physical direction and make a big deal of it, while the believers know that the god is everywhere and they believe in the truth from him and when they set their direction towards it, they will be on the straight path.

Peace,

Ayman

zubairus

Peace ayman

But 2142 clearly tells us that the foolish people ask "what turned them away from the (physical) direction that they were on?"

Take note,what the foolish people question was the act of turning away from a direction and not the act of stop facing a direction/abandoning the act of facing a direction. Furthermore, the mentioning of east and west did not just confirm that they turned from a physical direction but more importantly it was an indication that they turned from one direction to another.

I believe you know very well that the life we live comprises of our state of mind and its physical expression. The straight path ,the message from our merciful lord is a guide for humankind taken this fact into consideration.

When an act of physical is condemned, it is not because it is physical.We cannot eliminate physical act from our life. Your level of submission though best known to our the merciful lord, is attained via your physical expression of life. Yes, intention which is a state of mind is foremost but life is not confined to intention.

Look at these illustration, when you write and post, physical act , you may be out for nothing but fame,infact you may be hypocritical. when you take the message and read in the public, it may be an act of hypocracy, when you abstain from eating that you are fasting, who knows whether or not it is just a hunger strike you embarke on. When you give out of what you have to the needy, it could be out of your intention to enslave them. The examples are endless.

Yes physical act of any type can be impersonated.However,it can not elimated from the life of the righteous ones who have good intention.

So let us first establish whether or not the issue at stake is physical, then we ask of the wisdom behind it .

THINK ABOUT IT.

zubairus

seattletruth

so what direction do you face?

Mecca... where else?

RA786

I think there are many great reasons for a physical place.
If there is a physical place, I think it highlights the "One Ummah One Community" Mindset.
We all Pray towards the same place, we all meet at the same place, we all do Hajj at the same place...etc..we do Jummah at the same time.

I LOVE that!

Unfortunatly that is not reality anymore.
now its... we pray where ever we want in different directions (if we even pray at all)
we do Hajj where ever we want differently...(we we even do hajj at all)
Even though MOST muslims pick Friday for "jumma" (meeting)...most people would rather just pick their own day...(if they even do it at all).
Ramadan....instead of everyone starting and stopping at a similair time...everyone will do ramadan when they feel is correct (if at all) and their own time legnths.

http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/the-broken-chain1.jpg

So, I think that the verese is talking about a Physical Direction, and is good for community/Unity

Alen

Peace all,
Here is the mentioning of the first Focal Point (see verses below); however, I could not find its place of directions in Quran ( as we know the second Focal point is toward the Ristricted Masjed).
The foolish from among the people will say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God are the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
2142
2-143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
Arabic
Original Text
2143
If the place is not mentioned in Quran, then, should we accept that not everything revealed to the prophet are written in the Quran?
This question has been hunting me for a while and I realy want your feedback.
Thanks

Peace,
Respectfully.

396 The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakka, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.

This is the one that i found and i think it's pretty clear. Of course i could be mistaken, will check and may God increase us all in Knowledge.

Peace.

afridi220

settletruth...where do you think the Quibla is?
and is it Physical or non physical?

My Qibla is where God is !

unknownuser

this is it

http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat10_files/10_105.gif

quickduck

this is it

http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat10_files/10_105.gif

+1 RasulHamsa
, this is really it !

zulu12

If only fools face the black cube when they pray, then would the following ayats also be foolish?

2144 We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.

2149 Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.

2150 Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.

Additionally, will it be fair to say that in line with the below ayat and some of the comments on this topic by Ayman regarding the (foolish focal pointers who stare into space when praying), everyone is a fool

2146 They unto whom We have vouchsafed revelation aforetime know it as they know their own children but, behold, some of them knowingly suppress the truth
2147 the truth from thy Sustainer! Be not, then, among the doubters
2148 for, every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another in doing good works. Wherever you may be, God will gather you all unto Himself for, verily, God has the power to will anything.

Peace

Alen

Peace,
Resspectfully.

Have you seen the black cube, zulu? Have you investigated the cube? I mean, have you seen what the cube has on one of its corners? I have. It has a .... hole that i cannot say it nor write it. It will remind you of .... you'll see.

Have you asked why do the people kiss the cube, the golden thing, why do they grab the cloth of the cube?

Peace.

zulu12

Dear Alen

No I have not personally seen the cube as I have not completed my Hajj or Umra as yet. I have seen the article ages ago claiming the cube to be a pagan symbol of fertility, a man made decieving point, borrowed from this religion and that religion etc etc etc.

The reality for me is that it is the Kaabah and I attach no contempt for the Kaabah like some people do and neither do I believe that Jerusalem is the focal point for me. I hold the Kaabah and it's symbolic presence and meaning in high regard and a place which I will visit to complete my pilgrimage.

Whether people kiss the stone or grab the cloth is not my concern, that is their perogative and their issue.

Peace

ayman

Peace Zulu12,

If only fools face the black cube when they pray, then would the following ayats also be foolish?
2144 We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.
2149 Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.
Additionally, will it be fair to say that in line with the below ayat and some of the comments on this topic by Ayman regarding the (foolish focal pointers who stare into space when praying), everyone is a fool
2146 They unto whom We have vouchsafed revelation aforetime know it as they know their own children but, behold, some of them knowingly suppress the truth
2147 the truth from thy Sustainer! Be not, then, among the doubters
2148 for, every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another in doing good works. Wherever you may be, God will gather you all unto Himself for, verily, God has the power to will anything.

Can you please show that they are not fools by underlining the words "black cube" in your translation or the Arabic original?

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Zulu12,

No I have not personally seen the cube as I have not completed my Hajj or Umra as yet. I have seen the article ages ago claiming the cube to be a pagan symbol of fertility, a man made decieving point, borrowed from this religion and that religion etc etc etc.
The reality for me is that it is the Kaabah and I attach no contempt for the Kaabah like some people do and neither do I believe that Jerusalem is the focal point for me. I hold the Kaabah and it's symbolic presence and meaning in high regard and a place which I will visit to complete my pilgrimage.

What is the symbolic meaning of the black cube that you hold in high regard?

Whether people kiss the stone or grab the cloth is not my concern, that is their perogative and their issue.

Is "no concern about idolatry" the meaning of the black cube for you? I am pretty sure that Abraham didn't say the same thing about his people. The reality of your own attitude is proof enough that the black cube is useless.

Peace,

Ayman

ayman

Peace Alen,

Have you seen the black cube, zulu? Have you investigated the cube? I mean, have you seen what the cube has on one of its corners? I have. It has a .... hole that i cannot say it nor write it. It will remind you of .... you'll see.
Have you asked why do the people kiss the cube, the golden thing, why do they grab the cloth of the cube?

The scientific term for it is "newborn crowning", which is the last step in the delivery process before giving birth. Here is an illustration that speaks a thousand words

http//i43.tinypic.com/2s7c7i8.gif

Kissing the head is an ancient Arab tradition to ask for forgiveness. This is why they kiss the head of the newborn idol as it is crowned so that he forgives their sins and they return sinless like a newborn. They spin seven times around their idol as is traditionally done in ancient Subu' birth celebrations. They do it while wearing newborn style wraps to symbolize their return sinless like newborn babies.

Peace,

Ayman

zulu12

Dear Ayman

Firstly, the Kabaah or the Black Cube as you call it is a symbol for all mankind in line with the ayat 597

597 God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.

Whether you translate the word in the sentence as sanctuary, symbol or standard doesn't matter, as it applies to mankind.

Just because you have contempt for the Kabaah and do no believe it to have been built by Abraham, again doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe - and God is near unto the believers.

You can say that the sky is green all day long, and the earth is square, it really doesn't have any bearing on me or what I believe and what I practice.

I firmly believe the Kabaah to have been built by Abraham in line with the following ayat because what do those brainwashed Muslims do? Yes, you got it in one. They walk around it. What else do they do? Mate, you're a genius. Yes, they pray. And how do they pray? Standing, Bowing and Prostrating. Yes, the ritual prayer that you also hold in contempt Man, Einstein has nothing on you.

2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."

2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?

I have no problem being a fool all my life and facing the Kabaah and Masjid Al Haram for my prayers in a (ritualistic) manner looking into space, than being a fool making up all sorts of conclusions and jackanory stories searching for the Truth which in reality is right in my face living in contempt until the day I die.

Peace

unknownuser