Where is the First Focal Point's place mentioned in the Quran?
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The Qibla just means the direction you face... So it's not a physical place, just a direction which is based on a physical place..
Edip explains the Qibla really well in the footnote for his translation
http//quranix.net/#RTQ37
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Peace Zubairus,
When we talk of direction as physical, it could be north,south,west,east among others.The possibilities are that a person turns from one of the directions to another or stops facing any of them.
But 2142 clearly tells us that the foolish people ask "what turned them away from the (physical) direction that they were on?"
So the foolish people saw them turning away from a physical direction (since they can see it then it was physical and also the mention of the east and the west makes it clear that it was physical). Had they turned to another physical direction then, as you said, they would have asked "What turned them from one direction to another?"
How possible/logical/reasonable it is that a person turn from a physical direction to non-physical direction?
It really calls for explanation brother wakas.
THINK ABOUT IT.As I explained the question of the foolish people makes it clear that those who had faith turned away from a physical direction and not "from-to" another physical direction. As for being possible, I did it and I know many others who did it, so it is certainly possible as I can tell you from my own experience. In fact, everyone does it whether they like it or not when they set certain goals in their lives.
As for being logical, what is not logical is people fantacising that they face some buidling or stone cube when it is below the horizon when in fact they are facing outer space due to the curvature of the earth.
As for being reasonable, it is unreasonable to believe that facing a certain physical direction differentiates the hypocrites from the true believers. Hypocrites have no problem doing superficial but meaningless physical tokens of loyalty in the same way that a traitor or a spy has no problem saluting the flag of the country that he is scheming against. Hypocrites thrive on such superficial meaningless acts that only serve to show off. On the other hand true believers set their direction to be on the straight path as clear from 2142. So unless you claim that the straight path is a physical highway leading to some shrine or stone then the true direction that differentiates the hypocrites from those who have faith can't be physical. In fact, the physical direction would be important to the hypocrites and they would cling to it because all they know is the superficial physical showing off. So what differentiates the hypocrites from the believers is that the hypocrites would stay on the physical direction and make a big deal of it, while the believers know that the god is everywhere and they believe in the truth from him and when they set their direction towards it, they will be on the straight path.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace ayman
But 2142 clearly tells us that the foolish people ask "what turned them away from the (physical) direction that they were on?"
Take note,what the foolish people question was the act of turning away from a direction and not the act of stop facing a direction/abandoning the act of facing a direction. Furthermore, the mentioning of east and west did not just confirm that they turned from a physical direction but more importantly it was an indication that they turned from one direction to another.
I believe you know very well that the life we live comprises of our state of mind and its physical expression. The straight path ,the message from our merciful lord is a guide for humankind taken this fact into consideration.
When an act of physical is condemned, it is not because it is physical.We cannot eliminate physical act from our life. Your level of submission though best known to our the merciful lord, is attained via your physical expression of life. Yes, intention which is a state of mind is foremost but life is not confined to intention.
Look at these illustration, when you write and post, physical act , you may be out for nothing but fame,infact you may be hypocritical. when you take the message and read in the public, it may be an act of hypocracy, when you abstain from eating that you are fasting, who knows whether or not it is just a hunger strike you embarke on. When you give out of what you have to the needy, it could be out of your intention to enslave them. The examples are endless.
Yes physical act of any type can be impersonated.However,it can not elimated from the life of the righteous ones who have good intention.
So let us first establish whether or not the issue at stake is physical, then we ask of the wisdom behind it .
THINK ABOUT IT.
zubairus
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so what direction do you face?
Mecca... where else?
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I think there are many great reasons for a physical place.
If there is a physical place, I think it highlights the "One Ummah One Community" Mindset.
We all Pray towards the same place, we all meet at the same place, we all do Hajj at the same place...etc..we do Jummah at the same time.I LOVE that!
Unfortunatly that is not reality anymore.
now its... we pray where ever we want in different directions (if we even pray at all)
we do Hajj where ever we want differently...(we we even do hajj at all)
Even though MOST muslims pick Friday for "jumma" (meeting)...most people would rather just pick their own day...(if they even do it at all).
Ramadan....instead of everyone starting and stopping at a similair time...everyone will do ramadan when they feel is correct (if at all) and their own time legnths.http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/the-broken-chain1.jpg
So, I think that the verese is talking about a Physical Direction, and is good for community/Unity
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Peace all,
Here is the mentioning of the first Focal Point (see verses below); however, I could not find its place of directions in Quran ( as we know the second Focal point is toward the Ristricted Masjed).
The foolish from among the people will say ?What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?? Say ?To God are the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.?
2142
2-143 And as such, We have made you a balanced nation so that you may be witness over the people, and that the messenger may be witness over you. And We did not make the focal point that you became on except to distinguish who follows the messenger from those who will turn on their heels. It was a great thing indeed except for those whom God had guided; God was not to waste your belief. God is Merciful and Compassionate over the people.
Arabic
Original Text
2143
If the place is not mentioned in Quran, then, should we accept that not everything revealed to the prophet are written in the Quran?
This question has been hunting me for a while and I realy want your feedback.
ThanksPeace,
Respectfully.396 The first Sanctuary established for the people is the one in Bakka, blessed, and a guidance for the worlds.
397 In it are clear signs the station of Abraham. And whoever enters it will be secure. And God is owed from the people to make Pilgrimage to the Sanctuary, whoever can make a path to it. And whoever rejects, then God has no need of the worlds.This is the one that i found and i think it's pretty clear. Of course i could be mistaken, will check and may God increase us all in Knowledge.
Peace.
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this is it
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat10_files/10_105.gif
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If only fools face the black cube when they pray, then would the following ayats also be foolish?
2144 We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.
2149 Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.
Additionally, will it be fair to say that in line with the below ayat and some of the comments on this topic by Ayman regarding the (foolish focal pointers who stare into space when praying), everyone is a fool
2146 They unto whom We have vouchsafed revelation aforetime know it as they know their own children but, behold, some of them knowingly suppress the truth
2147 the truth from thy Sustainer! Be not, then, among the doubters
2148 for, every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another in doing good works. Wherever you may be, God will gather you all unto Himself for, verily, God has the power to will anything.Peace
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Peace,
Resspectfully.Have you seen the black cube, zulu? Have you investigated the cube? I mean, have you seen what the cube has on one of its corners? I have. It has a .... hole that i cannot say it nor write it. It will remind you of .... you'll see.
Have you asked why do the people kiss the cube, the golden thing, why do they grab the cloth of the cube?
Peace.
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Dear Alen
No I have not personally seen the cube as I have not completed my Hajj or Umra as yet. I have seen the article ages ago claiming the cube to be a pagan symbol of fertility, a man made decieving point, borrowed from this religion and that religion etc etc etc.
The reality for me is that it is the Kaabah and I attach no contempt for the Kaabah like some people do and neither do I believe that Jerusalem is the focal point for me. I hold the Kaabah and it's symbolic presence and meaning in high regard and a place which I will visit to complete my pilgrimage.
Whether people kiss the stone or grab the cloth is not my concern, that is their perogative and their issue.
Peace
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Peace Zulu12,
If only fools face the black cube when they pray, then would the following ayats also be foolish?
2144 We have seen thee often turn thy face towards heaven and now We shall indeed make thee turn in prayer in a direction which will fulfil thy desire. Turn, then, thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it . And, verily, those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime know well that this comes in truth from their Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what they do.
2149 Thus, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship-for,. behold, this comes in truth from thy Sustainer; and God is not unaware of what you do.
2150 Hence, from wherever thou mayest come forth, turn thy face towards the Inviolable House of Worship; and wherever you all may be, turn your faces towards it, so that people should have no argument against you unless they are bent upon wrongdoing. And hold not them in awe, but stand in awe of Me, and so that I might bestow upon you the full measure of My blessings., and that you might follow the right path.
Additionally, will it be fair to say that in line with the below ayat and some of the comments on this topic by Ayman regarding the (foolish focal pointers who stare into space when praying), everyone is a fool
2146 They unto whom We have vouchsafed revelation aforetime know it as they know their own children but, behold, some of them knowingly suppress the truth
2147 the truth from thy Sustainer! Be not, then, among the doubters
2148 for, every community faces a direction of its own, of which He is the focal point. Vie, therefore, with one another in doing good works. Wherever you may be, God will gather you all unto Himself for, verily, God has the power to will anything.Can you please show that they are not fools by underlining the words "black cube" in your translation or the Arabic original?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Zulu12,
No I have not personally seen the cube as I have not completed my Hajj or Umra as yet. I have seen the article ages ago claiming the cube to be a pagan symbol of fertility, a man made decieving point, borrowed from this religion and that religion etc etc etc.
The reality for me is that it is the Kaabah and I attach no contempt for the Kaabah like some people do and neither do I believe that Jerusalem is the focal point for me. I hold the Kaabah and it's symbolic presence and meaning in high regard and a place which I will visit to complete my pilgrimage.What is the symbolic meaning of the black cube that you hold in high regard?
Whether people kiss the stone or grab the cloth is not my concern, that is their perogative and their issue.
Is "no concern about idolatry" the meaning of the black cube for you? I am pretty sure that Abraham didn't say the same thing about his people. The reality of your own attitude is proof enough that the black cube is useless.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Alen,
Have you seen the black cube, zulu? Have you investigated the cube? I mean, have you seen what the cube has on one of its corners? I have. It has a .... hole that i cannot say it nor write it. It will remind you of .... you'll see.
Have you asked why do the people kiss the cube, the golden thing, why do they grab the cloth of the cube?The scientific term for it is "newborn crowning", which is the last step in the delivery process before giving birth. Here is an illustration that speaks a thousand words
http//i43.tinypic.com/2s7c7i8.gif
Kissing the head is an ancient Arab tradition to ask for forgiveness. This is why they kiss the head of the newborn idol as it is crowned so that he forgives their sins and they return sinless like a newborn. They spin seven times around their idol as is traditionally done in ancient Subu' birth celebrations. They do it while wearing newborn style wraps to symbolize their return sinless like newborn babies.
Peace,
Ayman
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Dear Ayman
Firstly, the Kabaah or the Black Cube as you call it is a symbol for all mankind in line with the ayat 597
597 God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.
Whether you translate the word in the sentence as sanctuary, symbol or standard doesn't matter, as it applies to mankind.
Just because you have contempt for the Kabaah and do no believe it to have been built by Abraham, again doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe - and God is near unto the believers.
You can say that the sky is green all day long, and the earth is square, it really doesn't have any bearing on me or what I believe and what I practice.
I firmly believe the Kabaah to have been built by Abraham in line with the following ayat because what do those brainwashed Muslims do? Yes, you got it in one. They walk around it. What else do they do? Mate, you're a genius. Yes, they pray. And how do they pray? Standing, Bowing and Prostrating. Yes, the ritual prayer that you also hold in contempt Man, Einstein has nothing on you.
2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."
2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?
I have no problem being a fool all my life and facing the Kabaah and Masjid Al Haram for my prayers in a (ritualistic) manner looking into space, than being a fool making up all sorts of conclusions and jackanory stories searching for the Truth which in reality is right in my face living in contempt until the day I die.
Peace
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Dear Ayman
Firstly, the Kabaah or the Black Cube as you call it is a symbol for all mankind in line with the ayat 597
597 God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.
Whether you translate the word in the sentence as sanctuary, symbol or standard doesn't matter, as it applies to mankind.
Just because you have contempt for the Kabaah and do no believe it to have been built by Abraham, again doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe - and God is near unto the believers.
You can say that the sky is green all day long, and the earth is square, it really doesn't have any bearing on me or what I believe and what I practice.
I firmly believe the Kabaah to have been built by Abraham in line with the following ayat because what do those brainwashed Muslims do? Yes, you got it in one. They walk around it. What else do they do? Mate, you're a genius. Yes, they pray. And how do they pray? Standing, Bowing and Prostrating. Yes, the ritual prayer that you also hold in contempt Man, Einstein has nothing on you.
2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."
2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?
I have no problem being a fool all my life and facing the Kabaah and Masjid Al Haram for my prayers in a (ritualistic) manner looking into space, than being a fool making up all sorts of conclusions and jackanory stories searching for the Truth which in reality is right in my face living in contempt until the day I die.
Peace
peace
I remember when first someone told me about Masjid Al Haraam not being a building , i said are you trying to break the Muslims, The Qibla is what is holding them together.
He said , Br. shouldn't we be doing what the quran actualy said rather then what people have taken it to be?
Think about it - i did and i thank that man to this day.
If all people faced Msjid Al Haraam, then we would have a people not breaking any God given laws at all, a society observing others rights to the extreme.
But facing a building doesn't accomplish much!
But if you are doing these things anyway , then facing the building asswell doen't matter at all carry on, but i wouldn't waste my time ever again except may be to please or not to offend others who are close to me.
peace
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Peace Zulu12,
Firstly, the Kabaah or the Black Cube as you call it is a symbol for all mankind in line with the ayat 597
I didn't call it the Black Cube, you did. This is why I asked you to underline where you got the Black Cube from because the Black Cube ( ) is certainly never mentioned in the great reading.
If you understand what "kabaah" means then please translate it. But don't expect us to follow you when you don't understand even the very basic word you are talking about.
597 God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.
Whether you translate the word in the sentence as sanctuary, symbol or standard doesn't matter, as it applies to mankind.So you can translate every word in the passage except the one word that we are discussing. Instead, you have to resort to inventing the term Black Cube ( ), which never occurs in the great reading.
Just because you have contempt for the Kabaah and do no believe it to have been built by Abraham, again doesn't matter to me in the slightest.
368 Behold, the people who have the best claim to Abraham are surely those who follow him - as does this Prophet and all who believe - and God is near unto the believers.As with all idols, I have contempt for the Black Cube, which is certainly not the "kaaba" and it was not built by Abraham. The present Black Cube was built by the Saudis in 1996. You can see how they built it with your own eyes
http//i39.tinypic.com/11t1yz9.jpg
This is reality.
You can say that the sky is green all day long, and the earth is square, it really doesn't have any bearing on me or what I believe and what I practice.
I firmly believe the Kabaah to have been built by Abraham in line with the following ayat because what do those brainwashed Muslims do? Yes, you got it in one. They walk around it. What else do they do? Mate, you're a genius. Yes, they pray. And how do they pray? Standing, Bowing and Prostrating. Yes, the ritual prayer that you also hold in contempt Man, Einstein has nothing on you.
2125 AND LO! We made the Temple a goal to which people might repair again and again, and a sanctuary take then, the place whereon Abraham once stood as your place of prayer." And thus did We command Abraham and Ishmael "Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will abide near it in meditation, and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves ."
2226 For, when We assigned unto Abraham the site of this Temple, ?Do not ascribe divinity to aught beside Me!? and ?Purify My Temple for those who will walk around it, and those who will stand before it , and those who will bow down and prostrate themselves .?
I have no problem being a fool all my life and facing the Kabaah and Masjid Al Haram for my prayers in a (ritualistic) manner looking into space, than being a fool making up all sorts of conclusions and jackanory stories searching for the Truth which in reality is right in my face living in contempt until the day I die.You can fantasize all day long that the Black Cube is the "kaaba" that was built by Abraham, this will not change reality.
It is not surprising that you have no problem with the filthy idols and idolatry going on around the Black Cube since you ignore even the translation that you provided. You don't really care about what the passages say. If not, please tell us how do you purify this "Temple" of yours.
Peace,
Ayman
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Dear Ayman
I think you seem to be getting ahead of yourself.
Firstly, please accept my apology for the black cube statement. I thought you had used this term in your previous post, but you had in fact used the term (the cube). I did not translate the ayat and come up with the back cube translation. This was just a misunderstanding.
Secondly, I do not ask anyone to follow me. I merely pointed out that in line with your logic, everyone who uses a focal point i.e. to face Kabaah, is foolish and then quoted the ayat where Allah SWT states that every community has been given a focal point, therefore everyone must be a fool according to you.
Thirdly, it was not the Saudis that built the Kabaah. They were the last ones to rebuild/repair it's structure. This has been ongoing since Abraham built it. The Prophet PBUH was involved when the Quraish did it, it happened during the time of Abdullah Ibn az Zubair, Malik bin Marwan and Sultan Murad Khan. Do you also hold these people in contempt including the Prophet PBUH? or was he also an idol worshiper like the Saudis and the majority of brainwashed sectarian Muslims who walk around it and pray within it's vicinity by standing, bowing and prostrating? I suppose you also have problems with any form of maintenance work of symbolic structures. Anyway, that's your problem and you will have to deal with it.
Because you clearly you do not believe in a focal point, prayer is out the question, hajj is also out to Mecca, zakat and sadaqa means running the tractor in the fields and fasting means eating, drinking, sexual relationships with the partner and non remembrance of Allah SWT during the prescribed period in the day from sunrise to sunset and the 4 sacred months become 8.
This is the problem my friend. Every Tom, Dick and Harry at PM becomes an expert on who, what, where and when, but in reality it is nothing but when, where, what and who. No unity/consensus. Everyone comes up with anything they like, whenever they like, however they like, claiming to be right.
The only thing missing at PM is asking someone to translate (.) Yes, translate the fullstop. What does it actually mean in Quranic Arabic and when was it revealed? When did it become corrupt and hijacked by the Saudis and the masses were brainwashed to commit idolatry on the fullstop. Even then you will get hundreds of opinions backed up with God knows what, claiming it to be Divine but only to be understood by the chosen few who can see with their 3rd eye which is placed in the outer realms of open minds banishing actions which do not conform to blah blah blah!
Peace