Taking off the Hijab
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You know, I love how this guy does all the work for us. Argue enough and he's sure to expose his insolence.
Yup. And he perfectly illustrates the particular mindset that was mentioned before and in the articles. http//www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/froehlich/d030.gif
Do I have first hand experience of harassment? Of course I do.
Then please share your experiences.
Do you know what it feels like to be leered at and talked to every time you leave your house?
Do you know what it feels like to never be able to walk in a relaxed manner and let your thoughts wander, because you constantly have to be aware of the men around you, because they will throw obscenitites at you, follow you around, or grope you.
Do you know what it feels like to be completely exhausted at the end of the day, not feeling able to just go to the store around the corner because you can't take any more remarks / stares / other forms of harassment?
Harassment occurs in every country of the world regardless of religion,
But to extremely varying degrees. And that was the point.
In my European country of origin I can go out on the street in whatever attire I wish, and, yes, I do wear tank tops and shortish skirts in summer. Yet I have never, ever experienced the kind of obtrusive and ubiquitous harassment that is an everyday occurance in Egypt.
Every female that observes 'hijab' in my family experiences less sexual harassment then if they were to go out without. And this has been proven time and time again. The 'hijab' for them is part of their identity and way of life. They are recognized as Muslims from afar. They are lawyers, doctors and CEO's in their respective rights and feel comfortable, happy and choose to observe 'hijab'. Not some oppressed illiterate downtrodden females forced to cover up by family or peers as you may wish to think.
Well, good for them. However, I don't really see what this has to do with the subject.
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You know, I love how this guy does all the work for us. Argue enough and he's sure to expose his insolence. Thank you, yet again you have proved me right
whatever . you don't want hijab, fine take it off >> why do you ask people ? I think if you don't believe in it, don't do it, is that too hard for you because verses are clear , take it or leave it .
one more thing I don't care of any opinion or description that might any person here attributes it to me.
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whatever . you don't want hijab, fine take it off >> why do you ask people ?
Because this is not an easy matter for some women. As you would know if you had read and understood the first pages of this thread.
If you don't have anything constructive or a beneficial experience to add to an issue that obviously is none of your concern or business anyway, why don't you just stay out of the discussion? Really ... silly remarks like "well, fine, take it off, why do you ask" are of no use.
nope
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whatever . you don't want hijab, fine take it off >> why do you ask people ? I think if you don't believe in it, don't do it, is that too hard for you because verses are clear , take it or leave it .
What are you even on about? Please read the Original Post. I have every right to ask people to share their experiences on a PUBLIC FORUM. If you don't like it, you can go somewhere else. I can ask whatever I want within the rules of the forum and according to the Mods, this is a perfectly valid thread. I don't need you or anyone else for that matter telling me what I should and should not post. I can ask people for their experiences, it isn't a crime. Again, read the original post.
Oh and to your verses are clear part? Really? Why in 300+ posts have we still not found the verse in question? Perhaps because it does not exist )
Please just admit, no verse in the Quran instructs the woman to cover the hair on the head directly. Either you admit or you don't but it won't change the content of the book of Allah (swt) )
Because this is not an easy matter for some women. As you would know if you had read and understood the first pages of this thread.
Quite.
one more thing I don't care of any opinion or description that might any person here attributes it to me.
You said it yourself and your statement spoke for itself. I just chose to point it out for those who might have missed it. You gave a perfect example of the mentality we have been discussing so thanks )
Peace
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Because this is not an easy matter for some women. As you would know if you had read and understood the first pages of this thread.
If you don't have anything constructive or a beneficial experience to add to an issue that obviously is none of your concern or business anyway, why don't you just stay out of the discussion? Really ... silly remarks like "well, fine, take it off, why do you ask" are of no use.
nopeaha I stay out of the discussion, why do you defend a member when I saidd to him stay out of discussion ? it is valid for you and not for me, well I'll not stay out . this is called hypocrite.
and for the thread >>>>the verses of wearing Hijab is clear and understood very well, but I think you want something that goes with your desires .
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and for the thread >>>>the verses of wearing Hijab is clear and understood very well, but I think you want something that goes with your desires .
Isn't it ironic how we're said to be following our own desires when you cannot bring the verse, you can only bring an 'understanding'. Is it us going with our desires or is it people pretending?
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Dear Leyna
The majority of men are thinking about groping or following you around whenever or wherever you go out. This is the reality. Accept it. Whether it's Egypt or Europe is besides the point. What I'm showing you is that comparing everything to Egypt and blaming the 'Hijab' and kissing Europe's ass is b@@@@@@t.
Women in my circles observe 'hijab' utilsing the Quran, just like you and your circle do not observe 'hijab' utilising the Quran in your defense.
And as far as your last comment is concerned (Well, good for them. However, I don't really see what this has to do with the subject.) , once again I am showing you that they choose not to take off the 'hijab' and observe it, but are in much more powerful positions than most of you here and has everything to do with the subject at hand.
The subject that you should be questioning and it's relevance is Egypt.
Peace
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Oh and to your verses are clear part? Really? Why in 300+ posts have we still not found the verse in question? Perhaps because it does not exist )
why? its' because of you , you don't want to understand neither in your hand to understand .
Please just admit, no verse in the Quran instructs the woman to cover the hair on the head directly. Either you admit or you don't but it won't change the content of the book of Allah (swt) )
Hahahaha, this wasn't a surprise for me, I know you want things go with what you want and what your desires want.
the verses are talking about Hijab, deal with it as soon as possible or you'll die choking yourself by it.
You said it yourself and your statement spoke for itself. I just chose to point it out for those who might have missed it. You gave a perfect example of the mentality we have been discussing so thanks )
Peaceoh, yeah right >>> what about your mentality ? praying without hijab, going oustide without hijab, a free christian woman, this is your mentality , it is not Islam.
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aha I stay out of the discussion, why do you defend a member when I saidd to him stay out of discussion ? it is valid for you and not for me, well I'll not stay out . this is called hypocrite.
Stop being childish and pretending you don't understand.
Even in case you did not realize what this thread is about, it has been pointed out to you. The sister was asking for input, experiences, advice about taking off hijab.
She was NOT asking whether it was an obligation or not, and she didn't ask to have advice that covering is an obligation having shoved down her throat.
Jeeez ... the net is full of discussion forums, pamphlets, propaganda texts praising the hijab and trying to convince us that we have to wear it or we'll end up in hellfire. Believe me, there isn't a single argument you can bring that most of us haven't heard and debated dozens of times.
So why do some guys feel the need they have to distract from the discussion and insist on proving that a headscarf is an obligation? Even when it has been repeatedly pointed out to them that this is not what this thread is about.
http//img337.imageshack.us/img337/3135/iconconfused.gif
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why? its' because of you , you don't want to understand neither in your hand to understand .
Hahahaha, this wasn't a surprise for me, I know you want things go with what you want and what your desires want.
With proof and rational evidences, I understand perfectly. Until you provide this I will never compute. My mind does not work on what you tell me is true if there is no evidence as back-up. Bring me evidence and I will agree, talk hot air and I will never agree.
Hahahaha, this wasn't a surprise for me, I know you want things go with what you want and what your desires want.
So bring the proof I am asking for then. I see it's only funny because you can't answer a simple simple question. http//www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-ridicule.html
the verses are talking about Hijab, deal with it as soon as possible or you'll die choking yourself by it.
oh, yeah right >>> what about your mentality ? praying without hijab, going oustide without hijab, a free christian woman, this is your mentality , it is not Islam.
Yes the verses are talking about covering, this is true. Covering the bosoms, but bosom is not equal to hair, I'm sure you'll agree with me.
For the record, I do wear a headscarf, I do pray with a head-scarf, not that I really care what your personal Islam is or your approval. My opinion however is that, it is NOT obligatory as you are claiming and it is NOT in the Quran as you are claiming.
What Christian women have got to do with this discussion I do not know.
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Isn't it ironic how we're said to be following our own desires when you cannot bring the verse, you can only bring an 'understanding'. Is it us going with our desires or is it people pretending?
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Plenty of Hijabi's/Niqabi's what have you in the public bus I would take back home from school, didn't stop the men from fondling whatever they could. A male reporter in Karachi once wore the full ensemble (covering his head and face etc but with nail polish on his toes heh!) and decided to take a trek through the busy parts of town, needless to say, he didn't appreciate being "handled" by males and apparently he was "handled" quite a lot. I have plenty of horror stories, personal as well as those of my friends, family/relatives, in the news, people we know but we just brush it off because that's the way it is there. In certain areas of the world, doesn't matter what you wear, if there is any semblance of a shape resembling something female...there's bound to be sexual frustration that comes out in the form of harassment. It depends on different backgrounds how it plays out but there you have it. In places like Athens you could get away with wearing a T-shirt and capri's and no one would bat an eye or harass you because of it, but those with their butt cheeks hanging out would probably get a twice over, if they were nice that is. In Karachi then again, you could be fully covered but that wouldn't stop 'em from trying their luck or taking it further.
It is a fact that women are sexually harassed far more than males, most times with vapid justifications of she wasn't in a sack thus we wanted to get her in the sack, she deserves it she does, the floozy. In reality, if we were to mind our own business none of this would be a problem but it is in reality a big problem. All this insistence on covering up etc is an aspect of a control mechanic which has some deep psychological implications. The whole women are jewels and diamonds like Leyna pointed out, the delicate flower thing, don't go out it's a bad bad world = cede control to those capable. This way women become more like chattel/property/trophies etc and less of people in their own right which is what has happened in the past so many times. Men are far more likely to take the physical route when they want something sexual and that's why male harassment is such a big issue as opposed to female, that too is a fact. Take any statistics you want.
This is an interesting argument, but the bottom line is, play it safe where the surroundings are more likely to get you into trouble and relax it where they likely won't. This won't stop all occurrences but it will go towards defusing a situation instead of provoking a situation. Now, does that mean hijab/niqab/women's hair are satan's tentacles? Of course not, this means a dress code that's up to the person in question and suited to the environment. This is the bone of contention; on one hand insistence that there is only one way to do it and on the other hand, there are multiple ways of achieving the same result. End of discussion. But obviously not, because then those wanting to prove their position dig up "certain" verses which have been argued here many times with a clear outcome imo, read Wakas' link.
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The majority of men are thinking about groping or following you around whenever or wherever you go out. This is the reality. Accept it. Whether it's Egypt or Europe is besides the point.
It is not beside the point. As I stated, harassment is the norm in Egypt, it is a very rare exception where I come from, and it would not be publicly acceptable. If a guy groped me on the street and I started yelling at him, people would rush to help. In Egypt, people rarely interfere when a woman gets harassed. They just look and sneer, or look away.
It's not about glorifying or condeming a particular country or society either. But the point is --, and that has also been observed by many other women who have been to several Muslim countries -- that the covering of women often goes along with a particular social perception ... namely, that men are not able to restrain themselves and that it is women's responsibility to keep up morals by making themselves as invisible and unattractive as possible.
What happens then is for example what we can observe in Egypt Men feel they have the right to harass women, much more so the less those women are covered. As a result, many women cover up more in order to avoid harassment, but it's like a vicious circle, it only gets worse.
So in a way the whole women have to cover ideology leads to harassment. THAT is the point. And that's why I brought the issue up. Not in order to bash Egypt or praise Europe, but to make a particular point that hijab supporters often deny. Which has just been proven in this discussion
once again I am showing you that they choose not to take off the 'hijab' and observe it, but are in much more powerful positions than most of you here and has everything to do with the subject at hand.
I still don't get the point. I know lots of women in powerful positions or good carreers who wear a headscarf. But I fail to see what this has to do with the subject.
As for "more powerful positions than most of you here" ... do you know what everyone on here is doing carreer-wise, or how do you know?
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Hi HNF,
I thought id share my experience with you)
When i converted i began wearing a headscarf........I enjoyed the security I felt it gave me. I stopped wearing the scarf however as I learned more and bacame more involved with Islam .....it seems that when i converted I assumed it was obligatory but as i read the Quran for myself I decided i didnt need to (sorry for swaying into the obligatory or not issue, I just thought id explain why I stopped)
anyhow..my experience has been that those who are my friends havent really commented ...my husband again is not bothered either way (he isnt a muslim) .....so my advice is just do what feels best for you and what you feel is in line with what you believe not what others try to force on you.
)
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Hi HNF,
I thought id share my experience with you
When i converted i began wearing a headscarf........I enjoyed the security I felt it gave me. I stopped wearing the scarf however as I learned more and bacame more involved with Islam .....it seems that when i converted I assumed it was obligatory but as i read the Quran for myself I decided i didnt need to (sorry for swaying into the obligatory or not issue, I just thought id explain why I stopped)
anyhow..my experience has been that those who are my friends havent really commented ...my husband again is not bothered either way (he isnt a muslim) .....so my advice is just do what feels best for you and what you feel is in line with what you believe not what others try to force on you.
Thanks for sharing your experience Imaani1
I'm grateful.I agree, I shouldn't let others force me but in reality, I live in a holier than thou community and honestly, I haven't got the energy to deal with it as of now or the strength. In fact, I told one of my friends about my feelings and she texted me this long thing and said that Satan paints red paint on the heads of women without a headscarf to be his wife on the day of judgement.
@Thereformer1,
http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm@savage_carrot, Great argument. I do partly agree with the whole when in rome... bit. I think though, pepper spray should become readily available for all Egyptian women
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Dear Leyna
I find the Egypt scenario hard to believe, but I have never been to Egypt, so I really cannot comment. We have lived in the UAE which is an Islamic country and never once have I seen a female being groped in public or publicly humiliated who was observing 'hijab'. To the contrary, they treat the females from my household with a lot of respect and even more respect after knowing that we were from Europe and observing 'hijab'.
The females in my family are all self employed in their respective fields with some running large corporations and do not have to report to anyone, thus are very secure in all aspects of their life. What I'm saying is that the observance of 'hijab' has not hindered their goals, success or targets and neither did they feel a need to take it off even after the tensions after 9/11 across the globe. So for them, they have self empowered themselves out of choice which they decided to act upon and not worry about what people might say. They practice the deen for themselves and not for anybody else and are proud to observe the 'hijab' and are not being conned or forced into observing 'hijab'
Peace
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Leyna you'll like this hahahahah .
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_cyGoZwRDQ
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Satan paints red paint on the heads of women without a headscarf to be his wife on the day of judgement.
im shocked that your friend sent you this!......youre right you dont need the hassle no one does so just take it in your stride at your own pace.......satans wife pah ) brickwall I wouldnt pay any attention to sayings such as this)
I think your brave to consider doing anything which will be seen as departing from the norm when living in such a community bravo and i believe god will show you the right thing to do pr
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What I'm saying is that the observance of 'hijab' has not hindered their goals, success or targets and neither did they feel a need to take it off even after the tensions after 9/11 across the globe. So for them, they have self empowered themselves out of choice which they decided to act upon and not worry about what people might say. They practice the deen for themselves and not for anybody else and are proud to observe the 'hijab' and are not being conned or forced into observing 'hijab'
I still do not understand what this has to do with the discussion at hand. Nobody here has said that women who wear hijab can not be successful, empowered etc.
This thread is about women who made a choice and want to act on it and not worry what people might say. They practice their deen for themselves and not for anybody else and are proud as they are. How come you are very vocal when it comes to women defending the right to wear what they please as long as it includes hijab, but keep nagging at them if they decide it doesn't.
???