What is الفاحشة "Fahisha" ?
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Aurangzeb, cool your mind, it is disturbed and is totally in confused state, even not noticing that your statements are self contradictory. Just state what is the concept of "Zina" in your mind; and what is the concept of "Shirk", in your or in the opinion of your Dr. Sahib.
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Moreover, Zina and Shirk have been declared equivalents. Read carefully the Ayat 24/3
The traditional Jewish translation
?The Zani does not marry except with Zania or Mushrikah, and the Zaniah, no one marries her except Zani or Mushrik??.?
The following questions arise- Is that Statement true or false? It is false, as we see that even the most corrupt man won?t marry an adultress. The most corrupt man would like his wife to be chaste and faithful to him.
- What is the common value between a Zani and a Mushrik? Think very deeply. There is no common value between a Zani and a Mushrik. Zina, with your meaning, is a physical act corresponding to your frame of mind, your desire and your lust. Shirk relates with your faith, conviction, belief, etc.
- Is a Zani always a Mushrik? No.
- Is a Mushrik always a Zani? No.
- A man or a woman can be a non Mushrik and can still be a Zani.
- On the other hand, a Mushrik can easily be a non-Zani.
God bless you.
24/3. The adulterer-fornicator marries not but an adulteress-fornicatress or a Mushrikah, and the adulteress-fornicatress none marries her except an adulterer-fornicator or a Muskrik . Such a thing is forbidden to the believers (of Isl?mic Monotheism).
so the reason that the Zani is equivalent to a Mushrik is because both of them not fear God and they both of them comit a guilt or a sin . so by definition they are equals and God knows.
Arabic interpretation
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Just how do you explain 241-10 using your interpretation? I don't see how that can refer to anything but adultery.
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Mazhar, Reformer and others,
Still no response against or rebuttal to my arguments. Still intent on hollow verbal confrontation. Asking me to cool down. But still furious and explosive on an intellectual difference of opinion. Leave Quran alone. As I said, you people are "Quranic rogues". A curse on Quranic community.
You are sick brothers. And I beg protection of Almighty from sicknesses of this kind.
God bless you all.
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http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat3_files/3_135.gif
And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults -- and who forgives the faults but Allah, and (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done.http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat4_files/4_15.gif
And as for those who commit an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them. -
For Mazhar and other brothers/sisters
QUOTE FROM MY LAST POST
?consented illicit". Is a blatant violation of God?s words, WHO only said ZINA and no suggestion or implication is there for ?consented illicit Zina?. You have no right to adulterate Quranic text with your wishful thinking, be it to justify a fabricated meaning.
(NO answer given)Conjecture mongers very rapidly become blind of eyes and heart. Zina means consented illicit intercourse only. Read answer was in reply;
Can a man and women indulge in sexual intercourse to be considered as Zina without there being desire and consent? Qur'aan says "do not go near Zina". What does "near" mean? The nearness is only the result of desire and consent.
If somebody takes an oath from a lady that she will not commit Zina what does that imply? Only that she will not do it by desire and consent otherwise a women can be abused for intercourse by force and coercion.
Rape is NOT Zina, since consent i.e. desire for nearness to sexual intercourse is not there for one party. In rape also the effect will be the same as is in the case of consented illicit sexual intercourse, but in rape punishment can be extended by the state to capital punishment, but not in case of Zina. Some stupid coined the term Zina bil jaber. Once force is applied, by either party, it is not Zina.
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Rape is NOT Zina, since consent i.e. desire for nearness to sexual intercourse is not there for one party. In rape also the effect will be the same as is in the case of consented illicit sexual intercourse, but in rape punishment can be extended by the state to capital punishment, but not in case of Zina. Some stupid coined the term Zina bil jaber. Once force is applied, by either party, it is not Zina.I have already put a question Where is the differentiation between ZINA and RAPE?
Where is RAPE mentioned as against ZINA? What is the punishment for RAPE in Quran, while punishment for "ZINA" is clearly mentioned?Do we have to go after the "edict" of a Quranic Mulla here? What authority has he to prescribe "capital punishment" for a "sin" that is not even mentioned in Quran?
Nothing but the same hollow verbal acrobatics!! A tunnel vision! Harsh and indecent words. A violent Quranic Mulla, eh? -
Dear friends,
"TO DISTORT THE IDEOLOGY". Al-Zani is the one who "distorts, changes, twists, alters shape, bends, forces a change into" the divine ideology. Al-Zania can be a female, or a group, community, gang (Jama'at), as any Jama'at in Arabic is a "feminine" and has a 't' of 'tanees' in the end.
I would very much like to read friends' opinions.
God bless you.
salaam brother, where can I find more about that interesting understanding, perhaps you can provide any reference from quran or any classical dictionary to back up this. thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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I have already put a question Where is the differentiation between ZINA and RAPE?
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.32.gif
And you people do not approach nearing the mutually consented sexual intercourse;Here it is not said that "do not perform Zina", but since it will factually take place only when man and woman are motivated from within and they willingly with heartfelt desire approach it. In case of rape one of the two parties neither has the desire nor he or she approaches for nearness/its performance. Rape is done by one person upon another person, a man raping a woman, or a woman raping a man, with or without the help of others.
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Peace all,
I think we can all be well mannered to each other without arguing about peoples personalities or character.
I have some questions for aurangzaib
You said Zina Bil Jabr and Zina bil Raza. Both kinds of acts of Zina are being committed in our daily lives. There should also have been two different punishments for them respectively. There are none.
Please explain the terms, bil jabr by force? and bil raza? Im assuming you mean ridha, or consent?
To be honest I am not sure about the differentiation or even if there is. If an act was forced upon you why would the victim be punished? And it would depend on many things. e.g. someone could say I didnt really want it but I did it anyway I wouldnt consider it as jabr.
Punishment for alzani is the lashes. If it's forced upon such as rape, the victim isnt the zani but the oppressor would be?? Wouldnt that make sense because its by force? Is rape just zina or is it more than that? inheriting women against their will is a fahisha 419 though is this exclusive to wives or would it include all women? Anyway Im not sure about this matter.
I agree that a zani and a mushrik have equivalents, as the zani takes up their desire over God though once they stop repent and amend ways it would be different. that does not necessarily mean distort the quranic ideology I believe zina is in relation to fornication/adultery
New meanings could be found but everything needs verification. Have you any examples of distortion of quranic ideology?
Also why do you call it traditional jewish tradition?
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rape and AQ
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598245.msg204213#msg204213interesting thoughts..
aurangzaib what do you think of it? the verse 3358 talks about those who harm the believers, it's an ithm and buhtanan.. then later 3360 they should be banish or (3361) killed. So if a person rapes.. that's a clear harm, makes sense to me.
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All reflections of friends are interesting for me and I hold them in high esteem. The topic deals with basic convictions and cannot easily reach its target without a lot of discussion and debate.
Right now, I reproduce my post to Sarah here, as I believe it did not go through to her due to some error in the link that was supposed to be addressed by me.
Sorry Sarah, this reply had to reach you that's why I take the liberty to reprint it here. Please feel free all, to deliberate and reflect. Of course without adopting the extremist Mulla's role. I respect you all.Salaams to you Sarah,
No need at all to be sorry. We all make mistakes of this minute nature. I make bigger ones.
Your Quote
Well everyone is accountable for their own behaviour the harassing attitudes aren?t nice or acceptable. I guess people get emotional about what they believe in. and as an individual you can shine by showing a greater example and being the better one.The only point of worry is that these Freeminders claim to be Quranists. What attitude and what manners of Quranists they are showing to the new entrants in their Blog, and to the world?
Your Quote
People?s ridicule happens everywhere unfortunately not just on the free-minds.There are many many webs and blogs where decency prevails. And they are not only Muslim Blogs, but Christian Blogs too. www.aastana.com is one of them. Again, at least, Quranists never have to be sharp of tongues, abusive and insulting, as it is totally against the tenets of Quran.
There are scholars at www.aastana.com whose mission is to complete the great task of exploration and discovery of genuine Quranic interpretations. This task was started around 150 years ago, with the worldwide "Back to Quran" movement. They are trying to clean up the element of myth, miracles, dogmas, irrationalities and rituals of worship. They believe that Quran is dealing with values and ideals which, when put into practice by a state machinery, affords absolute PEACE to the humanity, and a life free from fear, want, exploitation, tyranny and hunger. Quran is a Constitution for Humanity that must be enforced by a Quranic Elite in order to be effective. For this purpose it requires a massive political movement.
Nobody is required to agree with them. People get furious at them. They reply with Quranic and linguistic argumentation. No sharp words or filthy language is ever used. The message is spreading fast.
Yes, Ashaab al-Feel, means, according to lexicons, the pompous ones, the ones who have high claims, who speak loudly and boast, but are in reality fools. Feel means to make loud and pompous claims. The myth of "an army of elephants" travelling in the desert and mountains, all the way from Yemen to Macca, and the other myth of swarms of small birds, holding stones in their beaks, etc. etc. have been authentically eliminated. And you must have noted rationality and logic brought in, without violating any linguistic rules.
Now you can present this translation before this scientifically advanced, logical and intellectual world. And they will not laugh at you. And that alone is not the sole purpose. It is believed with reason that before Jews infiltrated and corrupted the meanings, Quran was understood in this very purely rational way.It was the Banu Umayyad and Banu Abbas tyrants who, with their vested interests, had managed to do away with the genuine interpretations of the great Quran. For their ulterior motives, they had employed and sponsored the Jewish scholars. They could not go along with the Quranic tenets with their autocratic dynastic rule. So they transformed its constitution radically.
Another translation is introduced to you in keeping with the most recent research
SURA 111
- All powers (Yadaa) of instigator of the fire of enmity (Abi lahabin) have been smashed (tabbat) and perished is he (tab).
2, Of no avail to him was his wealth and domain. - To burn (naaran) in the fire of hatred (zaat-a-lahabin) will be his disastrous fate (sa yasla).
- And his false pride/honor (Imra?atuhu) responsible (Hammaalah) for inciting the hatred (al-hatab),
- would stand tied to a strong rope (hablum mim masad) around its high neck (jeedihaa).(would stand humiliated)
Running translation
?All powers of the instigator (of the fire) of enmity have been smashed and he is destroyed. Of no avail to him was his wealth and domain. To burn in the fire of hatred will be his disastrous fate. And his false pride/honor responsible for inciting hatred would stand tied to a strong rope (a yoke) around its high neck (simply meaning that he is doomed to stand humiliated).?
Quran does not deal with personalities (except His Rasools) or places. So there was no particular person called "Abu Lahab" that was targeted in this Sura. On the contrary, the Sura targets the general frame of mind of the enemies of God, His messenger and His Guidance.
Dr. Qamar Zaman is the prominent scholar who is bearing the great responsibility of discovering the genuine interpretation of Quran out of the debris and rubble of great Jewish counter revolution against Islam. He can be contacted through his website and blog, www.aastana.com.
Of course, you are absolutely free to form your opinion. We would always respect you.
God bless you.
- All powers (Yadaa) of instigator of the fire of enmity (Abi lahabin) have been smashed (tabbat) and perished is he (tab).
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?If this is what Dr. Qamar is, he seems to have entered into the shoes of GA Pervez.?That was a mis-statement of the century. Both the gentlemen are oceans apart in their level of intellect and evolution.
All Pervaizis hate Dr. Qamar Zaman, just as you do, only because all of them are stuck in time, in the year 1985, the year the great man closed his eyes in eternal peace. They are on sleeping pills. No movement. No research or investigation. No quest or pursuit of knowledge. Pervaiz was the last word for them. I respect the gentleman. Was my first teacher in Quranic studies. He never asked people to freeze their minds. He hated conformism and persistently advised against it.
You are a label paster and a foulmouth, friend. A Quranic Mulla, suffering from self delusion. All you need is a running brook of thought, not your present stagnant and dead pond of smelly water. Your ugly demeanour has precluded any more logical or rational discussion. A Quranic research, when introduced for discussion, is a ?scum? for you.
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You are a label paster and a foulmouth, friend. A Quranic Mulla, suffering from self delusion. All you need is a running brook of thought, not your present stagnant and dead pond of smelly water. Your ugly demeanour has precluded any more logical or rational discussion. A Quranic research, when introduced for discussion, is a ?scum? for you.
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http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/017.%20Al%20Israa/17.32.gif
And you people do not approach nearing the mutually consented sexual intercourse;Here it is not said that "do not perform Zina", but since it will factually take place only when man and woman are motivated from within and they willingly with heartfelt desire approach it. In case of rape one of the two parties neither has the desire nor he or she approaches for nearness/its performance. Rape is done by one person upon another person, a man raping a woman, or a woman raping a man, with or without the help of others.
Answer this with sensible mind, not irritated and disturbed having mirrored the inner dirty self.
