The virginity industry
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Well, it is a fact that a certain percentage of women does not bleed at all, but sadly many people are not aware of this.
yeh can you imagine people with traditional/cultural mindset they'd think shes unchaste S
No, this post was for sarah, she said that sex before marriage is from past .
No, don't worry we are going to learn how to detect the difference .
you missed my point, a person's past is between them and God, of course they should get the consequence of their actions. Though they shouldn't have to result into doing surgery or whatever. No one is perfect and if men or women expect perfection then they're in for disappointment. she or he should be open enough to say they were in a relationship before if they can't trust a person to respect and look over their past then how can they wish to continue a relationship? i don't know but if it makes them happy that their significant other is happy with some ideology while holding a lie.. good luck to them.
A person is what they are today and now, not yesterday and before. people change, past is past. i'm not advocating sex before marriage.
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Are you saying that sex before marriage is from past and we shouldn't punish her ? It is Zania in religion the punishment is lashing her and traditions will not lashe her but it will make her suffer by no one accepts her .
And by the way men are now aware of the plastic surgery of the hymens of in the organs of women and they know the difference . as the proverb says
Whoever calls a woman a "Zania" and does not produce four eye witnesses, he is condemned for ever as a LIAR.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/03.92-65.gif
And when such people committed an illicit sexual act, for the first time, or wronged their selves, they recalled/remembered Allah and for this reason sought pardon for their respective sins; since/and who is there who could forgive sins except Allah. And they do not tie themselves/make it habit/repetitive action with what illicit sexual act they had done; and they know
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/003.%20Aale%20Imran/temp09%203.136a.gif
They are the people whose recompense/reward from their Sustainer Lord is forgivenessChapter3
Non presence of "hymen" is not necessarily because of being non-virgin. Many factors and reasons are there for its absence.
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yeh can you imagine people with traditional/cultural mindset they'd think shes unchaste S
I guess that happens quite often. nope
Obviously, the only solution is education, paricularly a proper sex education. But how to go about that in societies where many people are illiterate, or conservatives are trying hard to discourage it?
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education would be the number one solution.. maybe it's up to people to discuss things with prominent figures? like the sheikh for example and they can spread the knowledge around.. i couldn't imagine having conversations about such matters with my parents lol they might think wrong S
schools here send home permission notes if it's ok for their children to get sex education. i remember not going but later in highschool everyone got the run down.. schools hold a useful medium but in poorer societies not everyone goes to school.. people can spread knowledge through peers but it's a tough one..
radio/magazine/newspapers might help
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yeh can you imagine people with traditional/cultural mindset they'd think shes unchaste S
Yes, I agree with and I did understand your point, but we are talking about the one (she or he) who already made a sin .
I know that traditionalist are so hard because they don't know that some women are without (the part that bleeds).
you missed my point, a person's past is between them and God, of course they should get the consequence of their actions. Though they shouldn't have to result into doing surgery or whatever. No one is perfect and if men or women expect perfection then they're in for disappointment. she or he should be open enough to say they were in a relationship before if they can't trust a person to respect and look over their past then how can they wish to continue a relationship? i don't know but if it makes them happy that their significant other is happy with some ideology while holding a lie.. good luck to them.
I agree with you and I didn't say the opposite and of course I didn't missed your point, I just pointed out that some punishement of the one who already made a sin is not from the past, she must told her fiancee that she was in a fair before and she repents, if he will accept her, fine this is our aims , if he do not accept her, fine as we know that marriage is kissmat and nassibe . My aim is not to contradict with you or whatever you might called it, I just made a point.
A person is what they are today and now, not yesterday and before. people change, past is past. i'm not advocating sex before marriage.
Yes, I'm with you in this point. If a woman or a man wants to live in a lie, fine this is her/his life, but as they said some doors shouldn't be opened .
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Whoever calls a woman a "Zania" and does not produce four eye witnesses, he is condemned for ever as a LIAR.
I'm not calling anyone "Zania" as you claimed . We're talking about "she" and she can be anyone. And I'm not waiting for you to show me the punishement of calling anyone without proofs.
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I'm not calling anyone "Zania" as you claimed .
Not you, but those people who accuse a woman of not being a virgin because she is not bleeding.
They are ignorant in regards to female bodies, and they are ignorant as to what the Qur'an says on the issue. nope
What do you think could be a possible solution for this problem? Any ideas? What do you say if you are faced with those misconceptions, for example by male friends? Do you educate them about the matter?
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Not you, but those people who accuse a woman of not being a virgin because she is not bleeding.
They are ignorant in regards to female bodies, and they are ignorant as to what the Qur'an says on the issue. nope
What do you think could be a possible solution for this problem? Any ideas? What do you say if you are faced with those misconceptions, for example by male friends? Do you educate them about the matter?
Perhaps majority of men are not even aware of there being a delicate membrane called hymen on the "recepticle" of unmarried women. If someone finds someone who is curious about the virginity aspect of his newly wed wife he should be told that there is no litmus test for such thing and he should trust and believe in the chastity of his wife and should never enquire about it. The honor and dignity of women should never be compromised.
While discussing with hadith mongers who think that one can't live without hadith, I put to some of them, close friends, the question whether they know how many are the apertures in front of one's wife and which one is the true "recepticle" and whether there is some hadith which tells you to make use of which of the two apertures, nine out of ten married for years men did not know that there are two openings. Then I tell them that Qur'aan even tells about this delicate and the most private matter, with advice to them to get rid of conjecture mongers and to seek guidance from Qur'aan about every aspect of their life.
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Not you, but those people who accuse a woman of not being a virgin because she is not bleeding.
They are ignorant in regards to female bodies, and they are ignorant as to what the Qur'an says on the issue. nope
I agree that people don't know about these situation of women who they are not bleeding from creation. And this kind of women will suffer in a traditional area and this is not just in islam as you trying to say this is in Mexic too and in some parts in italy in the south, in india , in pakistan ..etc . About Muslims world I think they are aware of this situation of this kind of women but the illitare people are the problem not the educated Muslims .
What do you think could be a possible solution for this problem?
I didn't like a program (in the first time but later I found it good) that has been done in our national TV where they brought some women are not virgin from creation and they have made it clear that some women are not virgin and people now know this thing.
Any ideas?
Yes, educate people about the matter as our national TV did .
What do you say if you are faced with those misconceptions, for example by male friends? Do you educate them about the matter?
First of all I prefer forget the past , just to make it clear for you (I think you have a bad idea about me).
Second of all I will show anyone his misconceptions where they stand . Because the one who judge is God not him. And that if she repent and you repent, why you will ask for issues that she or he repented .
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And this kind of women will suffer in a traditional area and this is not just in islam as you trying to say this is in Mexic too and in some parts in italy in the south, in india , in pakistan ..etc .
This was NOT what I was trying to say. Please stop putting words into my mouth.
This is a board about Islam, so naturally many of the issues being discussed are about things related to traditions or circumstances in Muslim countries. It is not necessary to put a disclaimer under each and every post stating that this or that issue does not only happen in Muslim countries!
I didn't like a program (in the first time but later I found it good) that has been done in our national TV where they brought some women are not virgin from creation and they have made it clear that some women are not virgin and people now know this thing.
Interesting. TV might be a good method because this way you can reach people who can't or won't read.
About Muslims world I think they are aware of this situation of this kind of women but the illitare people are the problem not the educated Muslims .
I agree that lack of education plays a role and ignorance is more widespread among people who are illiterate or have no access to proper education / information, but it is a sad fact that even many "educated" people do not have a clue about many basic things, such as the lack of bleeding.
Secondly -- part of the problem are the glaring double standards being applied to men and women. If men wouldn't insist their bride is a virgin although they themselves have sexual experience, there would be less need for women to worry about bleeding and hymen restoration and all that stuff. And this sort of attitude is found in all classes and among people with all levels of education. So the issue is not only about education, it's also about patriarchal tendencies in a society.
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While discussing with hadith mongers who think that one can't live without hadith, I put to some of them, close friends, the question whether they know how many are the apertures in front of one's wife and which one is the true "recepticle" and whether there is some hadith which tells you to make use of which of the two apertures, nine out of ten married for years men did not know that there are two openings.
I almost didn't ask this question but I have to, for clarity's sake...which two apertures in front of one's wife are you talking about exactly?
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This was NOT what I was trying to say. Please stop putting words into my mouth.
Ok, sorry .
This is a board about Islam, so naturally many of the issues being discussed are about things related to traditions or circumstances in Muslim countries. It is not necessary to put a disclaimer under each and every post stating that this or that issue does not only happen in Muslim countries!
It was just a point of view that these things not in Muslims countries, they are world widely . when people read, they will think that these things are in muslims countries only .
Interesting. TV might be a good method because this way you can reach people who can't or won't read.
Yes, sure but please keep privacy not showing the face of the women .
Secondly -- part of the problem are the glaring double standards being applied to men and women. If men wouldn't insist their bride is a virgin although they themselves have sexual experience, there would be less need for women to worry about bleeding and hymen restoration and all that stuff. And this sort of attitude is found in all classes and among people with all levels of education. So the issue is not only about education, it's also about patriarchal tendencies in a society.
I think God was clear in that subject that the zania will be with zani or mushriq and that zani will be with zania mushriqa
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peace
It was just a point of view that these things not in Muslims countries, they are world widely .
when people read, they will think that these things are in muslims countries only .
The starting post was about "the virginity industry", the business of hymenoplasty, virginity faking devices, women being killed for not being virgin etc. These days, this is a problem mainly in Muslim / Arab countries.
I guess nobody here believes it is an inherently "Islamic" problem, but we should not close our eyes and respond with denial and knee-jerk reactions if attention is brought to the fact that there is a problem that occurs mainly within Muslim societies.
Instead we have to take a look at the possible causes ... for example
~ Did certain patriarchal traditions and opinions which degrade women find their way into interpretations of Islam?
~ How come so many (young) Muslim men have a double standard when it comes to the issue and feel perfectly justified in doing so?
~ Why do so many parents watch their daughters' every step and are anxious that she will have no sex whatsoever before marriage, while tolerating it that their sons sleep around, have a girlfriend etc.?
~ Why do these things become an issue in societies where the majority of people claim to be religious?
~ How can any human being believe it is right to kill another human being in order to "restore family honour"? Where does this very strange notion of honour that sees sex as a much bigger crime than murder, come from? How can people actually believe this is what God wants? At which point have traditions, twisted thinking and religion been mixed up in order to make people feel this way?How can this be addressed? On an scientific level (i.e. educating people about the facts and myths surrounding the hymen), on a religious level (educating people that the Qur'an prescribes the same standards for men and women), or both?
It is time that people in some countries stop defining the worth and morality of a woman by whether she is a virgin or not. It is time that people stop placing the honor of a whole family between the legs of its female members AND believe this is somehow in accordance with religion. It is time that societies and the judicial systems in some countries stop treating people who commit "honor based violence" with so much lenience. And so on ...
So the whole virginity issue is just one of the many manifestations of a serious and ever growing problem in certain parts of the world and in the ummah.
Yes, sure but please keep privacy not showing the face of the women .
You don't have to show anybody's face in order to explain the issue. http//www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-009.gif Imho it would be enough to get someone who is being taken seriously by people to sit in front of the camera and talk about.
As much as I abhor fatwas, I think the late Ali Gomaa gave out an important signal when he issued the fatwa I posted earlier on, and he said some very important things. Now how about scholars, imams, religious teachers addressing the issue too? I am sure that would have an impact on people in the long run. But instead, most of them are too busy getting all in a huff about women possibly being able to do with their bodies what they want to do and conjuring up images of the devastating effect this might have on society, while conveniently ignoring the behaviour of men in this regard.
Maybe Heba Qutb should address the subject too in one of her TV apperances ... ;D
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The urethra is not normally large enough for a man to get in! its the 'urine pipe' and the opening is small like the opening of a mans is small!
The fact was mentioned about presence of two openings, which to a large number of men, educated and scholarly included, is not known, how would they know the delicacies of delicate membrane. The virginity issue bothers only a small number of men the world over, mostly who are themselves mentally sick or are themselves debauch.
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http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FileFemale_anatomy.png
I was scratching my head about this two aperture business. The anatomical drawing is not to scale. The urethral opening is so small that it is almost invisible ( to the untrained eye).
As for the general debate. It is a sad fact that hymen restoration industry's clients are virtually all muslims. As for the educated muslims now that would be a good idea (copied from Gandhi).
It is a difficult issue and there are no easy answers. However I feel as women increasingly become more empowered, which ever society, the problem will diminish. It is not about educating men (very difficult task indeed) but liberating women.
regards -
No, don't worry we are going to learn how to detect the difference
.and!
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The virginity industry
http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8641099.stm
these women consider themselves as playful things for men and they are trained to think like that; they don't need any small operation, they need a big one! elektro elektro elektro