Quran vs quranists
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you are questioning God on why He said things in a certain way? o
No, I'm questioning you not God because you said that wisdom is Quran whic they are separated in more than 20 verses.
Your question shows that you do not understand what WISDOM really means, so there is no point in me answering and the other poster was right.
If I don't understand the word wisdom, what about the famous interpreters of Quran. Are they also don't understand the word ? or do you have another meaning of the word, care to enlighten us from Quran ? Denying this fact is denying Quran as it is from it, nothing from my mind.
As I said before you're afraid of living the same nightmares of your first fallacies .This is the only reason I see for you.
You claim wisdom doesnt mean wisdom and want proof that it does? ???
I already proved that, and it is not just me alone . If you are correct that correct us with proof ? don't just say it is.
let me remind you what God said about claiming something must be with proof " 2111. And they say, "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad م, "Produce your proof if you are truthful."
sorry not wasting my time banging my head on another brick wall. Wisdom is NOT a book and it is not sunnah or hadith and it never will be no matter how you twist it.
Is that too hard to understand ? you said it is not, so tell us why and how ?
The prophet followed the sunnah of Allah which is in Quran. The hadith is the hadith of Allah in Quran. Are you telling me that Allah did everything as is in the HADITH of Bukhari?
No, this is your answer . until you answer this question you'll get more details " is God said that he will protect this HIKMA ? as it seems it came before the Torah and the Gospel who they already had been distorted .
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I have made bold everything you have added to Gods words that are not in the Arabic Quran.
Sorry to dispoint you, the translator is the one who add these things and it is not an add because he gave you the meaning and it is correct, if it is Arabic you'll guess these things yourself .
As the verse says the prophet is to RECITE the verses from QURAN
Are you sure ? God said " reciting our verses" and he didn't say Quran because he mentioned Quran alone and the same verse after "and" , go look for the original text in arabic . But you take the meaning from a translator that he means by verses (Quran) . Well let me remind you that the verses of Allah are not just Quran .
and in doing that it will teach them the wisdom of what they didnt know, like jesus was not crucified, like not worshipping others besides Allah etc etc. There is much wisdom IN the book that the prophet was to RECITE. unfortunately God also said there will be those that just dont 'get it'
is telling people Jesus not crucified wisdom ??? are you sure ? you said before that it is correcting some fallacies . Are you aware what does wisdom mean ? . No the prophet was to recite and to teach and to warn .
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Sorry to dispoint you, the translator is the one who add these things and it is not an add because he gave you the meaning and it is correct, if it is Arabic you'll guess these things yourself .
I know who the translator is and I know he adds words to Allah because he adds hadith to Allahs words too. You are as much a criminal in this as he is because you use this translation with added hadith.Are you sure ? God said " reciting our verses" and he didn't say Quran because he mentioned Quran alone and the same verse after "and" , go look for the original text in arabic .
So are you saying that 'reciting to you Our verses' means Allah recited the hadith and then Quran? 'The verses' are the verses of Quran. ???
But you take the meaning from a translator that he means by verses (Quran) . Well let me remind you that the verses of Allah are not just Quran .
so what other 'verses' did Allah recite?is telling people Jesus not crucified wisdom ??? are you sure ? you said before that it is correcting some fallacies . Are you aware what does wisdom mean ? . No the prophet was to recite and to teach and to warn .
yes I am aware what wisdom means but I really dont think you are. The prophet was to recite Quran verses, this IS teaching and IN the Quran verses there ARE warnings against doing what you are doing!
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No, I'm questioning you not God because you said that wisdom is Quran whic they are separated in more than 20 verses.
So if I was to say, here is a book and it is full of wisdom...you'd think that wisdom just can't be the book because they are "separated"? Jeez.Wisdom is, for example, a course of action that is tested by experience etc as being right in certain circumstances (in hindsight for example) that one can use in similar situations as a tried and tested method of success for any particular endeavour...so if I say Sun Tzu's Art of War has some wisdom in it...it means I would read it, match it with experience, external situations if I must, correlate the two and decide, wow...that guy was quite brilliant for his time. I don't need Sun Tzu alive and kicking because I have the book he wrote, I don't need a series of people over the ages telling me what they thought Sun Tzu meant, as long as I have the book and my wits I can whip any army and make them beg, so to say.
Why not just use the original source then and dump the extraneous bs when it is in such bad shape that it contradicts, adds, substracts and dances a jig all over the dead body? When the source itself says to do so? It's human nature to add useless things to something simple... to set themselves apart, to form numerous little pockets of resistance to something that needs no addition/complication because that's how they think they'll get one over the others.
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I know who the translator is and I know he adds words to Allah because he adds hadith to Allahs words too. You are as much a criminal in this as he is because you use this translation with added hadith.
This is not our subject, bring other translator and let me know what wisdom is ? and about criminal things or whatever you want , this is not up to you. God will decide .
So are you saying that 'reciting to you Our verses' means Allah recited the hadith and then Quran? 'The verses' are the verses of Quran. ???
The word in Arabic is "" and allah has other Ayatte one of them is Quran and what it contains . And I didn't say that Allah recited hadith .
so what other 'verses' did Allah recite?
The word is " " and allah has many ayatte,one of them is Quran . in the word in Arabic of "recite" is "" which means tell and say and recite so basically God has many Ayyatte, Quran is one of them .
- Say "Behold all that is in the heavens and the earth," but neither Ay?t (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) nor warners benefit those who believe not.
yes I am aware what wisdom means but I really dont think you are. The prophet was to recite Quran verses, this IS teaching and IN the Quran verses there ARE warnings against doing what you are doing!
No, wrong . The prophet was to recite Ayyatte Allah and they are many one of them is Quran, was to warn the whole Oma , and to teach the believers their deen that's why God said "teaching you (the believers) ..".
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So if I was to say, here is a book and it is full of wisdom...you'd think that wisdom just can't be the book because they are "separated"?
who says that, of course the book will contain Wisdom but is it the same wisdom that Allah talks about ? you're talking about one book, look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
we can take wisdom from the book of Allah but about "the wisdom" ?
Jeez.
Are you Christian ? the word "Jeez" is derived from the phrase "Jesus Christ!" .
Wisdom is, for example, a course of action that is tested by experience etc as being right in certain circumstances (in hindsight for example) that one can use in similar situations as a tried and tested method of success for any particular endeavour...so if I say Sun Tzu's Art of War has some wisdom in it...it means I would read it, match it with experience, external situations if I must, correlate the two and decide, wow...that guy was quite brilliant for his time. I don't need Sun Tzu alive and kicking because I have the book he wrote, I don't need a series of people over the ages telling me what they thought Sun Tzu meant, as long as I have the book and my wits I can whip any army and make them beg, so to say.
Why not just use the original source then and dump the extraneous bs when it is in such bad shape that it contradicts, adds, substracts and dances a jig all over the dead body? When the source itself says to do so? It's human nature to add useless things to something simple... to set themselves apart, to form numerous little pockets of resistance to something that needs no addition/complication because that's how they think they'll get one over the others.Your post is your answer "Wisdom is, for example, a course of action that is tested by experience etc as being right in certain circumstances (in hindsight for example) that one can use in similar situations as a tried and tested method of success for any particular endeavour...so if I say Sun Tzu's Art of War has some wisdom in it"
About the book of Sun Tzu art of war that contains wisdom as you claimed, can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it ?
P.S Wisdom from God is the subject .
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This is not our subject, bring other translator and let me know what wisdom is ? and about criminal things or whatever you want , this is not up to you. God will decide .
wisdom is the same, I have posted what wisdom is, it doesnt change meaning where it is in a verse or whether it comes before, alongside or after any other word, it still means wisdom.The word in Arabic is "" and allah has other Ayatte one of them is Quran and what it contains . And I didn't say that Allah recited hadith .
No, the ayateen in this verse and any other where it says ayateen means verses. If it says ayat it means verse.The word is " " and allah has many ayatte,one of them is Quran . in the word in Arabic of "recite" is "" which means tell and say and recite so basically God has many Ayyatte, Quran is one of them .
No, there are many ayat (ayateen) in Quran. The word in this verse is ayateena (our verses).
Any ayat recited to Muhammed is in Quran, if you think this is wrong please show where the other recited verses are.- Say "Behold all that is in the heavens and the earth," but neither Ay?t (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) nor warners benefit those who believe not.
In this verse the ayat is signs. There are many signs of God all around you.
No, wrong . The prophet was to recite Ayyatte Allah and they are many one of them is Quran, was to warn the whole Oma , and to teach the believers their deen that's why God said "teaching you (the believers) ..".
The prophet was to recite the verses of Quran, he cannot 'recite' the signs as they are all around us as God said they are. The Quran clearly says they are all around us and the teaching was teaching Quran. Now if you are trying to tell me that another sign or verse from Allah is in hadith please show the hadith which shows these other 'signs' of Allah. Where in hadith does it tell about the heavens and stars and biology and all the other 'signs' that are around us that Quran tells us about?
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who says that, of course the book will contain Wisdom but is it the same wisdom that Allah talks about ? you're talking about one book, look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
we can take wisdom from the book of Allah but about "the wisdom" ?
You've got the book and you've got the wisdom...use it 2378. You extract wisdom from situations/books/tv etc using something! You don't sit around just reciting do you?Are you Christian ? the word "Jeez" is derived from the phrase "Jesus Christ!" .
Shun the unbeliever Charlie, shun...Your post is your answer "Wisdom is, for example, a course of action that is tested by experience etc as being right in certain circumstances (in hindsight for example) that one can use in similar situations as a tried and tested method of success for any particular endeavour...so if I say Sun Tzu's Art of War has some wisdom in it"
Yes! My post is the answer, indeed it is. Are you answered enough yet?About the book of Sun Tzu art of war that contains wisdom as you claimed, can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it ?
lol, I just sit around reciting it...what do you think? Man, I must give the other posters credit for their patience. Kudos y'all.P.S Wisdom from God is the subject
P.S. Yes? And?
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You've got the book and you've got the wisdom...use it 2378. You extract wisdom from situations/books/tv etc using something! You don't sit around just reciting do you?
Shun the unbeliever Charlie, shun...
Yes! My post is the answer, indeed it is. Are you answered enough yet?
lol, I just sit around reciting it...what do you think? Man, I must give the other posters credit for their patience. Kudos y'all.P.S. Yes? And?
I get the impression from your reply that you are suggesting READING the Quran and using ones BRAIN and THINKING about it instead of marely RECITING it Now WHY would one READ it and use ones own BRAIN to THINK and REFLECT on its verses when we have schollars who have done that for us, so we dont have to THINK shudder
;D ;D peace
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wisdom is the same, I have posted what wisdom is, it doesnt change meaning where it is in a verse or whether it comes before, alongside or after any other word, it still means wisdom.
For the third time bring your proof . I did bring mine . That this wisdom that came after the book of Allah is not the same as the word wisdom alone in some verses.
And if you said that wisdom is wisdom ? where it is? as I see you have just Quran ? and God said The book and the wisdom ?
Please just don't talk without a proof from Quran . Eeveryone understood the thread and agreed about equality, the problem is in you not your understanding . Just bring a proof if you're truthful .
No, the ayateen in this verse and any other where it says ayateen means verses. If it says ayat it means verse.
No, verses just one of the Ayateena . Look at the verse, God mentioned Quran just after sayings verses , so why he will mention two things are the same ? "recite to you(the believers) our verses, teaching you the book ..." . did you see ?
No, there are many ayat (ayateen) in Quran. The word in this verse is ayateena (our verses).
look everything in the universe including you is an Aya . I'm Arab not you . Aya after all means proof, evidence....etc.
Any ayat recited to Muhammed is in Quran, if you think this is wrong please show where the other recited verses are.
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Thus do We explain the Ay?t (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, so that they may turn (unto the truth).
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And recite (O Muhammad م to them the story of him to whom We gave Our Ay?t (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), but he threw them away; so Shait?n (Satan) followed him up, and he became of those who went astray.
So look again God said recite the story . is the story is verse or Quran ?
In this verse the ayat is signs. There are many signs of God all around you.The prophet was to recite the verses of Quran, he cannot 'recite' the signs as they are all around us as God said they are.
what ? The prophet can also recite the signs justifying from Quran
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Does not man see that We have created him from Nutfah (mixed male and female sexual discharge - semen drops). Yet behold he (stands forth) as an open opponent.
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And he puts forth for Us a parable, and forgets his own creation. He says "Who will give life to these bones after they are rotten and have become dust?"
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Say (O Muhammad م "He will give life to them Who created them for the first time! And He is the All-Knower of every creation!"
what God said to the prophet ? he said to him to tell people about his signs .
If you're going to waste my time without proofs, please please let me speak with people with knowledge .
The Quran clearly says they are all around us and the teaching was teaching Quran. Now if you are trying to tell me that another sign or verse from Allah is in hadith please show the hadith which shows these other 'signs' of Allah. Where in hadith does it tell about the heavens and stars and biology and all the other 'signs' that are around us that Quran tells us about?
I don't want to answer this question for two reasons
1- you're avoiding the subject and you will hide the real thread as you always do .
2- All the hadith that I can give you is in Arabic, and as I know you said that it is rude to give me arabic .
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since when HIKMAH is translated or meant to be Sunnah/Legal Ways/Rules/Regulations/Law/Jurisprudence/Hadith
In 381, God tells us that all prophets were given the BOOK (alkitab) and WISDOM(alhikmah) so if hikmah means hadith/laws/regulations, all other prophets must have given out hadiths of their own too? do muslims accept this...no. Nor this means that these laws were the same as Muhammad.
According to the 1736-39
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated"
So hikmah is what God teaches and God teaches us in the Quran and not any other books.
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You've got the book and you've got the wisdom...use it 2378.
- It is He Who has created for you (the sense of) hearing (ears), eyes (sight), and hearts (understanding). Little thanks you give.
Is that about Quran ? if Yes how, if No how ?
You extract wisdom from situations/books/tv etc using something! You don't sit around just reciting do you?
Yes, sure. I didn't say the opposite. The question is simple in understanding is the book and wisdom are the same thing ? if yes how? if no why and how?
Let me remind you again that this kind of wisdom is from God .
Shun the unbeliever Charlie, shun...
So, the answer is yes but Charlie the unicorn is not going to paradise. Let me introduce Islam to you sister ?
Yes! My post is the answer, indeed it is. Are you answered enough yet?
Well, that's depend on you . Did you ?
lol, I just sit around reciting it...what do you think? Man, I must give the other posters credit for their patience. Kudos y'all.
You didn't answer my question (how did you take wisdom from it? )
P.S. Yes? And?
If Yes, know that your post is talking about wisdom of Charlie the unicorn .
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hikmah is not something tangible like a book. its a form of capacity that is given by God to every human and was specially given to prophets and messengers in abundance due to the critical nature of their tasks. how hard is this concept to understand. i dont get how ppl use this term to refer to books hadith written by some imam folks.
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since when HIKMAH is translated or meant to be Sunnah/Legal Ways/Rules/Regulations/Law/Jurisprudence/Hadith
In 381, God tells us that all prophets were given the BOOK (alkitab) and WISDOM(alhikmah) so if hikmah means hadith/laws/regulations, all other prophets must have given out hadiths of their own too? do muslims accept this...no. Nor this means that these laws were the same as Muhammad.Yes, this is my point. All the prophets were given the book and the wisdom(hadith/laws/regulations) and it changed from prophet to prophet, none of them has the same Wisdom .
ok let's see the verse God said "all prophets were given the book" is it the same book ?
According to the 1736-39
- And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge.Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those one will be questioned (by All?h).
- And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like the mountains in height.
- All the bad aspects of these (the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.
first of all 36 talk about this kind of people ( one?s saying "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard. )
Second of all 37 talks about arrogance .
Third of all talks about that these things that have been mentioned before are hateful to our God.
- This is (part) of Al-Hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character) which your Lord has revealed to you (O Muhammad م. And set not up with All?h any other il?h (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected, (from All?h?s Mercy).
forth of all The things that have been mentioned before are part of Al-HIKMA and this HIKMA is not the same HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and God knows.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself.
Is Hadith not verified ?
I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated"
See above .
So hikmah is what God teaches and God teaches us in the Quran and not any other books.
OK, Wisdom is what God teaches us how? are the wisdom of a normal man is the same wisdom that God gives to his prophet ? and why here in this verse 39 Wisdom comes alone ?
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hikmah is not something tangible like a book.
So, if it is not something tangible as you claimed why it comes after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah ? let me remind you that these things are tangible .
I know that there is another kind of wisdom that it is not tangible but it is not the one described in Quran after "the book" and God also told us about this kind of wisdom .
its a form of capacity that is given by God to every human and was specially given to prophets and messengers in abundance due to the critical nature of their tasks.
Do you think that prophets are phylosophers ?
how hard is this concept to understand. i dont get how ppl use this term to refer to books hadith written by some imam folks.
Yes, it is hard for you . As I see you're just talking in air .
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Leyna , please if you have anything about the subject enlighten us ?
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Is that about Quran ? if Yes how, if No how ?
I can tell through this exchange that you are myopic to the extent that you cannot see beyond a sentence to the next and how they relate.Yes, sure. I didn't say the opposite. The question is simple in understanding is the book and wisdom are the same thing ? if yes how? if no why and how?
Let me remind you again that this kind of wisdom is from God .
Let's say the book is only as good as the reader.So, the answer is yes but Charlie the unicorn is not going to paradise. Let me introduce Islam to you sister ?
I suppose you see the end of days too? The wise thing to do, is to introduce something that you would be well acquainted with.Well, that's depend on you . Did you ?
I find such games tedious.You didn't answer my question (how did you take wisdom from it? )
Here we go again, re-read my post please. Now, how do you extract wisdom? Do you take everything as is? Do you question, understand, analyse and reason?If Yes, know that your post is talking about wisdom of Charlie the unicorn .
No. How did you manage to last so long on forums with this style of illogical debate is my question. -
Leyna , please if you have anything about the subject enlighten us ?
Sorry, that reply was so surreal, it just cracked me up! peace
Actually, I think you raised a very interesting subject. But this thread -- like most others -- is already going down the drain with insults, game playing etc., and I am just not in the mood for any sort of exchange along the lines of "I am right and you are wrong".
nope