what is Quran
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I have been going through the articles on this site for quite a while and must confess that alot of the things i find here are contrary to the beliefs i have been brought up with. From one of the posts i found the following information regarding Quran.
The Quran is been passed via a physical book , first penned and arranged by the prophet himself ( 255, 16101-102),and also with hundered and thousand memorizing it word by word , therefore to give any credit to ?others? so as to raise the level of their legitimacy is to undermine the work of God and His messenger.
For me
That "the Quran is been passed via a physical book" is merely a claim. This claim needs independent support. You cite verses from the Book itself to support your claim about it. It is not acceptable. Suppose somone believes that the rulers form the third century AH got the Book compiled and then inserted in it verses which claim that it was revealed by God and compiled and disseminated by the Prophet what would be your rebuttal? In the enquiry of historicity of any written record the internal evidence in the support of the claims of the record such as that you provided (based on 255, 16101-102) is not valid. However, if internal proofs go against such a claim they are considered valid.Hope some one can shed light and try to clarify to me that in what way the preservence of Quran is different from the Hadith. What is the proof that it hasnt been temperd with just like the traditions and histroy (which we can only trace up to 200 AH).
Regards,
Ali -
Try to make a short sentence similar/resembling a verse of the Qur'aan, and if being a non Arab, seek help from even the most learned Arab to try it, or dig out from hundreds of thousands of pages written in the name of Hadith/history etc. Make this effort and you will get the answer to your querry.
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allli
Hope some one can shed light and try to clarify to me that in what way the preservence of Quran is different from the Hadith. What is the proof that it hasnt been temperd with just like the traditions and histroy (which we can only trace up to 200 AH).
Regards,
AliMazhar
Try to make a short sentence similar/resembling a verse of the Qur'aan, and if being a non Arab, seek help from even the most learned Arab to try it, or dig out from hundreds of thousands of pages written in the name of Hadith/history etc. Make this effort and you will get the answer to your querry
That was a
Pathetic! reply.Dear allli
The difference between preservation of Quran and Hadith can be described as
A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.
The Ayats were written down and memorized as soon as they were revealed.the proof for it will be discussed shortly, let us see what others have to say.
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The difference between preservation of Quran and Hadith can be described as
A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory. The Ayats were written down and memorized as soon as they were revealed.This scholarly statement is self contradictory. The last sentence is also on the same basis which is first negated to be of any value and authenticity.
What is considered as pathetic reply, that is the ONLY argument Allah has reperedly advanced to prove that Qur'aan is not compiled or authored by a human being. And see with little open eyes his underlined part of the question.
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Mazhar
What is considered as pathetic reply, that is the ONLY argument Allah has reperedly advanced to prove that Qur'aan is not compiled or authored by a human being. And see with little open eyes his underlined part of the question.
He is asking about preservation of Quran and not about its authorship?
allli
Hope some one can shed light and try to clarify to me that in what way the preservence of Quran is different from the Hadith. What is the proof that it hasnt been temperd with just like the traditions and histroy (which we can only trace up to 200 AH).
Regards,
AliAre you an eye doctor? in your every second post you recommend people to open their eyes? I guess you were a Buearucrat in Tax and Excise department, open your eyes, otherwise I will have to open public's eyes.
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Mazhar
He is asking about preservation of Quran and not about its authorship?allli
Are you an eye doctor? in your every second post you recommend people to open their eyes? I guess you were a Buearucrat in Tax and Excise department, open your eyes, otherwise I will have to open public's eyes.
Why I ask you to read things on the forum with little bit of open eyes is again your this post. The challenge is about the text that you have in your hands today. If you can't produce a like of it, then automatically it means that the text is preserved and it is not man made/authored as is the gossip under the caption Hadith and history. Allah has undertaken the responsibility to guard its text, and the evidence is built in the text.
As for your mention of Tax and Excise, use the search option, all is here written on this forum. Also find time to read the title page of the Urdu Book of Articles on the website. Me is on the Internet with full personal identity and location unlike majority of the people roaming on internet. My only desire is that you keep eyes open while discussing, it saves time and energy and helps avoid confusion, nothing else is the aim.
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chill man , just here to seek and learn. i am not here to make any scholarly statement or to refute any 1, on the other hand i am open to any logical arguement or statement ... As far as the superiority and purity of the text itself on the whole goes towards establishing it being a divine revelation , of course it does , but then again wasnt it possible for any body through out the 1400 years to insert certain verses if not atleast words here and there and then all it takes is few words to completely change the meaning of a line or sentence(note iam not talking of producing a thing like or equal to Quran)
plz do contribute but not with arrogance
a life long student
ali, -
allli
(note iam not talking of producing a thing like or equal to Quran)
Mr.Mazhar did you got the question now?
May Allah help you and guide us all.
Please avoid making arrogant statements in future,
Such as "open up your eyes", "read with open eyes" "who is Dr.Mingana?" "just a wandrer", "Bukhari type of people"
to mention few just represent your Beurucratic behavior. It is new life now Sir, wake up!and for as of now let us cncentrate on the question posted by
allli, this is very important one, please contribute if you can enhance one's knowledge. -
As far as the superiority and purity of the text itself on the whole goes towards establishing it being a divine revelation , of course it does , but then again wasnt it possible for any body through out the 1400 years to insert certain verses if not atleast words here and there and then all it takes is few words to completely change the meaning of a line or sentence(note iam not talking of producing a thing like or equal to Quran)
If someone would have inserted certain verses, or atleast words here and there, and then all it takes is few words to completely change the meaning of a line or sentence.... If this far fetched proposition did happen, then we have with us that thing today alongwith insertions. If someone could have done that then out of 6.4 billion people there should atleast be another one who could do the same thing. That is why Qur'aan says bring one similar from anywhere in the whole of world, and does not put restriction, not to bring it from Mecca or Madina or from Arab or from Bukhari etc. And when you say a hypothetical thing that someone may have inserted, that means authoring by human being to that extent. This challenge is the built in proof that the text we have today in our hands has nothing more than the original text of 1400 years back.
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As far as the superiority and purity of the text itself on the whole goes towards establishing it being a divine revelation , of course it does , but then again wasnt it possible for any body through out the 1400 years to insert certain verses if not atleast words here and there and then all it takes is few words to completely change the meaning of a line or sentence(note iam not talking of producing a thing like or equal to Quran)
If someone would have inserted certain verses, or atleast words here and there, and then all it takes is few words to completely change the meaning of a line or sentence.... If this far fetched proposition did happen, then we have with us that thing today alongwith insertions. If someone could have done that then out of 6.4 billion people there should atleast be another one who could do the same thing. That is why Qur'aan says bring one similar from anywhere in the whole of world, and does not put restriction, not to bring it from Mecca or Madina or from Arab or from Bukhari etc. And when you say a hypothetical thing that someone may have inserted, that means authoring by human being to that extent. This challenge is the built in proof that the text we have today in our hands has nothing more than the original text of 1400 years back.
Dead on!
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Mazhar
This challenge is the built in proof that the text we have today in our hands has nothing more than the original text of 1400 years back
And if you are in doubt as to which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a sura like it, and call on your helper, besides Allah, if you are truthful. (Qur'an 223)
But if ye cannot - and of a surety ye cannot - then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. -- Qur'an 2.24No writer would like to just copy another writer to reproduce the same literary work. Anybody can throw a similar challenge to produce another Gitanjali of Rabindranath Tagore, Hamlet of Shakespeare, Agnibina of Kazi Nazrul islam etc. to give a supernatural coating on those literary works, no matter how foolish that would sound.
I don't think so that by this challenge of Quran it is meant what your are trying to tell us.
There are lots and lots of work done on this, many ayats simialr and even whole Surahs have been written, and they were not pointed out by an average reader of Quran (which are the Majority) even arabs, the only way to check this is by memorization process, which is followed from heart to heart from centuries or recently by some codes.
You did not understand the actual challange of Quran. -
I don't think so that by this challenge of Quran it is meant what your are trying to tell us.
There are lots and lots of work done on this, many ayats simialr and even whole Surahs have been written, and they were not pointed out by an average reader of Quran (which are the Majority) even arabs,I could not understand this. Do you mean that many verses and even Surahs resembling Qur'aan were drafted by people. My poverty of knowledge, I am not aware of those if people have successfully produced such marvellous work. Would you like to share few such drafts/compilations.
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Mazhar
I could not understand this. Do you mean that many verses and even Surahs resembling Qur'aan were drafted by people. My poverty of knowledge, I am not aware of those if people have successfully produced such marvellous work. Would you like to share few such drafts/compilations
Have you ever read the book by Baha'u'llah named al-Kitab al-Aqdas?
If you want further drafts go to site surahlikeit.com
Now to decide how suceessfull they have been in their attempt is very very hard for a born muslim; Mazhar Sahib.
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I don't know about the Arabic but it sounds like a compilation of ahadeeth intermingled with the quran. In fact it is more an extension of sunni-ism than anything else and given that the Quran dissociates itself with ahadeeth and conjecture of man, this book cannot be said to have quranic standard unless the Sunni way was the right way in the first place.
I see that the author of the book has gotten lost by the parables of the quran, they are there to ensure consistency in the great reading. Regardless, the message sounds very nice although it does not appear divine in my eyes (keeping in mind I have given it a 5 minute read which isn't really sufficient to make a conclusion on it).
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peace Ali,
Hope some one can shed light and try to clarify to me that in what way the preservence of Quran is different from the Hadith.
From
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9599274.msg226873#msg226873A commonly stated argument by those who wish to raise traditional heresay/ahadith to divine-status level is that its compilation was the same as The Quran.
Is that really true? Lets look at the simple and obvious facts...
The Quran = God's Word
Ahadith = man's wordThe Quran = 100% fact/truth/perfect
Ahadith = mix of truth and falsehood (hence weak and strong hadith)The Quran = recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet Muhammad
Ahadith = not recorded under the DIRECT supervision of prophet MuhammadThe Quran = written AND memorised word for word as soon as it was transmitted
Ahadith = no-one ever claimed to record and memorise ahadith word for word as soon as it was transmittedThe Quran = protected explicitly by God Himself as stated in The Quran
Ahadith = no such explicit protection statedThe Quran = no Muslim doubts its credibility
Ahadith = each sect has its own versions, weak & strong ones etcThe Quran = in-built verification mechanism, e.g. challenges others to find inconsistancy, bring a chapter like it etc.
Ahadith = no such in-built mechanism, full of inconsistancies etc. -
I'd like to add to Wakas's list if I may
Quran very aware of itself, meaning it talks about itself and tells the reader how to read it.
hadith not aware of itself, meaning not defined in its boundaries, doesnt know its collector or collections. -
OPF
Regardless, the message sounds very nice although it does not appear divine in my eyes
Yes brother that is my point! people who study Quran for the first time, who have not what so ever information about it, think the same way as you did, some are even harsher.
Mazhar I am sorry, there was a spelling mistake
the link is suralikeit.com and not surahlikeit.com
