Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
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All I see is a quick rushing towards Quranic verses
That's damn well true, you sure as hell didn't see the quranic verses themselves.
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As I predicted, no one really answered to my question. All I see is a quick rushing towards Quranic verses while my first question was very simple. I am not vilifying you but only as a notice.
My second multiple-question is What kind of muslim am I, if I even don't know how the one who conveyed the message of Allah did his prayer, his hajj, his fast or gave zakat while I am already acquainted by the fact that the only source of emulation is the same person (ie. Muhammad) ? If somebody denies this obvious reality then please explain me in full details why those around Muhammad, when he was alive, followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses, whereas today when we see the Movement of Quran Alone, the sole thing that we perceive is discrepencies (worse than what we can find in Sunnism and Shiism particularly when it comes to rituals) amongst it followers (ie. see my above non exhaustive list) ?
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Jawad, this is your answer?
I repeat my question to you how do you know this report is true? Remember the first historical account was written over 150 years after the Prophet.
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As I predicted, no one really answered to my question. All I see is a quick rushing towards Quranic verses while my first question was very simple. I am not vilifying you but only as a notice.
I answered your question but it appears you lack the good manners to even acknowledge my answer, let alone respond.
My second multiple-question is What kind of muslim am I, if I even don't know how the one who conveyed the message of Allah did his prayer, his hajj, his fast or gave zakat while I am already acquainted by the fact that the only source of emulation is the same person (ie. Muhammad) ? If somebody denies this obvious reality then please explain me in full details why those around Muhammad, when he was alive, followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses, whereas today when we see the Movement of Quran Alone, the sole thing that we perceive is discrepencies (worse than what we can find in Sunnism and Shiism particularly when it comes to rituals) amongst it followers (ie. see my above non exhaustive list) ?
Why not try this question How do you know HOW he did his prayer is vital? Does the Quran tell you 'unless you do your prayer a certain way, it wont be accepted' ?
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Jawad, this is your answer?
I repeat my question to you how do you know this report is true? Remember the first historical account was written over 150 years after the Prophet.
There is no need to give you an answer because my question is also effective if I had asked it in this manner
My first multiple-question is After the death of Prophet Muhammad until the reign of the abbassids, during which first ahadiths books were compiled by al-Bukhari,Muslim, Abi Dawud (and others), what type of Islam, the muslim were following ? There were no one book of ahadiths, only Quran. So, how did muslim pray ? What amount of zakat did they give ? How did they do Hajj ? How did they do Fast ?
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Does the Quran tell you 'unless you do your prayer a certain way, it wont be accepted' ?
From this question I assume that you are from those people who think that Muhammad is not and was not a source of emulation for muslim people. So, I also assume that there is no benefit for Allah of having a mediator to convey His message. He could have used telepathy. I think you have no answers to my question and you are turning around, so I humbly suggest you to not try to divert the main topic by asking irrelevant questions.
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There is no need to give you an answer because my question is also effective if I had asked it in this manner
So basically, your question is 'what were the Muslims doing till the Abbasids?'. My counter question is how would you know either way? There's a gap of over a thousand years between us and the Abbasids. I got another counter question to which you'll probably answer with '.....'
If hadith were important to Islam, why were they not collected from the beginning. If what the Prophet did was so vital for Islam, why is it Malik says u drop the hands during the qiyam of salah and all other madhabib say you 'tie' your hands?
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From this question I assume that you are from those people who think that Muhammad is not and was not a source of emulation for muslim people. So, I also assume that there is no benefit for Allah of having a mediator to convey His message. He could have used telepathy. I think you have no answers to my question and you are turning around, so I humbly suggest you to not try to divert the main topic by asking irrelevant questions.
How is it an irrelevant questiion? Do you believe in the Quran or not? If you do, then the contents of the Quran MATTER. And lets face it, the Quran has absolutely no notion of 'how' one prays. It doesn't care about it so why are you caring about it. You may as well be asking me if the Quran says eating baked beans are ok or not.
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And lets face it, the Quran has absolutely no notion of 'how' one prays. It doesn't care about it so why are you caring about it.
From this answer I assume that you are from those people who think that Muhammad is not and was not a source of emulation for muslim people. So, I also assume that there is no benefit for Allah of having a mediator to convey His message.
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Well sir, you assumed wrong. I believe Muhammad Rasulullah was a source of emulation. However, HOW we find out about Muhammad is where we dispute. For you, it's not just the Quran whereas for me it is.
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I believe Muhammad Rasulullah was a source of emulation.
If you accept that Muhammad is a source of emulation then you must follow the same method of those around Muhammad, when he was alive, who followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses. You have no other choice than imitation of Muhammad, and to follow Quran alone is not appropriate if you claim that Muhammad is a source of emulation. Either your source of emulation is Muhammad so to be in unity with Quran, either your source of emulation is Quran so to be in unity with nobody. What is your choice please ?
However, HOW we find out about Muhammad is where we dispute. For you, it's not just the Quran whereas for me it is.
And the answer of this question of yours is coming in my next message.
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If you accept that Muhammad is a source of emulation then you must follow the same method of those around Muhammad, when he was alive, who followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses. You have no other choice than imitation of Muhammad, and to follow Quran alone is not appropriate if you claim that Muhammad is a source of emulation. Either your source of emulation is Muhammad so to be in unity with Quran, either your source of emulation is Quran so to be in unity with nobody. What is you choice please ?
Questions
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Why would I follow the same method as those with Muhammad? I never met them. Even if I wanted to follow them, how do I know I can trust reports about them?
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Is hadith in complete unity with the Quran? Why is the punishment of apostasy in the Quran and in hadith?
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Why is the Quran alone not appropriate if I wanted to emulate Muhammad. Does the Quran says it's not enough? If not, where did you get this?
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My counter question is how would you know either way? There's a gap of over a thousand years between us and the Abbasids. I got another counter question to which you'll probably answer with '.....'
I think, you and those like you are verily not understanding the reality of Book of Ahadiths and Book of revealed verses in both cases they represent the same thing means a BOOK.
Here an attempt to explain you in more details
The vehicle of knowledge (what is heard, what is seen) during the era of Muhammad in most cases was the oral transmission. What was revealed to Muhammad and he spoke from his mouth is what was heard by the people around him, and what was seen by them is what Muhammad did in the form of physical gestural. In both cases, the vehicle for the visual informations and audible informations is the oral transmission. When one puts these informations (visual & audible) in writings it gives you a BOOK.
According to academic researches, a first opinion is that the revealed verses were puted in writings just after the death of Muhammad and compiled during the era of the third caliph Uthman, to give finally a BOOK called the uthmanian vulgate (al mushaf al uthmani) which contained all revealed verses to Muhammad, according to the compilers. 30 years skiped before having a BOOK which was merely a compilation of the revealed verses (many companions have had their own compiled book of revealed verses but all were finally burnt). A second opinion is that the uthmanian vulgate came into in its final form during the reign of Abd al-Malik b. Marwan and his governor al-Hajjaj. A third opinion is that the Quran came actually into its final form during the 2nd/3rd century. A fourth opinion, the less interesting, is that it came into its final form during Muhammad's era.
Now, the main problem is that the oldest manuscript of the uthmanian vulgate that we have today is dated of 3rd century of Islamic Calendar, otherwise virtually same century than the Ahadiths Collections Books of al-Bukhari and his likes. There is a real problem of dating early manuscripts of Quran because of a lack of consensus between academic researchers and ancient manuscripts.
It's well known that Zayd b. Thabit was reluctant to compile such a codex because Muhammad never ordered it and most probably he preferred the oral way of transmission.
Just imagine, if today you were to trust on an oral transmission of the revealed verses, I think you would flee Islam diligently for the same reasons that you reject Ahadiths Collections Books.
Coming to the Ahadiths wich reprensent the deeds (in this topic they refer to ritualistic practices mainly salat, hajj, siyam, zakat) of Muhammad are nearlly same as reaveled verses (audible informations versus visual informations). Both have been transmit by the way of oral transmission in a first move, then in the second move the oral transmission was put in writings.
Why then do you fully trust in a revealed verses codex (uthmanian vulgate) which went throughout the same vehicle of transmission of informations (oral one's) and don't trust in an oral continuous transmission of Muhammad ritualistic practices (mainly salat, hajj, siyam, zakat) that have been write down and compile in a form of Ahadiths Books (alike procedure of uthmanian vulgate). These four are the main ones (salat, hajj, siyam, zakat).
I never said to you to trust in all Ahadiths but reconsider those which deal with the four main ritualistic practices (orthopraxy).
If hadith were important to Islam, why were they not collected from the beginning.
Previously explained that Muhammad never wanted that revealed verses were to be wrote down. Second, the visual informations don't need the same precaution of preservation than the audible informations. When Muhammad did salat, did his Hajj, did Siyam, paid Zakat, all these deeds, people around him seen each of it.
If what the Prophet did was so vital for Islam, why is it Malik says u drop the hands during the qiyam of salah and all other madhabib say you 'tie' your hands?
These little differences don't distord the core form of Salat that remains the same in both Sunnism and Shiism. And just ponder upon what the Movement of Quran Alone have done to the . It disfigured the beautiful orthopraxy of Muhammad.
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Questions
- Why would I follow the same method as those with Muhammad? I never met them. Even if I wanted to follow them, how do I know I can trust reports about them?
If you accept that Muhammad is a source of emulation then you must follow the same method of those around Muhammad, when he was alive, who followed his every steps, in other words they imitated him so that they couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses. You have no other choice than imitation of Muhammad, and to follow Quran alone is not appropriate if you claim that Muhammad is a source of emulation. Either your source of emulation is Muhammad so to be in unity with Quran, either your source of emulation is Quran so to be in unity with nobody. What is your choice please ?
- Is hadith in complete unity with the Quran? Why is the punishment of apostasy in the Quran and in hadith?
In this topic I am only discussing about the orhtopraxy and mainly about salat, hajj, siyam, and zakat that the Quran Alone Followers disfigured
- Why is the Quran alone not appropriate if I wanted to emulate Muhammad. Does the Quran says it's not enough? If not, where did you get this?
If you accept that Muhammad is a source of emulation then you must follow the same method of those around Muhammad so that you couldn't go astray and with the aim of being in complete unity with his message which was the revealed verses. Don't forget oral transmission of visual informations are also credible and don't throw them like garbage.
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Salaam Dear Brother Jawad,
Please let us know whether the Prophet(pbuh) was following The Qur'aan ONLY, or he mixed it up with his own inventions too. In other words, tell us if the Prophet was a SUNNI or just a MUSLIM, a follower of The Qur'aan ONLY?
In 3531,32, did GOD say that we inherited SUNNAH on top of The Qur?aan too, or He said that He made us the inheritors of The Qur?aan ONLY?
Besides, in 638, hasn't GOD said, that He did not left ANYTHING OUT of the book/The Qur'aan? Doesn't this mean that we do NOT need any other source of GUIDANCE beside The Qur'aan?
In 3923 GOD tells us that The Qur'aan is the BEST HADITH, and that is exactly why in 7185, 456, and 7750 GOD(swt) ask an exclamatory question, i.e., ?in which hadith AFTER this/The Qur?aan will they believe??
Now if we believe in 3923, should we follow any other hadith beside The Qur?aan?
Peace,
Khalil -
Salaam Dear Brother Jawad,
Please let us know whether the Prophet(pbuh) was following The Qur'aan ONLY, or he mixed it up with his own inventions too. In other words, tell us if the Prophet was a SUNNI or just a MUSLIM, a follower of The Qur'aan ONLY?
In 3531,32, did GOD say that we inherited SUNNAH on top of The Qur?aan too, or He said that He made us the inheritors of The Qur?aan ONLY?
Besides, in 638, hasn't GOD said, that He did not left ANYTHING OUT of the book/The Qur'aan? Doesn't this mean that we do NOT need any other source of GUIDANCE beside The Qur'aan?
In 3923 GOD tells us that The Qur'aan is the BEST HADITH, and that is exactly why in 7185, 456, and 7750 GOD(swt) ask an exclamatory question, i.e., ?in which hadith AFTER this/The Qur?aan will they believe??
Now if we believe in 3923, should we follow any other hadith beside The Qur?aan?
Peace,
KhalilHere we go with a new round of Quranic verses. I think you didn't read the entire topic from the begining to the end. All answers to your questions are there. Re-read please.
Specially this one http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600535.msg250280#msg250280
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Peace All
This is just a heads up from my perspective but reading the thread's title, and I have not read the thread, I think this discussion will go nowhere since the person who posted the thread already has their mind made up. So I would hazard to guess any discussion with such a person will bear that out clearly.
Some questions to which Quran only followers can't answr, basically they can't !
Joe
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Peace All
This is just a heads up from my perspective but reading the thread's title, and I have not read the thread, I think this discussion will go nowhere since the person who posted the thread already has their mind made up. So I would hazard to guess any discussion with such a person will bear that out clearly.
Joe
Dear brother,
What kind of justice it is ?
I posted 2 questions that still not answered but in return I get plenty of questions. And to be honest, I answered most of them excepting those that deal with Quranic verses.
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Peace
Justice is between equals.
I'm just giving my opinion about what I see.
You have asked about a broad array of things and you might want to take these up seperately in different threads. Much of what you inquired about have been discussed and you might want to get familiar with the search function.
Joe