Hot/"ramadan" Answer
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Peace Sarah,
This thread is long as a result of attempts to refute the arguments on page 1 but instead unwillingly contributing to strengthening them and inadvertently creating the most detailed resource anywhere in the world on the issue of the timing according to the great reading. So the good arguments are on page 1 and if you can read between the lines then the rest is just the icing on the cake.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace all
Ayman,
Have you had the time to update your article on ramadan timing, taking into consideration the other points raised in this forum?
Thanks,
Ramon
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ayman i just wrote down in detail all i wanted to say about how to know when the months are ,and the computer ate them all.and it is late ,tomorrow longday.so i am going to make this quick.
i cannot believe what happened the computer ate the most important thing i have written in my life.
any ways i willl do it again.
first of all let us agree on what a shaher is ,
yes every one tell you it is a month ,well it is not .
all we know is that a shaher is present twelve times in a year.
and it is both lunar and solar.very well.
ok the prophet was told to tell us in the quran about the ahillat ,we need to use them so we know time of haj.good
so what is a shaher. it is the ahillat,but hey wait a minute am i saying that a month is from one ahillah to another.like maybe 26 days no not at all.
a ahillat is the combination of the hillals that is between or around five days. when the moon dies and there are those nights with out the moon then the moon is born again.those nights are what we call a shaher.yes those nights with out a moon.
yes that is a shaher and i will show you why. is is like only about five days.
and we have twelve of them in one year.so that we know the years.
good so it starts with the deiing of the moon to the birth of a new one,now why did allah tell us in the verse in the quran that we should come the homes from the door and not from the back,for if we count the ahiilat from the birth of a new moon then one shaher would be like 26 days but if come from the door of the shaher it will be like only five days.
strange what makes me say that,ok give one more minute.see about ashhur el haram,what could there be that we know them.
bare with me ,so now we know that a shaher is not the moon cycle,but the cycle of the ahillat.great,so how do we know ashhur al haram,we know from quran they are four.in one year four of those shahers have less nights then the ussuall ashhur.yes it is strange they are the shahers that come after the shaher of ramadan.and i will tell you how we know it is ramadan ,give me another minute.
onlythose ashhur all haram are seperate from eachother they like have two ashhur between them that are regular ashhur.in ahshur all haram their nights are only four and the rest of the ashhur have five nights.
so ashhur all haram are about four days long each and they are four.they come in pairs,this is what the test shows and often they are devided by a pair of regular shahers not months dont make the mistake of thinking a shaher is month.
it is a shaher ,the days and nights where one cannot see the mooon between the ahillat.
then we need to know when is ramadan.for it is true that the ashhur all haram start after the shaher of ramadan and that is what i have noticed.so know how do we know that ramadan has started.
or it is the coming shaher .
the quran tells us that the shaher of ramadan is a shaher of bayinat that we will be signaled with many signs to know it is it.
so let us see,since it is only a five night and day shaher as all the other regular shahers then it must be evident during the days that come before it that will give us all those signs.that it will be clear that this month is different.
so let us see together what are those signs.
1-the rain will start to fall again after a long summer.ramadan
2 change of season.
3-plants beggin to grow again.
4-the days stop form getting bigger and they start to get smaller.
5-one big moon in the sky and i mean really big. the biggest you can find all year round.the collor is different too.
6-the sun is different during sun set even after it sets those collors are differnt and the sun have a round shape we can see,with out hurting our eyes.it is also the biggest sun we can ever see.
7- all this in a few days likesome twenty days.or twenty six and can be found together with in that time frame.
6-some call the moon the harvest moon for the fulll moon during that time is full of light,and one can see very clearly.
so we get all those signs and then we know that the time this time when the moon is not there any more for those comming few days it is called the shaher of ramadan.yes five days we are ordered to fast those days without a moon.
during those days is lalayet al qadr.remmember when the quran says,(wa kan kaba qawsayne aw adna)yes between those too cresents when there is no moon to light the night,and there is only darkness it is the shaher.
the thing about those ashhur el hurum and ramadan well they dont change seasons,yes mostly ramadan is in september or october,and the hurum ashhur basically come,in march april and october december.
but do the experiments your selfs dont take my word for it.
inshaalah allah will lead us with the quran and nothing else,every thing else is shurk and will result in many ikhtilaf.
brother please forgive me if i have mistaken or mislead you in any way.
Allah knows best.
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Peace brother Mohamad, all,
Thank you Mohamad for your interesting post and for sharing your interesting theory. I will study it and reply soon. Right now I a have to rush because I am writing this from the Airport and my flight is going to be departing shortly.
Meanhwile, as requested by several members, I have summarized the findings on this thread in a new article. However, the article is in Arabic since I wanted to also test this understanding with Arabic speakers and interestingly, the arguments are much more compelling in Arabic
http//www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
I would be interested in feedback from Arabic speakers on the forum.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Selam Mohamad
Very good observation and a interesting concept which deffinitly calls for more investigation. If someone can put that in a article form it will be excellent to read and ponder over. Keep up the good work and may Allah guide us.
Peace
Selam Ayman
Any chance you will have that article translated into English?
Peace
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hope you have a safe trip.as for what you have written i have read it.
yes is see what you mean,i want you to know that i could not of come up with my conclusion if it was not for your help.
thank you again.
pls consider what haram means.
it mostly means unique.see it in the quran ,it means unique
al beit al haram,the unique house for there is non like it.
unique in the sense that it is left out from the other houses it might have other qualities that other houses do not.
ashhur hurum we have the same thing here again. they are unique in the number of days and nights mostly three or four as for the other ashhur they are five .
and concerning when in the quran it was Allah told us that the blood is haram ,pork,and the dead.it makes sense since it must be left out of our food,like kept unique as not to be eaten in relation to the other meat we eat.i hope this helps in your research and please forgive me if i lead you astray see i dont know.only allah is the one with knowledge.inshhaaa he will forgive me and i hope adn ask that he does.
salam
as for the day of jumua it is not jamaa3a but jumua maybe you out to look into that.thank you ayman and thank you all for your help. -
ayman as for youm al jumoua.
if we observe the aya it has alot of meaning in it.
i would want to high light each word in this phrase "noudiya min youm el joumoua"
usually al nidaa is something is done with an order or some thing to ask for,like here noudiya lilsalat.
it is clear up to here so some one is calling for prayer during the day ,meaning midday prayer but what is yaoum al joumoua.
here moslems might missunderstand this to be friday.
i would like to make clear that we dont have week days in the quran and they are neither seven.
so what is joumoua.dont worry i promise this is easy to understand and will be easier then most think.
joumoua is a word from jamaa but to make it smaller we say in arabic tasgheer ,meaning to make smaller ,jamaaa is alot and alot of people.so joumoua is a group of people and they dont have to be a big group just any group of people.
but what is meant by yaoum.so we have a call for mid day prayer from a group of people.
in the quran it is referd this word yaoum.in many many ayas .
yaoum meaning during the day of " " ,it is like when we say in english during the day of judgement.so we need to have judgement for the word that day to take place.it is connected to the subject .the day of something.
so what is the day of joumoua.
yaoum al joumoua ,it simpley means the day when a group meets .
so now the aya is clear it states clearly that when it is called for prayer on the day that there is a group of people together then stop work adn go pray.
it seems that Allah is telling us in the quran that he likes us to be in groups ,especially during mid day prayer,when ever there is a group who calls for mid day prayer then pray with them and stop your work that is.only in midday prayer.but this has taken a different meaning when we started
having the meaning to be days of the week ,those where never from the quran and have changed with time.
so people think it is a friday but it does not have to be a firday.it could be every day.or every time a group is calling for prayer during midday.
but that even does not nullify what moslems do on friday.it seems that they agreed to meet in groups only on fridays during mid day adn have the prayer.
i state again this is not wrong it goes with the aya.but please know that this does not mean that joumoua prayer happens only once a week.it could happen every day.and it could happen once a year in some cercumstances. -
Peace brother Mohamad, all,
Thank you Mohamad for your interesting post and for sharing your interesting theory. I will study it and reply soon. Right now I a have to rush because I am writing this from the Airport and my flight is going to be departing shortly.
Meanhwile, as requested by several members, I have summarized the findings on this thread in a new article. However, the article is in Arabic since I wanted to also test this understanding with Arabic speakers and interestingly, the arguments are much more compelling in Arabic
http//www.scribd.com/doc/30298535/%D9%85%D8%AA%D9%8A-%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%AF%D8%B1
I would be interested in feedback from Arabic speakers on the forum.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
In the name of God, the Almighty, the Merciful.
Peace Ayman, all.
Thank you for all your efforts. May God bless you.
Your understanding of the shahr ramadhan has certainly rubbed on me and that it has been about 4 to 5 years since I'm into this study. Your new article is surely something to look forward to reading. And although I'm not an arabic speaker I will take this as a sign that I should start learning into the language as well. Of course, we would appreciate this article to be in english by God's leave.
I am in the Philippines and a few minutes ago my son and I folded the world at the equator (0 degrees) and my country falls into the northern hemisphere but still close to the southern hemisphere.
Last year, I failed to witness the "scorching full moon" of July 7, 2009 since this is also the time that my daughter was born. It just missed my mind and apparently Satan's whisper was so strong that I'm unable to go out of the hospital to look at the moon. Tonight, June 26, 2010 is the "scorching full moon" here but I only got to see the moon at about close to 9 p.m. (today, June 26 2010 the moon should have risen at around 7 p.m. and with the eclipse running up to 845 p.m.) and I noticed the absence of the reddish hue already. Could it be because it has already risen up? Or could the absence of the reddish hue be due to our location in the hempishere?
This means that tonight I failed to see the moon rising up on the horizon as well as the eclipse. And this is my question Is it enough to see the full moon as a marker to fast? Or is it that we should be able to see the moon rising in its reddish glow to be able to say that we "witness" shahr ramadhan?" I have looked forward to this day since missing the shahr ramadhan in 2009 (the time I made the decision to fast) and the fasting but everything is God's will. There is always a reason for everything.
I would appreciate a response bro. It will help a lot in making the decision to fast tomorrow or not. By the way, my two sons (9 and 6 years old) and my daughter (7 years old) witnessed the full moon with me. Are they under any obligation to fast as well?
A response is really appreciated.
Peace.
Ramon jedi
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Peace all
And yes I am on Facebook too http//www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1654630457. There is no need to hide identity now since what I have been doing is already known here; though I'd still maintain that I am a nobody, I can guide no one even the ones I love and that I continue to learn from God.
It just hit me that witnessing the full moon is enough marker to fast
From Ayman's translation
- "shahr ramadhan" is when the reading was descended as a guidance for people and clarifications from the guidance and the criterion, so whomever witnesses "al-shahr", let him abstain it. And whomever was sick or traveling so a count of other days. The God wants to facilitate and not make it hard on you. And so complete the count and magnify The God for what He guided you and perhaps you would be thankful.
Or is it?
Thanks,
Ramon O0
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I quickly read it to see if there is a change of our understanding about of the night "alqadr" since our last exchange in November, 2004, page 3 of this thread.
I would like to read comments from other arabc speakers on your article.
You chose a relevant title for your article.It is a pleasure to read your articles.
Peace be with you all
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Salaam Ramon
Hereby some remarks related to your questions if I may.
This means that tonight I failed to see the moon rising up on the horizon as well as the eclipse. And this is my question Is it enough to see the full moon as a marker to fast? Or is it that we should be able to see the moon rising in its reddish glow to be able to say that we "witness" shahr ramadhan?" I have looked forward to this day since missing the shahr ramadhan in 2009 (the time I made the decision to fast) and the fasting but everything is God's will. There is always a reason for everything.
A red moon is not everywhere at the same day in the whole hemisphere.
In the Northern countries there is even during mid-summer seldom a real red moon.
So it seems to be better to follow the place where the Koran was sent down as an objective criterium for the timing of the fasting.
The hottest period of the year in Arabia is related to the summersolstice - this might go together in that region with a red moon.
So the first full moon after the summersolstice on the Northern Hemisphere seems to be relevant, it can be known all over the word by moon-calendars.
In an allegorical way all the believers all over the world witness this -shahr ramadan-.
This is an objective issue not depending on a personal experience. Mind the millions of believers who would miss the red moon because of a clouded day.
So also the believers who do not see the red moon in person should fast the -shahr ramadan-.I would appreciate a response bro. It will help a lot in making the decision to fast tomorrow or not. By the way, my two sons (9 and 6 years old) and my daughter (7 years old) witnessed the full moon with me. Are they under any obligation to fast as well?
God did not bring any hardship in the religion - verse 2278.
Verse 2184 states that the believers who are able to fast but do not fast should provide for the food of a poor person - this seems to imply that only the believers who are old enough to have a regular income and to engage into legal transactions - which is giving away money or food- should join the fast.
So your children are not obliged to fast, it seems.Salaam and ramadan kareem.
truthseeker171 -
please not that that the moon does not always keep the same distance from earth.
sometimes it is close and sometimes it is far.and that distance is grate about 15 degrees in difference.
it is important to know that the moon is full sometimes at a closer distance adn sometimes at a further distance.
for one cycle of distance the moon needs to make takes one year.exactly one year,i find that very strange.
Allah subhanahi wa taala tells us in the quran "wa qadarnahu manazilla hata ada kal erjun al kadeem" some people understand this as the regular moon phases.
but i think arjun this word means lantern. so the aya clearly states that we have given levels till it comes back as an old lantern.
the meaning is clear that this is a full moon with dimmed light ,in contrast to a full moon with a strong light.if it is close then the light is strong and if it far then the light of the full moon is dim.
so if we put that with the yearly sun cycle then we might find out that maybe when the moon is closest and at the same time it is full during that day,then we now that the coming shahr is ramadan ,please refer back to my previous post to see what i mean by shahr.
back to the moon .and we know those days when the moon is furthers form the earth we might see ashhur hurum for they last longer then two days.
.i will try to put that in drawing to explain what i mean.
salam. -
Peace sister Marie,
I quickly read it to see if there is a change of our understanding about of the night "alqadr" since our last exchange in November, 2004, page 3 of this thread.
I would like to read comments from other arabc speakers on your article.
You chose a relevant title for your article.
It is a pleasure to read your articles.It is great to hear from you and thank you for reading the Arabic article and your kind evaluation. You inspired and contibuted to several of the points in the article. I remembered and experienced the following amazing signs last night with my family
084.016
YUSUFALI So I do call to witness the ruddy glow of Sunset;
PICKTHAL Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,
SHAKIR But nay! I swear by the sunset redness,Right after sunset we went out to witness the scorching full moon. We looked in the direction where the sunsets and saw the red afterglow of the sunset.
084.017
YUSUFALI The Night and its Homing;
PICKTHAL And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,
SHAKIR And the night and that which it drives on,We turned to the directly opposite direction where the darkest part of the sky is and where darkness seems to be spreading from.
084.018
YUSUFALI And the Moon in her fullness
PICKTHAL And by the moon when she is at the full,
SHAKIR And the moon when it grows full,From that direction where darkness spreads, after a few minutes, we saw the scorching full-moon slowly rising.
http//i47.tinypic.com/2nqe0yh.jpg
Living and experiencing those signs was amazing.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
Hope
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Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
Hope
there are only 144 pages, just go thorough them quickly to have a good understanding!
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Peace all
I saw the red moon last night and thought what an unusual red and big moon. I did not think much of it till I read this thread. So if what I have read is correct, we are suppose to fast for 3 to 5 days from seeing the moon? Can someone explain the significants in small bullet points as a summary? There is so much I need to learn its a little mind blowing. Thanks in advance.
May Allah guide us to the truth.
Peace
ONly read this artical no need to go through all pages.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9188.0
Hope
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Peace, about 140 of them are circular arguments. But thanks for pointing out the obvious
obvious is the most difficult but you are welcome!
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but she must know all the arguments not just that one post!